20034Re: Galadriel throws down the walls of Dol Guldur
- Aug 18, 2008--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
>two sense and I was going to make the same comparison that you did to
> John, I'm gald you responded to this, because I had meant to add my
Luthien undoing the spells that bound the stones together of Sauron's
tower on the former Tol Sirion. However, there is significant
editorial change that was made to this passage. As written by
Tolkien, in addition to demanding the Sauron yield the mastery of the
tower to her as the price for letting him go, Luthien also demanded
that he reveal to her "the spell that bindeth stone to stone."
Christopher Tolkien eliminated this statement and instead added two
paragraphs later the statement "and the spell was loosed that bound
stone to stone." Christopher concedes that "this rearrangement was
mistaken." (See The Lost Road, 300.)
>would have been much use to Galadriel in this task. Elrond tells us
> The other comment that I wanted to make is that I doubt that Nenya
that the Three Rings "were not made as weapons of war or conquest:
that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength
or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and
healing, to preserve all things unstained." I don't think that
Galadriel would have used Nenya to throw down the walls of Dol Guldur,
even if the Three Rings' power had not yet full dissipated. Rather, I
think that she used her inate "magical" powers. Tolkien makes some
very interesting comments about the use of magic in Letter 155, a
draft of a letter to Naomi Mitchison that was not included in the
version sent to her (the sent version is letter 154, which itself has
some very interesting ideas).
>there is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction
> "I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that
between magia and goeteia [this is defined in the O.E.D. as
'witchcraft or magic performed by the invocation and employment of
evil spirits; necromancy'] Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the
Enemy'. Well enough but magia could be, was, held good (per se), and
goetia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only
by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different
motives. The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it
specifically about it) domination of other 'free' wills. The Enemy's
operation are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that
produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to
bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and
subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia,
producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific
beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and
not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or
bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the
difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'."
>his Tale is not of the kind that can be developed through "lore" or
> Tolkien adds later in the passage that the "magic" that is used in
spells, but rather is an "inherent power not possessed or attainable
by Men as such." As one of the most powerful of all of the Elves,
Galadriel would likely have this "inherent power" to a high degree.
In my opinion, Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur was
simply an example of one of the primary Elves using magia for a
>of the Elves that Tolkien is referring to?
> The question that I have is: what is the "artistic" goetic effects
> ,----- Original Message -----
> From: John D Rateliff
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Galadriel throws down the walls of Dol Guldur
> Hi Steve
> Sorry for the delay in responding; I've been away and just got
> back. I think most of the other regular posters are at Mythcon this
> I interpret that passage to mean that after the Nazgul were
> destroyed, Celeborn's forces destroyed the remaining Mirkwood-host
> and that Galadriel herself then left Lorien to visit the spot. I
> don't think she rolled up her sleeves and let loose against the walls
> with a big hammer; rather, I parallel this passage with Luthien's
> casting down the Necromancer's Tower (the former Tol Sirion) in THE
> SILMARILLION. That is, I think she undid the spell that bound the
> place together, and that it crumbled and collapsed on the spot.
> It's not said that the Three Rings immediately wink out, but
> implied that they fade quickly. Destroying Dol Guldur would have been
> a good use of most of what remained of Nenya's power, leaving the
> world behind with a cleaner slate to start the new age ("Greenwood
> the Great").
> I hope this helps.
> On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:59 PM, al_fariis wrote:
> > There is a passage in Appendix B, Return of the King, in the
> > right after the March 3019 chronology that has me puzzled:work? The
> > "They (the Elves of Lorien) took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw
> > down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."
> > What does this mean? Was Tolkien saying that Galadriel herself
> > threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, or did she supervise the
> > three rings lost their power after the One Ring was destroyed, soothers will weigh in on this. I've had an image in my head of
> > Nenya could not have been used.
> > We'd love to be at MythCon this weekend, but barring a sudden change
> > in fortune, we'll have to miss this year.
> > Steve Gaddis
> Thank you to John and Doug for the enlightening responses; perhaps
Galadriel destroying the tower, as though it had been hit by an
invisible wave of water, in keeping with Nenya being the Ring of
Water. I've done some rough sketches of the idea, but didn't want to
go much further without a clearer idea of just what Tolkien may have
intended-more reading and research to do!
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