Re: [muslim-jewish] New poll for muslim-jewish
- Peace all,
I was originally compelled to write something on this list a couple of
months back when there were attempts to censor Hadani's writings. I
expressed my concern that any attempts to censor material should be made
public for all to discuss. The recent bannings are several orders of
magnitude worse than censorship of specific articles. I personally did not
find the exchange between Hadani/Aviel/Shiraz to be EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE to
what I would deem dialogue worthy of banishment. I hope that at least some
good will come of this incident in that any future action taken regarding
censorship/banning is discussed openly.
Shortly after joining the list, several incidents occurred which tried to
silence discussion of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. A new member by the
name of Bruce was summarily trounced for bringing up "the unholy alliance
between Israel and the U.S.". It was at this point that I considered leaving
the list, and it was only due to Hadani's postings that I stayed. She was
the only one willing to discuss issues that I feel can not be ignored in any
Muslim-Jewish peace effort. We can not ignore the fact that the conflict
remains the biggest obstacle to peace between Muslims and Jews.
I do not believe that this list should be devoted to the conflict, however,
I do not think it should be ignored or censored either. If our goal is
peace, true understanding, and friendship, then we should be able to discuss
any topic. Attempts at censorship or avoidance of difficult issues will only
breed mistrust. We can not be at peace with one another if we don't trust
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:45:13 -0800 rabs_80@... wrote:
> Bismilah Ar-Rahman, Ar-Raheem:
> Thanks Sumaayya for your intelligent insight. Some of the feelings and
> opinions I have about the purpose and potentiality for further
> dialogue have
> been articulated already by Maxine, Sumayya, Joel .R and Hadani, Haseena,
> Dave. G and a few others.. But I just want to say what I've been
> meaning to
> for a while now...
> I was definately quite turned off by the drama that ensued around the
> e-mails, the banning, the poll etc. I felt angry, unsafe and just plain
> weirded out. Here are my two dollars and fifty cents:
> Dialogue is ideally done face to face/in person and requires skilled
> facilitators to help establish common principles and to help the
> participants work towards creating a safe space. It is a real challenge to
> do well online when you may know nothing about the folks you are
> with. I think we can all appreciate how much is lost when "conversing' via
> the internet.
> I suggest that if this group is to continue, there should be regular
> meetings like the one avril and tabassum and shiraz and all of us have
> holding. Having conversed with Rabbi Mivasair about this, I know that this
> is something he wants to happen more often.
> Listening is a real and difficult skill (let alone *compassionate*
> listening).some people spend thier entire academic careers
> culitivating this
> skill...... through councelling and conflict resolution etc. ......I think
> there is a fine line between listening and choosing what you want to hear.
> More on this later.
> However, the side group that we do have going (although we are on 'hiatus'
> because of Ramadan) is already established, and I think that it would be
> good if the folks who are serious about dialogue and share prinicples on
> justice, truth, and what it means to be a person who values those
> and wants to put them into practice, would join. I think it is extremely
> important for those of us who meet to have a sincere desire for and
> appreaciation of dialogue and all that it entails. I understand that
> not everyone is ready to talk about politics. I don't think topics
> should be
> forced upon people to discuss if they don't want to, but like Maxine and
> others pointed out already, when it comes to the internet one can always
> delete the e-mail ,or, voice their opinion, whatever it may be. I
> think the
> latter is far more productive than being upset in silence and then
> complaining off list. What happened to Hadani was beyond ridiculous.
> But no
> need to emphasise the mistakes.....
> Sumayya, props to you for pointing out the importance of not limiting the
> scope of dialogue to superficial aspects of religion, language,culture
> Having been on this list from the beginning, I know that a lot of people
> agree with you and some of us have (like Hadani! Dave.G, Maxine and
> talked about things like anti-semitsim and terrorism, Sept 11. I really
> feel like our group should not be ahistorical or apolitical, even
> though we
> may not talk about those things straight away, because issues surrounding
> those subject areas will come up again, and I don't want to censor someone
> if she brings an issue to light and wants to discuss it in her own
> Hadani is someone who is of temendous value to this group, and I have to
> reiterate that I felt she was punished as though she comitted a crime,
> with Shiraz and Aviel. When I wasn't freaked out, I laughed. Anyways, I
> certainly do not wish to lash out at anyone here but I have to be true
> to my
> feelings and speak my mind/heart.
> I ,also, stress the importance of group decision making and the shared
> values( IF we share them, we need to discuss this obviously) we hold on
> principles like justice, and what our respective religions teach us about
> these principles. I think that is a starting point to dialogue, bridge
> building and working towards whatever it is that we want to do, especially
> because this is specifically a muslim-jewish list.
> O. k, that is all for now. Sorry if I rambled and didn't make sense.
> With Peace,
> >From: Sumayya K <sumayyak@...>
> >To: email@example.com
> >Subject: Re: [muslim-jewish] New poll for muslim-jewish
> >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:12:50 -0500 (EST)
> >Hi everyone -
> >I just wanted to quote something from Alan Woodland's email - I think its
> >very applicable..
> >"I would like to appeal to frustrated and
> >discouraged members that talking about the bannings is part of a
> >productive dialogue that effects change. Hopefully, a change for
> >the better."
> >now, substitute the word [bannings] above and put in absolutely any word
> >that resonates within you; israel/palestine, terrorism, racism, Daniel
> >Pipes, the Crusades, the education system in the Middle East, USA's
> >electoral system, Jerry Faldwell, you get the point..
> >Alan and everyone else - the same thing applies!! Therefore the
> concept of
> >banning someone when such a discussion (read: productive dialogue!)
> >(and i know this has been said and they've been unbanned but I just felt
> >the need to reiterate..) is, well, ridiculous! And what shocks me most is
> >the discussion didn't even get "vicious" or out of hand - it was like so
> >many discussions we've had before - honestly, it just totally baffles me.
> >So again, I stress the importance of *group* decisions in such a
> >- there can be no one individual with a monopoly over this discussion
> - are
> >we building bridges or putting up walls!
> >okay - enough - that's all been said already and i shall stop now.
> I'd also
> >like to re-emphasize the value of the perspective Hadani brings to this
> >discussion, and for those who are not comfortable with it - well, I
> >as Maxine said, you are not forced to read every message. But if you
> >believe in the greater value of what is being done here, then you
> will not
> >quit the list in exasperation but persevere. And if you have views
> that are
> >opposed to the ones posted here, then you should share them, so that
> we can
> >continue to have discussion.. even if it hurts. And **most importantly**
> >you - or rather, we, myself included - have to be ready to move
> outside our
> >comfort zone if we ever expect to make any progress. Everything we hear
> >will not conform to our predefined view of the world. And frankly, if
> >not ready to challenge that, then I don't think this is the right
> space for
> >us. We cannot come here looking for either - evidence to reconfirm our
> >preconceived beliefs - OR - little
> > tidbits that will soothe our hurtin' souls without getting beneath
> >surface issues..
> >I had the pleasure of meeting Rabia for the first time yesterday ;)
> and she
> >pointed out something very, very important: The peace that we crave can
> >only come with justice.
> >Think about it. (Please?) :)
> >and before I go .. I personally think if there's going to be some sort of
> >list owner/moderator, there should be a Muslim and a Jewish
> individual, not
> >because i have anything against Alan or because i happen to be
> Muslim, but
> >simply in order to ensure balance.
> >And lastly - thanks Ranza for sharing - great to hear from you :) !
> >Tiffany Gallaher <tgallaher@...> wrote:
> >I just want to say that I agree with Joel about the language of the
> >It felt incredibly weird - and the voting process itself on people - some
> >whom I have met - also feels very odd. I have not participated for that
> >reason. I too feel that the tone of the thread, while heated, was not
> >unusual and don't feel comfortable suddenly being given some kind of
> >right to make decisions about these people, who are my friends and
> >In the future, again, I agree with Joel - I think we need to revisit our
> >need to be very careful about how we confront people since we are not
> >dealing with them face to face. Shiraz, Hadani, and Aviel - I miss you!
> >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
If you read a book with more than one story in the book,
do you count each story as one book or
do you count the whole book as one book.
o I count each story as one book.
o I count the whole book as one book.
o Don't know.
To vote, please visit the following web page:
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.