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4878Re: [mythsoc] Digest Number 785

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  • Steve Schaper
    Dec 31, 2001
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      > Message: 2
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:49:59 -0800 (PST)
      > From: Steve Dufour <stevejdufour@...>
      > Subject: Re: pronunciation of "Isildur"
      > Thanks Carl, I also don't like the
      > way they said "Mordor", based on how I think "in the
      > land of Mordor where the shadows lie" and "for into
      > darkness fell his star, in Mordor where the shadows
      > are' should sound.

      Maybe they were getting Za'ha'dum and Mordor mixed up, just as Aragorn resembled another Ranger. . .

      Message: 4

      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:03:18 -0000
      > From: "michael_martinez2" <michael@...>
      > Subject: Re: More JRRT items
      > Good lord. It's hard to find a chapter where spellcasting doesn't go
      > on in the book. Gandalf casts spells,


      > the Lord of the Nazgul casts
      > spells,


      > the Elves cast spells.


      > There is even debate over whether
      > Aragorn's chanting is some sort of spell.

      Well, since you said it, and I don't agree, then I suppose there is.

      > So, when Tom sings his songs, and the Hobbits summon him, we're to
      > excuse these from the list of specllcasting activities. Why?

      Well, if prayers and the Bell Device are magic, then I guess they must be.

      > Message: 5
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:07:10 -0000
      > From: "michael_martinez2" <michael@...>
      > --Message: 6
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:09:32 -0000
      > From: "michael_martinez2" <michael@...>
      > Subject: Re: Hal's walking tree
      > Just because a tree walks does not mean it is an Ent.

      It does in the Matter of Middle-earth. Maybe not in Matter of Oz.

      > Message: 8
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:42:18 -0600
      > From: David Lenander <d-lena@...>
      > Subject: If it quacks like an ent
      > You know, my first reaction to this remark was "if it walks like an Ent then it must be a duck" But does it quack? Actually, I think that Tolkien would insist that it must TALK like an Ent before it was an Ent.

      Yes, but Hal saw something that he reported that reached Sam's ears as "as tall as a tree". For all we know, it was a troll. Or an entwife, or an ent. But not a plant.

      > edition, maybe it would change again: instead of a Black Rider or Gandalf, maybe it would be a new Ranger, or ?? I'd guess that Tom Bombadil knows all about the Entwives living nearby.

      Sure, but Fangorn -doesn't- know, and tragically, may never find out, alas. I like your interp.

      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:08:53 -0800
      > From: "David S. Bratman" <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: More JRRT items

      > Magical "spying", I presume you mean the palantiri. These, interestingly
      > enough, are kept secret and are known to very few. Not a characteristic of
      > a world which considers such magical objects to be everyday items.

      And they were -made- by Feanor (possibly) under the tutalege of the Valar. Why should one assume it involves unclean spirits (magic) as opposed to "sufficiently advanced technology"?

      > "Spying" as distinct from "scrying"? To what are you referring? The
      > crebain that fly over Hollin? Those are naturally sapient animals,

      Indeed, there are crows in the Pacific that make more advanced tools than do chimpanzees.

      > OK, there's a magical door with a password in
      > LOTR. One.

      Why would a voice-activated lock be considered magic to we who live in the oughts?

      > Message: 16
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:10:04 -0800
      > From: "David S. Bratman" <dbratman@...>
      > Subject: Re: If it quacks like an ent

      > But in at least one letter, Tolkien says not that the Ents never found the
      > Entwives again, but that they simply never did find "a land where both
      > their hearts may rest."

      Hmm. I wonder, would Cirdan have built ships for them, too?

      > Message: 17
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:53:22 -0500
      > From: "Christine Howlett" <chowlett@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: More JRRT items
      > I would have to agree with Michael that a more vocal handful of Christians
      > is reviling Potter and making Christians in general appear to be rather
      > silly (if not worse) just by general association.
      > ya-da-da, when these people have never so much as read a chapter. They just
      > heard it somewhere...

      Yeah, and they will not listen, either. -Very- frustrating.

      > Message: 18
      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:07:28 -0500
      > From: "Christine Howlett" <chowlett@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: More JRRT items
      > Having just re-read the last three of Rowling's books

      I just did that, too, and found that they read better the second time. First time was definitely "so-so".

      >Message: 21

      > Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:18:46 -0000
      > From: "michael_martinez2" <michael@...>
      > Subject: Re: More JRRT items
      > Let's see. Gandalf casts a spell in "A long-expected party" (he
      > produces that flash effect when Bilbo puts on the Ring). T

      Ah, yes, magnesium powder is -so- supernatural. Especially in a passage which already illustrates Gandalf's expert familiarity with black power, magnesium, tungsten and other useful substances in making fireworks.

      > hen there
      > are all the episodes with the Ring. Do its efforts to get Frodo to
      > put it on (or the Nazgul's efforts to get Frodo to put on the Ring)
      > count?

      So, temptation is magic now?

      > In "Three's Company", the Nazgul go sniffing and shrieking about the
      > Shire, doing their Nazgul thing. The Elves come along with their
      > enchanted lamps and walk around in their shimmering effect, and
      > finally start up their little feast fire in the shelter of their
      > strangely shaped trees.

      And we all know just how magical halos and topiary are.

      > In "The Old Forest" we meet Tom Bombadil, who sings Old Man Willow to
      > sleep and rescues the Hobbits.

      He has authority, not using goety.

      > In "In the House of Tom Bombadil" we get plenty of magical stuff.
      > Spellcasting? Hard to say. I suspect you won't allow any liberal
      > definitions of spellcasting.

      Authority again, whether Tom is Orome, or Adam, or Eru.

      > In "Fog on the Barrow-downs" we have the wight's incantation,

      Yes, and it is an evil spirit.

      > Frodo's
      > summons of Bombadil,

      Closer to prayer than anything else.

      > In "At the sign of the Prancing Pony" we hear how Merry is overcome
      > by the Black Breath (or is that in "Strider"?).

      Oppression, most likely, possibly extreme fear, or who knows? All sorts of non-supernatural possibilities.

      > In "A Knife in the Dark" there is the attack on Weathertop, where
      > Gandalf defends himself against the Nazgul.

      If spiritual warfare is magic, many an elderly lonely, praying widow is a mage of great power.

      This is somewhat tedious. You say you "asked Christ into your life" 30 years back. Since that is a very imprecise and unthelogical term, I am unsure what you mean, but your weltanschauung doesn't show the influence in this particular discussion.

      > It's not magical for an Elf to walk around. It may be magical for an
      > Elf to walk on top of snow. Certainly, no one else walks on snow,

      Well, not without snowshoes or skis, unless of course it is wind-drifted and hard as concrete. Or crusted by the sun, or.

      This has been rather in kind, I'm afraid, but you've really come off as very belligerant. :-(

      "A generation which ignores history has no past and no future."
      Robert Anson Heinlein

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