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19425RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

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  • Mike Foster
    Feb 14, 2008
      David,
      Please don't take what I wrote as a disputation of or quarrel with your
      observations. I was addressing the original question of this thread,
      which was whether or not Tolkien was a pacifist, which was the topic as
      it originally appeared. I used the text because it was handy, and
      "Conclude what you will" was a plural "you," addressed to the readers of
      this thread related to the question of JRRT's pacifism. Whether he was
      or was not-and I think he loathed war but realized that sometimes wars
      must be fought-he revised his story so that Frodo was not a warrior in
      the scouring of the shire, but rather one who sought to prevent needless
      bloodshed.

      Without a shake,
      Mike

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of David Bratman
      Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:47 AM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

      Mike -

      You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you're disputing
      something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be.

      Frodo's odd and inappropriate behavior was, as I said, in the first
      draft, not the final draft. And then, as I wrote, "It took Tolkien's
      conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing." But
      when he figured it out, he wrote the excellent final text that you
      quote. Now isn't that marvelous, perhaps even more so than if he'd
      gotten it right the first time?

      "Conclude what you will, the fact is ..." you write, but I never said
      otherwise. "That he revised [the story] is fact," you also write, as
      indeed it is fact, and I took the liberty of assuming readers of this
      list would know that, without my having to shake the Ballantine
      paperback edition of _The Return of the King_ at them.

      David B.

      -----Original Message-----
      >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net> net>
      >Sent: Feb 13, 2008 8:10 PM
      >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
      >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
      >
      >".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of
      Captains
      >Meriadoc and Peregrin.
      >"Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his
      chief
      >part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
      >from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."
      >
      >p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
      >Ballantine paperback edition.
      >
      >Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
      >that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
      >that he did so is fact.
      >
      >_Pax vobiscum_
      >Mike
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
      [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
      Behalf
      >Of David Bratman
      >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
      >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
      >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
      >
      >Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
      >Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
      >Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
      >It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his
      subconscious
      >was doing.
      >
      >Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
      >wrote:
      >
      >>--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
      >"Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
      >>>
      >>> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
      >_The
      >>> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
      >of
      >>> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
      >>> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
      >>>
      >>> --MAF
      >>
      >>I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
      >>conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
      >>sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
      >>Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
      >>battling hobbits--
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >



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