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RE: [multimachine] portable mig welder/compressor

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  • Ken Basterfield
    What does SP & RP mean and I thought MIG stood for metal inert gas . How does gasless give the inert gas shroud? thanks ken _____ I ve stopped 2,204 spam and
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 28, 2009
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      What does SP & RP mean and I thought MIG stood for 'metal inert gas'. How does gasless give the inert gas shroud?
      thanks
      ken
       
       



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      -----Original Message-----
      From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Darwin Wandler
      Sent: 28 February 2009 20:59
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] portable mig welder/compressor

      Stick welders are CC constant current...MIG welders are CV constant
      voltage. This is why you cant just stick a mig feed on a stick welder. On
      a MIG you vary the voltage between 14 and 28 normally the range is 18 to
      24 volts. The commercial units have broader ranges. There are a number
      of ways to regulate the voltage. Discrete steps by having multi taps on
      the
      primary and secondary. Or use a Triac control on the input to the primary.
      Or any combination thereof. I wound a 230 transformer with good air gap
      so I could get a 100% duty cycle with a Triac input control. So I could use
      .045 wire for high current deep penetration welds.
      You have to rectify the output. Mig without gas uses SP while with gas uses
      RP (ground is negative) polarity.
      Darwin

      lspook30 wrote:
      >
      > I am wondering have any members saw or built a portable wire feed (mig)
      > welder. I am right now in the planning stages of building a combination
      > of a compressor and welder unit running off of 18 h.p briggs and
      > stratton motor for my feild service truck. I have salvaged a compressor
      > and tank that the electric motor is fried. I have seen homebuilt stick
      > welders built from alternators and I know they work but i already have
      > a stick welder and in really light sheet metal its tough to get a good
      > weld.The welder I am working on building would use a 80 amp delco
      > alternator driven by the motor. I plan on using flux cored wire so i
      > don't have to have a gas valve or bottle or line. A wire feed welder
      > relies on voltage around 36 volts or less which would be acheivable
      > with the alternator after building a regulator.The welding gun I have
      > not focused on a exact one yet, I have thought of buying or building a
      > spool gun but the size is a problem in some area's.A gun and cable can
      > be purchased fairly cheap also.Any thoughts or idea's?
      >
      >



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    • Pierre Coueffin
      SP and RP are Standard (sometimes Straight) and Reverse Polarity respectively. I prefer the terms DC Electrode Negative and DC Electrode Positive, because
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 1 12:12 PM
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        SP and RP are Standard (sometimes Straight) and Reverse Polarity
        respectively. I prefer the terms DC Electrode Negative and DC
        Electrode Positive, because there is less room for confusion. The
        purpose of messing with the polarity is to alter the depth of
        penetration. When the electrons jump, the heat builds up where they
        land. In a DCEN setup, the electrode gets hotter than the weld, this
        makes it easier to weld thin sheet metal without blowing holes in it.
        With DCEP, the heat builds up on the work piece, giving you deeper
        welds. With AC of course, the heat is distributed evenly, but the
        magnetic vibration of the rapidly alternating current tends to vibrate
        particles of flux and other crap to the surface, cleaning the weld.
        This is very desirable when welding aluminum and magnesium alloys.

        Gasless is a method of driving a flux-cored wire through a wire-feed
        gun similar to the gun used for MIG welding. The environment where
        the actual weld happens (the arc and surrounding area) resembles that
        used in stick welding, in that the flux melts and burns, and provides
        a temporary gas shield, and also hardens to form a layer of slag to
        exclude oxygen as the weld cools. As I understand it, the only real
        reason that they needed to devise flux-cored wire is that the flux
        would flake off of flux-coated wire as it coils on and off the spool
        and runs through the pinch rollers in the gun. Putting the metal on
        the outside keeps the flux where you want it, and also serves to help
        keep moisture out of the flux. This comes at the expense of more
        expensive filler material of course. I've seen guys run a flux cored
        welder to tack everything together for a big weld, and once it is
        solid, switch to an old school stick welder to fill in the bulk of the
        metal because of the cost difference. Also, those big old buzz boxes
        typically can push much more current, so they can burn fatter rods.
        This lets them fill in a larger volume of weld quickly.


        On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Ken Basterfield <ken@...> wrote:
        > What does SP & RP mean and I thought MIG stood for 'metal inert gas'. How
        > does gasless give the inert gas shroud?
        > thanks
        > ken
      • Paul
        ... Pierre, that doesn t tie in with my understanding of electron flow. Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive power source. This
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 1 1:07 PM
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          Pierre Coueffin wrote:
          >
          > SP and RP are Standard (sometimes Straight) and Reverse Polarity
          > respectively. I prefer the terms DC Electrode Negative and DC
          > Electrode Positive, because there is less room for confusion. The
          > purpose of messing with the polarity is to alter the depth of
          > penetration. When the electrons jump, the heat builds up where they
          > land. In a DCEN setup, the electrode gets hotter than the weld...

          Pierre, that doesn't tie in with my understanding of electron flow.
          Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive
          power source. This name stems from the days before anyone really
          understood what electricity was. Later on it was discovered that
          electrons being negative they flow from the negative terminal.

          So when you discuss DC Electrode Negative the flow of electrons is
          from the negative to the positive, and in a welding situation are
          flowing from the handpiece to the work.

          Thus if they are heating the most where they land, why do you say
          that the electrode gets hotter than the work?

          Paul
        • Greg and April
          Personally - I always thought that they should have flipped the definition of positive and negative around to match actual flow, rather than try and continue
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 1 5:00 PM
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            Personally - I always thought that they should have flipped the definition
            of positive and negative around to match actual flow, rather than try and
            continue to try and teach people that something flows from a minus sign to a
            positive sign, when the rest of the time there is more of something with a
            positive sign, than with a minus sign, which normally means the lack of.

            Greg H.
            .

            Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is
            something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

            .
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Paul" <self.adhesive@...>
            To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 14:07
            Subject: [multimachine] Re: portable mig welder/compressor


            > Pierre Coueffin wrote:
            >>
            >> SP and RP are Standard (sometimes Straight) and Reverse Polarity
            >> respectively. I prefer the terms DC Electrode Negative and DC
            >> Electrode Positive, because there is less room for confusion. The
            >> purpose of messing with the polarity is to alter the depth of
            >> penetration. When the electrons jump, the heat builds up where they
            >> land. In a DCEN setup, the electrode gets hotter than the weld...
            >
            > Pierre, that doesn't tie in with my understanding of electron flow.
            > Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive
            > power source. This name stems from the days before anyone really
            > understood what electricity was. Later on it was discovered that
            > electrons being negative they flow from the negative terminal.
            >
            > So when you discuss DC Electrode Negative the flow of electrons is
            > from the negative to the positive, and in a welding situation are
            > flowing from the handpiece to the work.
            >
            > Thus if they are heating the most where they land, why do you say
            > that the electrode gets hotter than the work?
            >
            > Paul
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Ken Basterfield
            Paul & Pierre, Thanks, both of you, I understand now Ken _____ I ve stopped 2,207 spam and fraud messages. You can too! Free trial of spam and fraud
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1 11:47 PM
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              Paul & Pierre,
              Thanks, both of you, I understand  now
              Ken
               
               



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              -----Original Message-----
              From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
              Sent: 01 March 2009 21:08
              To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [multimachine] Re: portable mig welder/compressor

              Pierre Coueffin wrote:
              >
              > SP and RP are Standard (sometimes Straight) and Reverse Polarity
              > respectively. I prefer the terms DC Electrode Negative and DC
              > Electrode Positive, because there is less room for confusion. The
              > purpose of messing with the polarity is to alter the depth of
              > penetration. When the electrons jump, the heat builds up where they
              > land. In a DCEN setup, the electrode gets hotter than the weld...

              Pierre, that doesn't tie in with my understanding of electron flow.
              Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive
              power source. This name stems from the days before anyone really
              understood what electricity was. Later on it was discovered that
              electrons being negative they flow from the negative terminal.

              So when you discuss DC Electrode Negative the flow of electrons is
              from the negative to the positive, and in a welding situation are
              flowing from the handpiece to the work.

              Thus if they are heating the most where they land, why do you say
              that the electrode gets hotter than the work?

              Paul



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            • Darwin Wandler
              SP is straight polarity...RP is reverse Polarity. It is defined as the direction that electrons flow , the opposite to Benjamin Franklin s conventional current
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 2 5:29 PM
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                SP is straight polarity...RP is reverse Polarity. It is defined as the
                direction
                that electrons flow , the opposite to Benjamin Franklin's conventional
                current flow which is + to -. So RP is torch head +ve and ground negative
                and SP is torch head -ve and ground positive.
                Gasless has a flux core in the centre of the wire.

                Darwin

                Ken Basterfield wrote:
                >
                > What does SP & RP mean and I thought MIG stood for 'metal inert gas'.
                > How does gasless give the inert gas shroud?
                > thanks
                > ken
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > I've stopped *2,204* spam and fraud messages. You can too!
                > Free trial of spam and fraud protection at www.cloudmark.com
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                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > *From:* multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Darwin Wandler
                > *Sent:* 28 February 2009 20:59
                > *To:* multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                > *Subject:* Re: [multimachine] portable mig welder/compressor
                >
                > Stick welders are CC constant current...MIG welders are CV constant
                > voltage. This is why you cant just stick a mig feed on a stick
                > welder. On
                > a MIG you vary the voltage between 14 and 28 normally the range is
                > 18 to
                > 24 volts. The commercial units have broader ranges. There are a number
                > of ways to regulate the voltage. Discrete steps by having multi
                > taps on
                > the
                > primary and secondary. Or use a Triac control on the input to the
                > primary.
                > Or any combination thereof. I wound a 230 transformer with good
                > air gap
                > so I could get a 100% duty cycle with a Triac input control. So I
                > could use
                > .045 wire for high current deep penetration welds.
                > You have to rectify the output. Mig without gas uses SP while with
                > gas uses
                > RP (ground is negative) polarity.
                > Darwin
                >
                > lspook30 wrote:
                > >
                > > I am wondering have any members saw or built a portable wire
                > feed (mig)
                > > welder. I am right now in the planning stages of building a
                > combination
                > > of a compressor and welder unit running off of 18 h.p briggs and
                > > stratton motor for my feild service truck. I have salvaged a
                > compressor
                > > and tank that the electric motor is fried. I have seen homebuilt
                > stick
                > > welders built from alternators and I know they work but i
                > already have
                > > a stick welder and in really light sheet metal its tough to get
                > a good
                > > weld.The welder I am working on building would use a 80 amp delco
                > > alternator driven by the motor. I plan on using flux cored wire so i
                > > don't have to have a gas valve or bottle or line. A wire feed welder
                > > relies on voltage around 36 volts or less which would be acheivable
                > > with the alternator after building a regulator.The welding gun I
                > have
                > > not focused on a exact one yet, I have thought of buying or
                > building a
                > > spool gun but the size is a problem in some area's.A gun and
                > cable can
                > > be purchased fairly cheap also.Any thoughts or idea's?
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > This email has been scanned by Netintelligence
                > http://www.netintelligence.com/email
                > <http://www.netintelligence.com/email>
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date:
                > 02/27/09 13:27:00
                >
                >
              • Lance
                There is a difference if you consider the electron flow within the power source and within the external circuit. The power source uses energy to remove
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 2 7:03 PM
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                  There is a difference if you consider the electron
                  flow within the power source and within the external circuit.

                  The power source uses energy to remove electrons from the +
                  electrode and move them INTERNALLY to the negative electrode.
                  This creates the potential difference between the electrodes. 

                  The electrons have potential energy whilst on the electrode
                  and that changes to kinetic energy as they move. They collide with
                  air ( spark) and the landing zone metal.
                  The kinetic energy is converted via collision to
                  heat in the landing zone.

                  The electrons move off the neg electrode through the work
                  to the ground. 

                  lance
                  ++++


                  On Mar 1, 2009, at 4:07 PM, Paul wrote:

                  <snip>

                  Pierre, that doesn't tie in with my understanding of electron flow. 
                  Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive 
                  power source. This name stems from the days before anyone really 
                  understood what electricity was. Later on it was discovered that 
                  electrons being negative they flow from the negative terminal.


                • Darwin Wandler
                  Electrons DO NOT flow from + to - it is the opposite. Electrons flow -ve to +ve holes or protons in the case of welding or plasma move + to -. This is why
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 3 3:56 PM
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                    Electrons DO NOT flow from + to - it is the opposite. Electrons flow
                    -ve to +ve holes or protons in the case of welding or plasma move
                    + to -. This is why plasma cutters ground is +. Electrons are stripped
                    from the atoms withing the torch head and superheat the surface of the
                    metal being cut then the air plasma is blasted from the torch by air
                    pressure through the metal. If you want more detail look up the PN
                    junction of a diode
                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-n_junction#Properties_of_a_p-n_junction

                    Darwin
                    Lance wrote:
                    >
                    > There is a difference if you consider the electron
                    >
                    > flow within the power source and within the external circuit.
                    >
                    > The power source uses energy to remove electrons from the +
                    > electrode and move them INTERNALLY to the negative electrode.
                    > This creates the potential difference between the electrodes.
                    >
                    > The electrons have potential energy whilst on the electrode
                    > and that changes to kinetic energy as they move. They collide with
                    > air ( spark) and the landing zone metal.
                    > The kinetic energy is converted via collision to
                    > heat in the landing zone.
                    >
                    > The electrons move off the neg electrode through the work
                    > to the ground.
                    >
                    > lance
                    > ++++
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mar 1, 2009, at 4:07 PM, Paul wrote:
                    >
                    >> <snip>
                    >>
                    >> Pierre, that doesn't tie in with my understanding of electron flow.
                    >> Conventional current holds that electrons come out of the positive
                    >> power source. This name stems from the days before anyone really
                    >> understood what electricity was. Later on it was discovered that
                    >> electrons being negative they flow from the negative terminal.
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                  • Lance
                    Darwin, If you make an electrochemical cell of Zn and Cu, the zinc anode gives up the electrons to the external circuit (-) . The zinc electrode dissolves as
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 3 7:39 PM
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                      Darwin,

                      If you make an electrochemical cell of Zn and Cu,
                      the zinc anode gives up the electrons to the 
                      external circuit (-) . The zinc electrode dissolves as zinc ions
                      into the electrolyte.

                      The electrons move through the external circuit doing work
                      and reenter the cell at the cathode (+) Cu side. The electrons
                      reduce the Cu+2 ions in the electrolyte, reducing the net
                      + charge in the Cu half cell, whilst the Zn+2 ion conc is increasing
                      in the zinc half cell.

                      The Zn ions migrate thought the cell membrane into the
                      Cu half cell until equilibrium is reached.

                      The negative electrons move through the external circuit,
                      positive ions move through the internal circuit., both towards the Cu half cell.
                      With the advent of holes and n/p junctions, +ion flow to the left can be
                      considered as -electron flow to the right.

                      In a generator, alternator or other device powered circuit,
                       the electrons flow -ve to +ve in the external circuit, 
                      but something else happens in the internal circuit.

                      lance
                      ++++

                      On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:56 PM, Darwin Wandler wrote:

                      Electrons DO NOT flow from + to - it is the opposite. Electrons flow
                      -ve to +ve holes or protons in the case of welding or plasma move
                      + to -. This is why plasma cutters ground is +. Electrons are stripped
                      from the atoms withing the torch head and superheat the surface of the
                      metal being cut then the air plasma is blasted from the torch by air
                      pressure through the metal. If you want more detail look up the PN
                      junction of a diode
                      http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ P-n_junction# Properties_ of_a_p-n_ junction

                      Darwin
                      Lance wrote:
                      >
                      > There is a difference if you consider the electron
                      >
                      > flow within the power source and within the external circuit.
                      >
                      > The power source uses energy to remove electrons from the +
                      > electrode and move them INTERNALLY to the negative electrode.
                      > This creates the potential difference between the electrodes. 
                      >
                      > The electrons have potential energy whilst on the electrode
                      > and that changes to kinetic energy as they move. They collide with
                      > air ( spark) and the landing zone metal.
                      > The kinetic energy is converted via collision to
                      > heat in the landing zone.
                      >
                      > The electrons move off the neg electrode through the work
                      > to the ground. 
                      >
                      > lance
                      > ++++
                      >

                    • Darwin Wandler
                      Yeah! Once you get into the chemistry/physics at the atomic level you need to approach it from the quantum level. Batteries for example have an internal
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 5 4:22 PM
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                        Yeah! Once you get into the chemistry/physics at the atomic level you need
                        to approach it from the quantum level. Batteries for example have an
                        internal
                        resistance directly related to the chemical reaction. Chemists talk in
                        cations
                        and anions which give up and attach electrons related to electric
                        terminology but the cations and anions moving about are used because
                        they are not precisely related to the physics of electron transfer. It
                        avoids
                        getting into unnecessary atomic discussion when doing chemistry.
                        One is related to the other but to avoid/create confusion quantum physics
                        are used to accurately explain what is happening at the atomic level.
                        Einstein spent the majority of his life trying to unify the forces of
                        gravity,
                        electric, magnetic, plasma and atomic quantum physics into the energy
                        equation.

                        Darwin

                        Lance wrote:
                        >
                        > Darwin,
                        >
                        >
                        > If you make an electrochemical cell of Zn and Cu,
                        > the zinc anode gives up the electrons to the
                        > external circuit (-) . The zinc electrode dissolves as zinc ions
                        > into the electrolyte.
                        >
                        > The electrons move through the external circuit doing work
                        > and reenter the cell at the cathode (+) Cu side. The electrons
                        > reduce the Cu+2 ions in the electrolyte, reducing the net
                        > + charge in the Cu half cell, whilst the Zn+2 ion conc is increasing
                        > in the zinc half cell.
                        >
                        > The Zn ions migrate thought the cell membrane into the
                        > Cu half cell until equilibrium is reached.
                        >
                        > The negative electrons move through the external circuit,
                        > positive ions move through the internal circuit., both towards the Cu
                        > half cell.
                        > With the advent of holes and n/p junctions, +ion flow to the left can be
                        > considered as -electron flow to the right.
                        >
                        > In a generator, alternator or other device powered circuit,
                        > the electrons flow -ve to +ve in the external circuit,
                        > but something else happens in the internal circuit.
                        >
                        > lance
                        > ++++
                        >
                        > On Mar 3, 2009, at 6:56 PM, Darwin Wandler wrote:
                        >
                        >> Electrons DO NOT flow from + to - it is the opposite. Electrons flow
                        >> -ve to +ve holes or protons in the case of welding or plasma move
                        >> + to -. This is why plasma cutters ground is +. Electrons are stripped
                        >> from the atoms withing the torch head and superheat the surface of the
                        >> metal being cut then the air plasma is blasted from the torch by air
                        >> pressure through the metal. If you want more detail look up the PN
                        >> junction of a diode
                        >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-n_junction#Properties_of_a_p-n_junction
                        >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-n_junction#Properties_of_a_p-n_junction>
                        >>
                        >> Darwin
                        >> Lance wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> > There is a difference if you consider the electron
                        >> >
                        >> > flow within the power source and within the external circuit.
                        >> >
                        >> > The power source uses energy to remove electrons from the +
                        >> > electrode and move them INTERNALLY to the negative electrode.
                        >> > This creates the potential difference between the electrodes.
                        >> >
                        >> > The electrons have potential energy whilst on the electrode
                        >> > and that changes to kinetic energy as they move. They collide with
                        >> > air ( spark) and the landing zone metal.
                        >> > The kinetic energy is converted via collision to
                        >> > heat in the landing zone.
                        >> >
                        >> > The electrons move off the neg electrode through the work
                        >> > to the ground.
                        >> >
                        >> > lance
                        >> > ++++
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >
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