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Re: aybe I need to think about this

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  • drpshops
    ... Because ... along ... he ... something ... becomes ... what ... with ... new ... way ... the ... curse ... a ... in ... to ... how ... in ... ultimately
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 1, 2008
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      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The New York Times
      > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
      >
      > December 30, 2007
      > Bright Ideas
      > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
      > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
      >
      > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise increase,
      > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
      Because
      > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
      along
      > with our experience.
      >
      > Andrew S. Grove, the co-founder of Intel, put it well in 2005 when
      he
      > told an interviewer from Fortune, "When everybody knows that
      something
      > is so, it means that nobody knows nothin'." In other words, it
      becomes
      > nearly impossible to look beyond what you know and think outside the
      > box you've built around yourself.
      >
      > This so-called curse of knowledge, a phrase used in a 1989 paper in
      > The Journal of Political Economy, means that once you've become an
      > expert in a particular subject, it's hard to imagine not knowing
      what
      > you do. Your conversations with others in the field are peppered
      with
      > catch phrases and jargon that are foreign to the uninitiated. When
      > it's time to accomplish a task — open a store, build a house, buy
      new
      > cash registers, sell insurance — those in the know get it done the
      way
      > it has always been done, stifling innovation as they barrel along
      the
      > well-worn path.
      >
      > Elizabeth Newton, a psychologist, conducted an experiment on the
      curse
      > of knowledge while working on her doctorate at Stanford in 1990. She
      > gave one set of people, called "tappers," a list of commonly known
      > songs from which to choose. Their task was to rap their knuckles on
      a
      > tabletop to the rhythm of the chosen tune as they thought about it
      in
      > their heads. A second set of people, called "listeners," were asked
      to
      > name the songs.
      >
      > Before the experiment began, the tappers were asked how often they
      > believed that the listeners would name the songs correctly. On
      > average, tappers expected listeners to get it right about half the
      > time. In the end, however, listeners guessed only 3 of 120 songs
      > tapped out, or 2.5 percent.
      >
      > The tappers were astounded. The song was so clear in their minds;
      how
      > could the listeners not "hear" it in their taps?
      >
      > That's a common reaction when experts set out to share their ideas
      in
      > the business world, too, says Chip Heath, who with his brother, Dan,
      > was a co-author of the 2007 book "Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas
      > Survive and Others Die." It's why engineers design products
      ultimately
      > useful only to other engineers. It's why managers have trouble
      > convincing the rank and file to adopt new processes. And it's why
      the
      > advertising world struggles to convey commercial messages to
      consumers.
      >
      > "I HAVE a DVD remote control with 52 buttons on it, and every one of
      > them is there because some engineer along the line knew how to use
      > that button and believed I would want to use it, too," Mr. Heath
      says.
      > "People who design products are experts cursed by their knowledge,
      and
      > they can't imagine what it's like to be as ignorant as the rest of
      us."
      >
      > But there are proven ways to exorcise the curse.
      >
      > In their book, the Heath brothers outline six "hooks" that they say
      > are guaranteed to communicate a new idea clearly by transforming it
      > into what they call a Simple Unexpected Concrete Credentialed
      > Emotional Story. Each of the letters in the resulting acronym,
      Succes,
      > refers to a different hook. ("S," for example, suggests simplifying
      > the message.) Although the hooks of "Made to Stick" focus on the art
      > of communication, there are ways to fashion them around fostering
      > innovation.
      >
      > To innovate, Mr. Heath says, you have to bring together people with
      a
      > variety of skills. If those people can't communicate clearly with
      one
      > another, innovation gets bogged down in the abstract language of
      > specialization and expertise. "It's kind of like the ugly American
      > tourist trying to get across an idea in another country by speaking
      > English slowly and more loudly," he says. "You've got to find the
      > common connections."
      >
      > In her 2006 book, "Innovation Killer: How What We Know Limits What
      We
      > Can Imagine — and What Smart Companies Are Doing About It," Cynthia
      > Barton Rabe proposes bringing in outsiders whom she calls zero-
      gravity
      > thinkers to keep creativity and innovation on track.
      >
      > When experts have to slow down and go back to basics to bring an
      > outsider up to speed, she says, "it forces them to look at their
      world
      > differently and, as a result, they come up with new solutions to old
      > problems."
      >
      > She cites as an example the work of a colleague at Ralston Purina
      who
      > moved to Eveready in the mid-1980s when Ralston bought that company.
      > At the time, Eveready had become a household name because of its
      sales
      > since the 1950s of inexpensive red plastic and metal flashlights.
      But
      > by the mid-1980s, the flashlight business, which had been aimed
      solely
      > at men shopping at hardware stores, was foundering.
      >
      > While Ms. Rabe's colleague had no experience with flashlights, she
      did
      > have plenty of experience in consumer packaging and marketing from
      her
      > years at Ralston Purina. She proceeded to revamp the flashlight
      > product line to include colors like pink, baby blue and light
      green —
      > colors that would appeal to women — and began distributing them
      > through grocery store chains.
      >
      > "It was not incredibly popular as a decision amongst the old guard
      at
      > Eveready," Ms. Rabe says. But after the changes, she says, "the
      > flashlight business took off and was wildly successful for many
      years
      > after that."
      >
      > MS. RABE herself experienced similar problems while working as a
      > transient "zero-gravity thinker" at Intel.
      >
      > "I would ask my very, very basic questions," she said, noting that
      it
      > frustrated some of the people who didn't know her. Once they got
      past
      > that point, however, "it always turned out that we could come up
      with
      > some terrific ideas," she said.
      >
      > While Ms. Rabe usually worked inside the companies she discussed in
      > her book, she said outside consultants could also serve the
      > zero-gravity role, but only if their expertise was not identical to
      > that of the group already working on the project.
      >
      > "Look for people with renaissance-thinker tendencies, who've done
      work
      > in a related area but not in your specific field," she says. "Make
      it
      > possible for someone who doesn't report directly to that area to
      come
      > in and say the emperor has no clothes."
      >
      > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
      > Silicon Valley.
      >Hello Pat
      What does this mean?
      The Multi-machine does not have enought buttons to push,and should
      be painted In some bright colors, instead of machinery gray?
      Maybe it should have a flashlight holder?
      I am not sure about the problem. I am still thinking about it.
      Keith
    • Bob L
      ... I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and have been wondering why most of the members, from their messages and pictures, have been
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 7, 2008
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        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...> wrote:

        >
        > The New York Times
        > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
        >
        > December 30, 2007
        > Bright Ideas
        > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
        > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
        >
        > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise increase,
        > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why? Because
        > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening along
        > with our experience.

        I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and have been wondering why most of the members, from their messages and pictures, have been reinventing the wheel so to speak.

        I have been a machinist/modelmaker/jigborer/designer since 1960. I'm retired now but still enjoy creating stuff in my garage shop.

        A number of years ago, I subscribed to a machinist magazine. It was mostly geared towards beginners, but some of the projects were interesting. I even threatened to build a dividing head, but later found one on EBAY at a price where it just didn't make sense to get involved in the intensive labor involved in fabricating one. There was one article that I thought was a little on the ridiculous side. The guy actually went to a junkyard, picked around, and bought some pieces of boilerplate, went home and machined thread cutting taps from it. Hello,,, taps made from the finest high speed steel can be bought for a few bucks. Why expend the effort? I don't know.

        Okay, from the standpoint of building a Multimachine, just to say, " I started with junk and made a working machine," I think it's justified as a hobby. If you intend to later fabricate parts for profit with the machine, then the effort probably is not justified. A decent milling machine can be picked up for under two grand!

        I hear what you are saying about thinking out of the box. I also know that lay people conceive most of the worlds inventions. By the same token, making something that can be bought is not always cost effective. In my trade, we always said, "if it can be bought, don't make it." "Make things that can't be bought!"

        Bob

         

      • cvlac
        Hi Bob First you must undestand that this group is targeted to people that is not so experenced and not even profesionist machinists.By building a MM someone
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 8, 2008
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          Hi Bob
          First you must undestand that this group is targeted to people that
          is not so experenced and not even profesionist machinists.By
          building a MM someone must be faced to all these problems and learn a
          lots of how to...Then in a lot of places of the wold , it is more
          easy to find scrap and not ready prefabricated machine parts. And
          finaly, personaly I think that if for every think that I need I must
          buy some Chinese prefabricated low cost part, I help the hole
          phenomenon of disindustrialisation of our countries that believe me
          it is not a very good thing.From the other side, if someone must
          build a machine to help him as a professionist,he needs some very
          spedy ways to do it ,(time counts more than money).Personaly I think
          that in an isolated place it is more easy to build a MM than to buy
          one.It's a question of compromise to do between avalability fo three
          things :time, money,and mechanical parts reperability.
          Costas

          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Bob L" <nffs3@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@> wrote:
          > >
          > > The New York Times
          > > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
          > >
          > > December 30, 2007
          > > Bright Ideas
          > > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
          > > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
          > >
          > > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise
          increase,
          > > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
          Because
          > > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
          along
          > > with our experience.
          >
          > I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and have
          been
          > wondering why most of the members, from their messages and pictures,
          > have been reinventing the wheel so to speak.
          >
          > I have been a machinist/modelmaker/jigborer/designer since 1960. I'm
          > retired now but still enjoy creating stuff in my garage shop.
          >
          > A number of years ago, I subscribed to a machinist magazine. It was
          > mostly geared towards beginners, but some of the projects were
          > interesting. I even threatened to build a dividing head, but later
          found
          > one on EBAY at a price where it just didn't make sense to get
          involved
          > in the intensive labor involved in fabricating one. There was one
          > article that I thought was a little on the ridiculous side. The guy
          > actually went to a junkyard, picked around, and bought some pieces
          of
          > boilerplate, went home and machined thread cutting taps from it.
          > Hello,,, taps made from the finest high speed steel can be bought
          for a
          > few bucks. Why expend the effort? I don't know.
          >
          > Okay, from the standpoint of building a Multimachine, just to say, "
          > I started with junk and made a working machine," I think it's
          > justified as a hobby. If you intend to later fabricate parts for
          profit
          > with the machine, then the effort probably is not justified. A
          decent
          > milling machine can be picked up for under two grand!
          >
          > I hear what you are saying about thinking out of the box. I also
          know
          > that lay people conceive most of the worlds inventions. By the same
          > token, making something that can be bought is not always cost
          effective.
          > In my trade, we always said, "if it can be bought, don't make
          > it." "Make things that can't be bought!"
          >
          > Bob
          >
        • Pat Delany
          Thanks Costas As usual someone said it better than I can! Pat
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 8, 2008
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            Thanks Costas
            As usual someone said it better than I can!

            Pat

            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "cvlac" <cvlac0@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Bob
            > First you must undestand that this group is targeted to people that
            > is not so experenced and not even profesionist machinists.By
            > building a MM someone must be faced to all these problems and learn a
            > lots of how to...Then in a lot of places of the wold , it is more
            > easy to find scrap and not ready prefabricated machine parts. And
            > finaly, personaly I think that if for every think that I need I must
            > buy some Chinese prefabricated low cost part, I help the hole
            > phenomenon of disindustrialisation of our countries that believe me
            > it is not a very good thing.From the other side, if someone must
            > build a machine to help him as a professionist,he needs some very
            > spedy ways to do it ,(time counts more than money).Personaly I think
            > that in an isolated place it is more easy to build a MM than to buy
            > one.It's a question of compromise to do between avalability fo three
            > things :time, money,and mechanical parts reperability.
            > Costas
            >
            > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Bob L" <nffs3@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > The New York Times
            > > > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
            > > >
            > > > December 30, 2007
            > > > Bright Ideas
            > > > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
            > > > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
            > > >
            > > > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise
            > increase,
            > > > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
            > Because
            > > > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
            > along
            > > > with our experience.
            > >
            > > I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and have
            > been
            > > wondering why most of the members, from their messages and pictures,
            > > have been reinventing the wheel so to speak.
            > >
            > > I have been a machinist/modelmaker/jigborer/designer since 1960. I'm
            > > retired now but still enjoy creating stuff in my garage shop.
            > >
            > > A number of years ago, I subscribed to a machinist magazine. It was
            > > mostly geared towards beginners, but some of the projects were
            > > interesting. I even threatened to build a dividing head, but later
            > found
            > > one on EBAY at a price where it just didn't make sense to get
            > involved
            > > in the intensive labor involved in fabricating one. There was one
            > > article that I thought was a little on the ridiculous side. The guy
            > > actually went to a junkyard, picked around, and bought some pieces
            > of
            > > boilerplate, went home and machined thread cutting taps from it.
            > > Hello,,, taps made from the finest high speed steel can be bought
            > for a
            > > few bucks. Why expend the effort? I don't know.
            > >
            > > Okay, from the standpoint of building a Multimachine, just to say, "
            > > I started with junk and made a working machine," I think it's
            > > justified as a hobby. If you intend to later fabricate parts for
            > profit
            > > with the machine, then the effort probably is not justified. A
            > decent
            > > milling machine can be picked up for under two grand!
            > >
            > > I hear what you are saying about thinking out of the box. I also
            > know
            > > that lay people conceive most of the worlds inventions. By the same
            > > token, making something that can be bought is not always cost
            > effective.
            > > In my trade, we always said, "if it can be bought, don't make
            > > it." "Make things that can't be bought!"
            > >
            > > Bob
            > >
            >
          • GARY COLDIRON
            I have lurked here for along time looking for some thing to comment on.All I can say about Bob s comments are here,here,I agree 100%,Gary ... From: Bob L To:
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 8, 2008
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              I have lurked here for along time looking for some thing to comment on.All I can say about Bob's comments are here,here,I agree 100%,Gary
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Bob L
              Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:39 AM
              Subject: [multimachine] Re: aybe I need to think about this


              --- In multimachine@ yahoogroups. com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
              >
              > The New York Times
              > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
              >
              > December 30, 2007
              > Bright Ideas
              > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
              > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
              >
              > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise increase,
              > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why? Because
              > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening along
              > with our experience.

              I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and have been wondering why most of the members, from their messages and pictures, have been reinventing the wheel so to speak.

              I have been a machinist/modelmake r/jigborer/ designer since 1960. I'm retired now but still enjoy creating stuff in my garage shop.

              A number of years ago, I subscribed to a machinist magazine. It was mostly geared towards beginners, but some of the projects were interesting. I even threatened to build a dividing head, but later found one on EBAY at a price where it just didn't make sense to get involved in the intensive labor involved in fabricating one. There was one article that I thought was a little on the ridiculous side. The guy actually went to a junkyard, picked around, and bought some pieces of boilerplate, went home and machined thread cutting taps from it. Hello,,, taps made from the finest high speed steel can be bought for a few bucks. Why expend the effort? I don't know.

              Okay, from the standpoint of building a Multimachine, just to say, " I started with junk and made a working machine," I think it's justified as a hobby. If you intend to later fabricate parts for profit with the machine, then the effort probably is not justified. A decent milling machine can be picked up for under two grand!

              I hear what you are saying about thinking out of the box. I also know that lay people conceive most of the worlds inventions. By the same token, making something that can be bought is not always cost effective. In my trade, we always said, "if it can be bought, don't make it." "Make things that can't be bought!"

              Bob

            • Charles Mitchard
              Maybe a little clarification is in order here. I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members where they believe things should change
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 8, 2008
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                Maybe a little clarification is in order here.
                I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members where
                they believe things should change towards another direction.
                There is nothing wrong with this but it should be seen in the context of
                the original philosophy of the group.
                The multimachine group was started to work out improvements to the
                machine as lets be honest "invented" by Pat.
                The underlying philosophy being that the machine be able to be built
                with an absolute minimum of tools by semi-skilled labour
                from, in most instances, "junk" so that a "poor" community (or
                individual) could with some work produce a machine capable of reasonably
                accurate work for the production and/or repair of various implements in
                use in that community such as water pumps, trailers etc without having
                to spend the small (so called) sum for a new Chinese lathe.
                When you have kids wiping your sandels in the hope of a couple of pesos
                you soon realise what poor really means.
                It is this philosophy of as near to zero cost as possible that pushes
                the "re-inventing" the wheel because in general those old outdated
                methods worked so well and there was no other way. As the years have
                progressed newer methods have overtaken the old ways which have in most
                instances been forgotten.
                This is a real pity as most advances have been for mass producing of
                goods easier and faster that for the types of communities the
                multimachine is being geared to. A few dollars cost to one is a huge
                fortune to another.
                However, some of the newer methods can be reverse engineered in the
                light of the old methods and made to work for if possible zero cost. So
                we get the best of both worlds advancing the concept of a reasonably
                accurate machine tool suitable for a huge range of tasks for virtually
                no monetary cost that can then build parts to improve its own accuracy.
                That is the underlying philosophy of this group as I see it.
                The modern western method of "throwing dollars" at the problem wont
                work in the kinds of communities that the multimachine
                is really geared for.
                Mass production of goods for profit will come later once the community
                has hoisted itself upwards and can head in this direction.
                A worthy goal? I think so. Realistic? Who knows till you try.
                Just my 0.5c worth.
                Regards
                Charles



                GARY COLDIRON wrote:
                > I have lurked here for along time looking for some thing to comment
                > on.All I can say about Bob's comments are here,here,I agree 100%,Gary
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > *From:* Bob L <mailto:nffs3@...>
                > *To:* multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:39 AM
                > *Subject:* [multimachine] Re: aybe I need to think about this
                >
                >
                > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com>, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > The New York Times
                > > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
                > >
                > > December 30, 2007
                > > Bright Ideas
                > > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
                > > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
                > >
                > > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise increase,
                > > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
                > Because
                > > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
                > along
                > > with our experience.
                >
                > *I have been a member of this group for only a short time, and
                > have been wondering why most of the members, from their messages
                > and pictures, have been reinventing the wheel so to speak.*
                >
                > *I have been a machinist/modelmaker/jigborer/designer since 1960.
                > I'm retired now but still enjoy creating stuff in my garage shop.*
                >
                > *A number of years ago, I subscribed to a machinist magazine. It
                > was mostly geared towards beginners, but some of the projects were
                > interesting. I even threatened to build a dividing head, but later
                > found one on EBAY at a price where it just didn't make sense to
                > get involved in the intensive labor involved in fabricating one.
                > There was one article that I thought was a little on the
                > ridiculous side. The guy actually went to a junkyard, picked
                > around, and bought some pieces of boilerplate, went home and
                > machined thread cutting taps from it. Hello,,, taps made from the
                > finest high speed steel can be bought for a few bucks. Why expend
                > the effort? I don't know.*
                >
                > *Okay, from the standpoint of building a Multimachine, just to
                > say, " I started with junk and made a working machine," I think
                > it's justified as a hobby. If you intend to later fabricate parts
                > for profit with the machine, then the effort probably is not
                > justified. A decent milling machine can be picked up for under two
                > grand! *
                >
                > *I hear what you are saying about thinking out of the box. I also
                > know that lay people conceive most of the worlds inventions. By
                > the same token, making something that can be bought is not always
                > cost effective. In my trade, we always said, "if it can be bought,
                > don't make it." "Make things that can't be bought!"*
                >
                > *Bob*
                >
                > **
                >
                >

                --
                www.members.iinet.net.au/~charlesmitchard/index.html
              • Jerry Scovel
                KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor countries. It appears that the multimachine follows that principle to the letter. Like the savonius
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 8, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor countries. It
                  appears that the multimachine follows that principle to the letter. Like
                  the savonius windmill or the undershot water wheel it is not appreciated
                  because it is simple. I love it the way it is, I plan to build a dozen or so
                  of them.

                  Jerry.

                  on 1/8/08 10:31 PM, Charles Mitchard at charlesmitchard@... wrote:

                  Maybe a little clarification is in order here.
                  I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members where
                  they believe things should change towards another direction.
                  There is nothing wrong with this but it should be seen in the context of
                  the original philosophy of the group.
                  The multimachine group was started to work out improvements to the
                  machine as lets be honest "invented" by Pat.
                  The underlying philosophy being that the machine be able to be built
                  with an absolute minimum of tools by semi-skilled labour
                  from, in most instances, "junk" so that a "poor" community (or
                  individual) could with some work produce a machine capable of reasonably
                  accurate work for the production and/or repair of various implements in
                  use in that community such as water pumps, trailers etc without having
                  to spend the small (so called) sum for a new Chinese lathe.
                  When you have kids wiping your sandels in the hope of a couple of pesos
                  you soon realise what poor really means.
                  It is this philosophy of as near to zero cost as possible that pushes
                  the "re-inventing" the wheel because in general those old outdated
                  methods worked so well and there was no other way. As the years have
                  progressed newer methods have overtaken the old ways which have in most
                  instances been forgotten.
                  This is a real pity as most advances have been for mass producing of
                  goods easier and faster that for the types of communities the
                  multimachine is being geared to. A few dollars cost to one is a huge
                  fortune to another.
                  However, some of the newer methods can be reverse engineered in the
                  light of the old methods and made to work for if possible zero cost. So
                  we get the best of both worlds advancing the concept of a reasonably
                  accurate machine tool suitable for a huge range of tasks for virtually
                  no monetary cost that can then build parts to improve its own accuracy.
                  That is the underlying philosophy of this group as I see it.
                  The modern western method of "throwing dollars" at the problem wont
                  work in the kinds of communities that the multimachine
                  is really geared for.
                  Mass production of goods for profit will come later once the community
                  has hoisted itself upwards and can head in this direction.
                  A worthy goal? I think so. Realistic? Who knows till you try.
                  Just my 0.5c worth.
                  Regards
                  Charles
                • Bob L
                  ... Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this My comments are interspersed in bold text. KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 9, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@...> wrote:

                    Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this

                     

                    My comments are interspersed in bold text.

                     

                    KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor countries. It
                    appears that the multimachine follows that principle to the letter. Like
                    the savonius windmill or the undershot water wheel it is not appreciated
                    because it is simple. I love it the way it is, I plan to build a dozen or so
                    of them.

                    Jerry.

                    on 1/8/08 10:31 PM, Charles Mitchard at charlesmitchard@... wrote:

                    Maybe a little clarification is in order here.
                    I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members where
                    they believe things should change towards another direction.
                    There is nothing wrong with this but it should be seen in the context of
                    the original philosophy of the group.
                    The multimachine group was started to work out improvements to the
                    machine as lets be honest "invented" by Pat.
                    The underlying philosophy being that the machine be able to be built
                    with an absolute minimum of tools by semi-skilled labour
                    from, in most instances, "junk" so that a "poor" community (or
                    individual) could with some work produce a machine capable of reasonably
                    accurate work for the production and/or repair of various implements in
                    use in that community such as water pumps, trailers etc without having
                    to spend the small (so called) sum for a new Chinese lathe.

                    Looking at some of the pictures on the Multimachine site, I noticed several items that simply cannot be found just lying around for free! An X-Y Table, Electric motors, Pulleys, Shafts, Bearings, Lathe Chuck, Cylinder boring to fit bearings, Welding and of course labor. Presumably someone other than an unskilled 3rd world person will be doing the labor. For free?


                    When you have kids wiping your sandels in the hope of a couple of pesos
                    you soon realise what poor really means.
                    It is this philosophy of as near to zero cost as possible that pushes
                    the "re-inventing" the wheel because in general those old outdated
                    methods worked so well and there was no other way. As the years have
                    progressed newer methods have overtaken the old ways which have in most
                    instances been forgotten.
                    This is a real pity as most advances have been for mass producing of
                    goods easier and faster that for the types of communities the
                    multimachine is being geared to.

                    I had my eyes opened to the world of machining many years ago, back when things were for the most part simple. From my first baby steps in learning how to machine a part to blueprint dimensions to owning my own business and later as a Design Engineer for IBM's research facility, I'm still in awe at the incredible rate that machining technology is advancing. Methods used in the 60's 70's and 80's are now so obsolete they make your head spin. We now have CNC Lathes, CNC Millers, Edm, Wire Edm, Waterjet, Laser, and Plasma Cutting etc.

                     

                    It is true that all the above advances in relatively recent years ( late 50's to the present ) have been made to increase production, but in the early days advances were primarily made to allow machines to hold closer tolerances. All the early advances in machine tool building, from the 1800's to the 1950's have been neglected or forgotten by the group who seem willingly to go back to square 1.

                     

                    Once time is eliminated from the equation, just about anything can be accomplished with basic manual machines. I have operated CNC machines in my working days, but don't believe they are necessary as long as making money is not the primary goal. But still in order to create decent parts in my garage shop, I want the best machine tools I can find at the least cost. I picked up a Moore Jigborer last year for $1,000. Now there is a machine that provided it weren't obsolete in today's fast paced machining market would probably cost $100,000. The Lathe was picked up for a song as well.

                    Some pics of my shop and a few pics of one of my other hobbies, restoring furniture.

                     

                    http://www.nffs3.com/moore/  Copy & Paste if the link won't open.

                     

                    Nobody can even begin to know it all, but the basic machining skills are still the FOUNDATION of any good mechanic, skills that some of the newcomers to the trade are sadly lacking. Skills that are still valid whether operating a CNC machine or a Multimachine. Things like how to sharpen tool bits, knowing the difference between conventional and climb cutting when using an end mill. How to hold close tolerances when parts made in different locations of the world or made up the street on another Multimachine must fit together. Eventually some basic drawing skills might be necessary whether on a drawing board or computer aided design (CAD.) Some Trigonometry skills would help if one doesn't choose to learn CAD.

                     

                    At age 77, I've reached the point in life where there is nothing left to prove except a desire to pass on some of the machining knowledge that was learned the hard way.

                     

                    Someone once said, "If you understand, no explanation is necessary" "If you don't understand, no explanation is possible." It's possible we all need some understanding, myself included! 


                    However, some of the newer methods can be reverse engineered in the
                    light of the old methods and made to work for if possible zero cost. So
                    we get the best of both worlds advancing the concept of a reasonably
                    accurate machine tool suitable for a huge range of tasks for virtually
                    no monetary cost that can then build parts to improve its own accuracy.
                    That is the underlying philosophy of this group as I see it.
                    The modern western method of "throwing dollars" at the problem wont
                    work in the kinds of communities that the multimachine
                    is really geared for.
                    Mass production of goods for profit will come later once the community
                    has hoisted itself upwards and can head in this direction.
                    A worthy goal? I think so. Realistic? Who knows till you try.
                    Just my 0.5c worth.

                    I really wasn't advocating the so-called western approach of throwing money at a problem. Maybe throwing 100 years of hard learned knowledge would have been a more appropriate statement.

                    Bob


                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                  • Jerry Scovel
                    What you say is true but you must realize that they will not be building Saturn V rockets. As an exmachinist I have over the years made machine parts by hand
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 9, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this
                      What you say is true but you must realize that they will not be building Saturn V rockets. As an exmachinist I have over the years made 'machine' parts by hand in my garage without machine tools. As a machinist you might wish to post machining hints that will help 3rd world machinists make better parts on inferior machines.

                      on 1/9/08 3:02 PM, Bob L at nffs3@... wrote:


                      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@...> wrote:

                      Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this



                      My comments are interspersed in bold text.



                      KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor countries. It
                      appears that the multimachine follows that principle to the letter. Like
                      the savonius windmill or the undershot water wheel it is not appreciated
                      because it is simple. I love it the way it is, I plan to build a dozen or so
                      of them.

                      Jerry.

                      on 1/8/08 10:31 PM, Charles Mitchard at charlesmitchard@... wrote:

                      Maybe a little clarification is in order here.
                      I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members where
                      they believe things should change towards another direction.
                      There is nothing wrong with this but it should be seen in the context of
                      the original philosophy of the group.
                      The multimachine group was started to work out improvements to the
                      machine as lets be honest "invented" by Pat.
                      The underlying philosophy being that the machine be able to be built
                      with an absolute minimum of tools by semi-skilled labour
                      from, in most instances, "junk" so that a "poor" community (or
                      individual) could with some work produce a machine capable of reasonably
                      accurate work for the production and/or repair of various implements in
                      use in that community such as water pumps, trailers etc without having
                      to spend the small (so called) sum for a new Chinese lathe.

                      Looking at some of the pictures on the Multimachine site, I noticed several items that simply cannot be found just lying around for free! An X-Y Table, Electric motors, Pulleys, Shafts, Bearings, Lathe Chuck, Cylinder boring to fit bearings, Welding and of course labor. Presumably someone other than an unskilled 3rd world person will be doing the labor. For free?


                      When you have kids wiping your sandels in the hope of a couple of pesos
                      you soon realise what poor really means.
                      It is this philosophy of as near to zero cost as possible that pushes
                      the "re-inventing" the wheel because in general those old outdated
                      methods worked so well and there was no other way. As the years have
                      progressed newer methods have overtaken the old ways which have in most
                      instances been forgotten.
                      This is a real pity as most advances have been for mass producing of
                      goods easier and faster that for the types of communities the
                      multimachine is being geared to.

                      I had my eyes opened to the world of machining many years ago, back when things were for the most part simple. From my first baby steps in learning how to machine a part to blueprint dimensions to owning my own business and later as a Design Engineer for IBM's research facility, I'm still in awe at the incredible rate that machining technology is advancing. Methods used in the 60's 70's and 80's are now so obsolete they make your head spin. We now have CNC Lathes, CNC Millers, Edm, Wire Edm, Waterjet, Laser, and Plasma Cutting etc.



                      It is true that all the above advances in relatively recent years ( late 50's to the present ) have been made to increase production, but in the early days advances were primarily made to allow machines to hold closer tolerances. All the early advances in machine tool building, from the 1800's to the 1950's have been neglected or forgotten by the group who seem willingly to go back to square 1.



                      Once time is eliminated from the equation, just about anything can be accomplished with basic manual machines. I have operated CNC machines in my working days, but don't believe they are necessary as long as making money is not the primary goal. But still in order to create decent parts in my garage shop, I want the best machine tools I can find at the least cost. I picked up a Moore Jigborer last year for $1,000. Now there is a machine that provided it weren't obsolete in today's fast paced machining market would probably cost $100,000. The Lathe was picked up for a song as well.

                      Some pics of my shop and a few pics of one of my other hobbies, restoring furniture.



                      http://www.nffs3.com/moore/  Copy & Paste if the link won't open.



                      Nobody can even begin to know it all, but the basic machining skills are still the FOUNDATION of any good mechanic, skills that some of the newcomers to the trade are sadly lacking. Skills that are still valid whether operating a CNC machine or a Multimachine. Things like how to sharpen tool bits, knowing the difference between conventional and climb cutting when using an end mill. How to hold close tolerances when parts made in different locations of the world or made up the street on another Multimachine must fit together. Eventually some basic drawing skills might be necessary whether on a drawing board or computer aided design (CAD.) Some Trigonometry skills would help if one doesn't choose to learn CAD.



                      At age 77, I've reached the point in life where there is nothing left to prove except a desire to pass on some of the machining knowledge that was learned the hard way.



                      Someone once said, "If you understand, no explanation is necessary" "If you don't understand, no explanation is possible." It's possible we all need some understanding, myself included!


                      However, some of the newer methods can be reverse engineered in the
                      light of the old methods and made to work for if possible zero cost. So
                      we get the best of both worlds advancing the concept of a reasonably
                      accurate machine tool suitable for a huge range of tasks for virtually
                      no monetary cost that can then build parts to improve its own accuracy.
                      That is the underlying philosophy of this group as I see it.
                      The modern western method of "throwing dollars" at the problem wont
                      work in the kinds of communities that the multimachine
                      is really geared for.
                      Mass production of goods for profit will come later once the community
                      has hoisted itself upwards and can head in this direction.
                      A worthy goal? I think so. Realistic? Who knows till you try.
                      Just my 0.5c worth.


                      I really wasn't advocating the so-called western approach of throwing money at a problem. Maybe throwing 100 years of hard learned knowledge would have been a more appropriate statement.

                      Bob
                    • drpshops
                      ... building ... made machine ... you might ... make better ... I used some of Pat ideas to make me a machine. It has a wooden base,a 2in pipe and flange
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 10, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > What you say is true but you must realize that they will not be
                        building
                        > Saturn V rockets. As an exmachinist I have over the years
                        made 'machine'
                        > parts by hand in my garage without machine tools. As a machinist
                        you might
                        > wish to post machining hints that will help 3rd world machinists
                        make better
                        > parts on inferior machines.
                        >
                        > on 1/9/08 3:02 PM, Bob L at nffs3@... wrote:
                        >Hello
                        I used some of Pat' ideas to make me a machine.
                        It has a wooden base,a 2in pipe and flange with a plate to mount
                        the chuck on.Pillow blocks for bearings,I tried to keep the moveing
                        parts to a minimum.The ways are a mill/drill table.
                        It has is limits, but it gives me a machine to make metal parts on.
                        It will not make parts for NASA but it is useable to make some
                        parts for me.
                        Yes I have been trained as a machinist/machine asssembler,and worked
                        at it since the late 60's.
                        Some time it not the machine,but the man who is working the machine.
                        Keith
                        >
                        > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@> wrote:
                        >
                        > Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > My comments are interspersed in bold text.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > KISS, keep it simple stupid is an unwritten law in poor countries.
                        It
                        > appears that the multimachine follows that principle to the letter.
                        Like
                        > the savonius windmill or the undershot water wheel it is not
                        appreciated
                        > because it is simple. I love it the way it is, I plan to build a
                        dozen or so
                        > of them.
                        >
                        > Jerry.
                        >
                        > on 1/8/08 10:31 PM, Charles Mitchard at charlesmitchard@ wrote:
                        >
                        > Maybe a little clarification is in order here.
                        > I see this happening on a lot of forums with a few newish members
                        where
                        > they believe things should change towards another direction.
                        > There is nothing wrong with this but it should be seen in the
                        context of
                        > the original philosophy of the group.
                        > The multimachine group was started to work out improvements to the
                        > machine as lets be honest "invented" by Pat.
                        > The underlying philosophy being that the machine be able to be built
                        > with an absolute minimum of tools by semi-skilled labour
                        > from, in most instances, "junk" so that a "poor" community (or
                        > individual) could with some work produce a machine capable of
                        reasonably
                        > accurate work for the production and/or repair of various
                        implements in
                        > use in that community such as water pumps, trailers etc without
                        having
                        > to spend the small (so called) sum for a new Chinese lathe.
                        >
                        > Looking at some of the pictures on the Multimachine site, I noticed
                        several
                        > items that simply cannot be found just lying around for free! An X-
                        Y Table,
                        > Electric motors, Pulleys, Shafts, Bearings, Lathe Chuck, Cylinder
                        boring to
                        > fit bearings, Welding and of course labor. Presumably someone other
                        than an
                        > unskilled 3rd world person will be doing the labor. For free?
                        >
                        >
                        > When you have kids wiping your sandels in the hope of a couple of
                        pesos
                        > you soon realise what poor really means.
                        > It is this philosophy of as near to zero cost as possible that
                        pushes
                        > the "re-inventing" the wheel because in general those old outdated
                        > methods worked so well and there was no other way. As the years have
                        > progressed newer methods have overtaken the old ways which have in
                        most
                        > instances been forgotten.
                        > This is a real pity as most advances have been for mass producing of
                        > goods easier and faster that for the types of communities the
                        > multimachine is being geared to.
                        >
                        > I had my eyes opened to the world of machining many years ago, back
                        when
                        > things were for the most part simple. From my first baby steps in
                        learning
                        > how to machine a part to blueprint dimensions to owning my own
                        business and
                        > later as a Design Engineer for IBM's research facility, I'm still
                        in awe at
                        > the incredible rate that machining technology is advancing. Methods
                        used in
                        > the 60's 70's and 80's are now so obsolete they make your head
                        spin. We now
                        > have CNC Lathes, CNC Millers, Edm, Wire Edm, Waterjet, Laser, and
                        Plasma
                        > Cutting etc.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It is true that all the above advances in relatively recent years (
                        late
                        > 50's to the present ) have been made to increase production, but in
                        the
                        > early days advances were primarily made to allow machines to hold
                        closer
                        > tolerances. All the early advances in machine tool building, from
                        the 1800's
                        > to the 1950's have been neglected or forgotten by the group who seem
                        > willingly to go back to square 1.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Once time is eliminated from the equation, just about anything can
                        be
                        > accomplished with basic manual machines. I have operated CNC
                        machines in my
                        > working days, but don't believe they are necessary as long as
                        making money
                        > is not the primary goal. But still in order to create decent parts
                        in my
                        > garage shop, I want the best machine tools I can find at the least
                        cost. I
                        > picked up a Moore Jigborer last year for $1,000. Now there is a
                        machine that
                        > provided it weren't obsolete in today's fast paced machining market
                        would
                        > probably cost $100,000. The Lathe was picked up for a song as well.
                        >
                        > Some pics of my shop and a few pics of one of my other hobbies,
                        restoring
                        > furniture.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > http://www.nffs3.com/moore/ Copy & Paste if the link won't open.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Nobody can even begin to know it all, but the basic machining
                        skills are
                        > still the FOUNDATION of any good mechanic, skills that some of the
                        newcomers
                        > to the trade are sadly lacking. Skills that are still valid whether
                        > operating a CNC machine or a Multimachine. Things like how to
                        sharpen tool
                        > bits, knowing the difference between conventional and climb cutting
                        when
                        > using an end mill. How to hold close tolerances when parts made in
                        different
                        > locations of the world or made up the street on another
                        Multimachine must
                        > fit together. Eventually some basic drawing skills might be
                        necessary
                        > whether on a drawing board or computer aided design (CAD.) Some
                        Trigonometry
                        > skills would help if one doesn't choose to learn CAD.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > At age 77, I've reached the point in life where there is nothing
                        left to
                        > prove except a desire to pass on some of the machining knowledge
                        that was
                        > learned the hard way.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Someone once said, "If you understand, no explanation is
                        necessary" "If you
                        > don't understand, no explanation is possible." It's possible we all
                        need
                        > some understanding, myself included!
                        >
                        >
                        > However, some of the newer methods can be reverse engineered in the
                        > light of the old methods and made to work for if possible zero
                        cost. So
                        > we get the best of both worlds advancing the concept of a reasonably
                        > accurate machine tool suitable for a huge range of tasks for
                        virtually
                        > no monetary cost that can then build parts to improve its own
                        accuracy.
                        > That is the underlying philosophy of this group as I see it.
                        > The modern western method of "throwing dollars" at the problem wont
                        > work in the kinds of communities that the multimachine
                        > is really geared for.
                        > Mass production of goods for profit will come later once the
                        community
                        > has hoisted itself upwards and can head in this direction.
                        > A worthy goal? I think so. Realistic? Who knows till you try.
                        > Just my 0.5c worth.
                        >
                        > I really wasn't advocating the so-called western approach of
                        throwing money
                        > at a problem. Maybe throwing 100 years of hard learned knowledge
                        would have
                        > been a more appropriate statement.
                        >
                        > Bob
                        >
                      • drpshops
                        ... Because ... along ... he ... something ... becomes ... what ... with ... new ... way ... the ... curse ... a ... in ... to ... how ... in ... ultimately
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The New York Times
                          > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
                          >
                          > December 30, 2007
                          > Bright Ideas
                          > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
                          > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
                          >
                          > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise increase,
                          > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
                          Because
                          > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
                          along
                          > with our experience.
                          >
                          > Andrew S. Grove, the co-founder of Intel, put it well in 2005 when
                          he
                          > told an interviewer from Fortune, "When everybody knows that
                          something
                          > is so, it means that nobody knows nothin'." In other words, it
                          becomes
                          > nearly impossible to look beyond what you know and think outside the
                          > box you've built around yourself.
                          >
                          > This so-called curse of knowledge, a phrase used in a 1989 paper in
                          > The Journal of Political Economy, means that once you've become an
                          > expert in a particular subject, it's hard to imagine not knowing
                          what
                          > you do. Your conversations with others in the field are peppered
                          with
                          > catch phrases and jargon that are foreign to the uninitiated. When
                          > it's time to accomplish a task — open a store, build a house, buy
                          new
                          > cash registers, sell insurance — those in the know get it done the
                          way
                          > it has always been done, stifling innovation as they barrel along
                          the
                          > well-worn path.
                          >
                          > Elizabeth Newton, a psychologist, conducted an experiment on the
                          curse
                          > of knowledge while working on her doctorate at Stanford in 1990. She
                          > gave one set of people, called "tappers," a list of commonly known
                          > songs from which to choose. Their task was to rap their knuckles on
                          a
                          > tabletop to the rhythm of the chosen tune as they thought about it
                          in
                          > their heads. A second set of people, called "listeners," were asked
                          to
                          > name the songs.
                          >
                          > Before the experiment began, the tappers were asked how often they
                          > believed that the listeners would name the songs correctly. On
                          > average, tappers expected listeners to get it right about half the
                          > time. In the end, however, listeners guessed only 3 of 120 songs
                          > tapped out, or 2.5 percent.
                          >
                          > The tappers were astounded. The song was so clear in their minds;
                          how
                          > could the listeners not "hear" it in their taps?
                          >
                          > That's a common reaction when experts set out to share their ideas
                          in
                          > the business world, too, says Chip Heath, who with his brother, Dan,
                          > was a co-author of the 2007 book "Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas
                          > Survive and Others Die." It's why engineers design products
                          ultimately
                          > useful only to other engineers. It's why managers have trouble
                          > convincing the rank and file to adopt new processes. And it's why
                          the
                          > advertising world struggles to convey commercial messages to
                          consumers.
                          >
                          > "I HAVE a DVD remote control with 52 buttons on it, and every one of
                          > them is there because some engineer along the line knew how to use
                          > that button and believed I would want to use it, too," Mr. Heath
                          says.
                          > "People who design products are experts cursed by their knowledge,
                          and
                          > they can't imagine what it's like to be as ignorant as the rest of
                          us."
                          >
                          > But there are proven ways to exorcise the curse.
                          >
                          > In their book, the Heath brothers outline six "hooks" that they say
                          > are guaranteed to communicate a new idea clearly by transforming it
                          > into what they call a Simple Unexpected Concrete Credentialed
                          > Emotional Story. Each of the letters in the resulting acronym,
                          Succes,
                          > refers to a different hook. ("S," for example, suggests simplifying
                          > the message.) Although the hooks of "Made to Stick" focus on the art
                          > of communication, there are ways to fashion them around fostering
                          > innovation.
                          >
                          > To innovate, Mr. Heath says, you have to bring together people with
                          a
                          > variety of skills. If those people can't communicate clearly with
                          one
                          > another, innovation gets bogged down in the abstract language of
                          > specialization and expertise. "It's kind of like the ugly American
                          > tourist trying to get across an idea in another country by speaking
                          > English slowly and more loudly," he says. "You've got to find the
                          > common connections."
                          >
                          > In her 2006 book, "Innovation Killer: How What We Know Limits What
                          We
                          > Can Imagine — and What Smart Companies Are Doing About It," Cynthia
                          > Barton Rabe proposes bringing in outsiders whom she calls zero-
                          gravity
                          > thinkers to keep creativity and innovation on track.
                          >
                          > When experts have to slow down and go back to basics to bring an
                          > outsider up to speed, she says, "it forces them to look at their
                          world
                          > differently and, as a result, they come up with new solutions to old
                          > problems."
                          >
                          > She cites as an example the work of a colleague at Ralston Purina
                          who
                          > moved to Eveready in the mid-1980s when Ralston bought that company.
                          > At the time, Eveready had become a household name because of its
                          sales
                          > since the 1950s of inexpensive red plastic and metal flashlights.
                          But
                          > by the mid-1980s, the flashlight business, which had been aimed
                          solely
                          > at men shopping at hardware stores, was foundering.
                          >
                          > While Ms. Rabe's colleague had no experience with flashlights, she
                          did
                          > have plenty of experience in consumer packaging and marketing from
                          her
                          > years at Ralston Purina. She proceeded to revamp the flashlight
                          > product line to include colors like pink, baby blue and light
                          green —
                          > colors that would appeal to women — and began distributing them
                          > through grocery store chains.
                          >
                          > "It was not incredibly popular as a decision amongst the old guard
                          at
                          > Eveready," Ms. Rabe says. But after the changes, she says, "the
                          > flashlight business took off and was wildly successful for many
                          years
                          > after that."
                          >
                          > MS. RABE herself experienced similar problems while working as a
                          > transient "zero-gravity thinker" at Intel.
                          >
                          > "I would ask my very, very basic questions," she said, noting that
                          it
                          > frustrated some of the people who didn't know her. Once they got
                          past
                          > that point, however, "it always turned out that we could come up
                          with
                          > some terrific ideas," she said.
                          >
                          > While Ms. Rabe usually worked inside the companies she discussed in
                          > her book, she said outside consultants could also serve the
                          > zero-gravity role, but only if their expertise was not identical to
                          > that of the group already working on the project.
                          >
                          > "Look for people with renaissance-thinker tendencies, who've done
                          work
                          > in a related area but not in your specific field," she says. "Make
                          it
                          > possible for someone who doesn't report directly to that area to
                          come
                          > in and say the emperor has no clothes."
                          >
                          > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                          > Silicon Valley.
                          > Hello Pat
                          The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is design and
                          construction.
                          Most people do not have a clue of what it can do,or is capable of
                          doing. They just do not understand the machine,and how it could be
                          used in a 3rd world country.
                          Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build or repair stuff to
                          help a small rural area to make things better.
                          The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to do many machineing
                          task,that what make it so useful.
                          If a person has a way to machine metal, there is no limit to what you
                          can make.
                          What can you make if you can machine metal,you answer that question?

                          The massage about the buttons and bright colors,that might work ,too.

                          Keith
                        • Murat Santer
                          Hi, Read the following well and i have to say that i am not agree with that totally. ... to ... machineing ... you ... question? ... work ,too. ... ANSWER FOR
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi,

                            Read the following well and i have to say that i am not agree with
                            that totally.

                            > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                            > > Silicon Valley.
                            > > Hello Pat
                            > The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is design and
                            > construction.
                            > Most people do not have a clue of what it can do,or is capable of
                            > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and how it could be
                            > used in a 3rd world country.
                            > Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build or repair stuff
                            to
                            > help a small rural area to make things better.
                            > The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to do many
                            machineing
                            > task,that what make it so useful.
                            > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is no limit to what
                            you
                            > can make.
                            > What can you make if you can machine metal,you answer that
                            question?
                            >
                            > The massage about the buttons and bright colors,that might
                            work ,too.
                            >
                            > Keith
                            >
                            ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE


                            I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able to make
                            unbelievable things too.

                            For example : do u know which country makes the best flight
                            simulators for armies and for civil aviation?

                            Answer : Turkey :-)

                            and many other computer controlled machines and we make them here in
                            Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly from Europe but
                            now we make most of them ourself and thats why European economies
                            are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so much technology
                            from western countries anymore.

                            Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i meant
                            here well.

                            I have learned english in my mind never got a course...

                            Regards,
                            Murat Santer
                          • Scott Copeland
                            Murat, First, your English is very good. Especially for not having any classes. I really don t qualify Turkey as a 3rd world country. I ve seen the flight
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Murat,

                              First, your English is very good. Especially for not
                              having any classes.

                              I really don't qualify Turkey as a 3rd world country.
                              I've seen the flight simulators :-) and they are very
                              impressive. I've seen other military related products
                              and have been impressed with the quality.

                              To the point, the idea of MM is to get it the people
                              who are truely in the 3rd world. Those who can't
                              afford to buy a new tractor to farm their land and who
                              will liturally starve if they can't. More often than
                              not, these people don't have any formal education.
                              They have the skill and talent to assemble and repair
                              what they have, but don't have the time or energy to
                              develop something like this on their own. We're all
                              just trying to help.

                              I don't have a lot to offer here myself (at least not
                              yet), but I am facinated by the concepts and ideas.

                              It doesn't matter where the ideas come from as much as
                              the result which is to help those who need it.

                              Just my 2 cents. Scott

                              --- Murat Santer <santermurat@...> wrote:

                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > Read the following well and i have to say that i am
                              > not agree with
                              > that totally.
                              >
                              > > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and
                              > emerging technology in
                              > > > Silicon Valley.
                              > > > Hello Pat
                              > > The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is
                              > design and
                              > > construction.
                              > > Most people do not have a clue of what it can
                              > do,or is capable of
                              > > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and
                              > how it could be
                              > > used in a 3rd world country.
                              > > Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build
                              > or repair stuff
                              > to
                              > > help a small rural area to make things better.
                              > > The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to
                              > do many
                              > machineing
                              > > task,that what make it so useful.
                              > > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is
                              > no limit to what
                              > you
                              > > can make.
                              > > What can you make if you can machine metal,you
                              > answer that
                              > question?
                              > >
                              > > The massage about the buttons and bright
                              > colors,that might
                              > work ,too.
                              > >
                              > > Keith
                              > >
                              > ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE
                              >
                              >
                              > I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able
                              > to make
                              > unbelievable things too.
                              >
                              > For example : do u know which country makes the best
                              > flight
                              > simulators for armies and for civil aviation?
                              >
                              > Answer : Turkey :-)
                              >
                              > and many other computer controlled machines and we
                              > make them here in
                              > Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly
                              > from Europe but
                              > now we make most of them ourself and thats why
                              > European economies
                              > are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so
                              > much technology
                              > from western countries anymore.
                              >
                              > Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you
                              > understand what i meant
                              > here well.
                              >
                              > I have learned english in my mind never got a
                              > course...
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Murat Santer
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
                              Be a better friend, newshound, and
                              know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                            • Jerry Scovel
                              Murat, I have been to Turkey many times and it is hardly a third world country. As a sailor I have visited many third world countries and I know the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this Murat,

                                I have been to Turkey many times and it is hardly a third world country. As a sailor I have visited many third world countries and I know the difference. The multimachine will make a huge difference in countries where a machine shop consists of a kiln and an old man with a file and a hammer.

                                Jerry.


                                on 1/23/08 5:49 AM, Murat Santer at santermurat@... wrote:

                                Hi,

                                Read the following well and i have to say that i am not agree with
                                that totally.

                                > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                                > > Silicon Valley.
                                > > Hello Pat
                                >  The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is design and
                                > construction.
                                >  Most people do not have a clue of what it can do,or is capable of
                                > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and how it could be
                                > used in a 3rd world country.
                                >  Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build or repair stuff
                                to
                                > help a small rural area to make things better.
                                >  The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to do many
                                machineing
                                > task,that what make it so useful.
                                > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is no limit to what
                                you
                                > can make.
                                >  What can you make if you can machine metal,you answer that
                                question?
                                >
                                > The massage about the buttons and bright colors,that might
                                work ,too.
                                >  
                                >  Keith
                                >
                                ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE

                                I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able to make
                                unbelievable things too.

                                For example : do u know which country makes the best flight
                                simulators for armies and for civil aviation?

                                Answer : Turkey :-)

                                and many other computer controlled machines and we make them here in
                                Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly from Europe but
                                now we make most of them ourself and thats why European economies
                                are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so much technology
                                from western countries anymore.

                                Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i meant
                                here well.

                                I have learned english in my mind never got a course...

                                Regards,
                                Murat Santer

                              • keith gutshall
                                Hello Jerry The last statement you made might be the answer to the problem. Do they have the tools to disassemble a vehicle to get the needed parts from it? It
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Jerry
                                  The last statement you made might be the answer to the problem.
                                   Do they have the tools to disassemble a vehicle to get the needed parts from it?
                                   It is not like they can go to the local Sears and get the needed wrenches and stuff to use.
                                  have you ever tried to work on an auto without tools?
                                   Keith

                                  Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@...> wrote:
                                  Murat,

                                  I have been to Turkey many times and it is hardly a third world country. As a sailor I have visited many third world countries and I know the difference. The multimachine will make a huge difference in countries where a machine shop consists of a kiln and an old man with a file and a hammer.

                                  Jerry.


                                  on 1/23/08 5:49 AM, Murat Santer at santermurat@ yahoo.com wrote:

                                  Hi,

                                  Read the following well and i have to say that i am not agree with
                                  that totally.

                                  > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                                  > > Silicon Valley.
                                  > > Hello Pat
                                  >  The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is design and
                                  > construction.
                                  >  Most people do not have a clue of what it can do,or is capable of
                                  > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and how it could be
                                  > used in a 3rd world country.
                                  >  Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build or repair stuff
                                  to
                                  > help a small rural area to make things better.
                                  >  The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to do many
                                  machineing
                                  > task,that what make it so useful.
                                  > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is no limit to what
                                  you
                                  > can make.
                                  >  What can you make if you can machine metal,you answer that
                                  question?
                                  >
                                  > The massage about the buttons and bright colors,that might
                                  work ,too.
                                  >  
                                  >  Keith
                                  >
                                  ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE

                                  I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able to make
                                  unbelievable things too.

                                  For example : do u know which country makes the best flight
                                  simulators for armies and for civil aviation?

                                  Answer : Turkey :-)

                                  and many other computer controlled machines and we make them here in
                                  Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly from Europe but
                                  now we make most of them ourself and thats why European economies
                                  are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so much technology
                                  from western countries anymore.

                                  Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i meant
                                  here well.

                                  I have learned english in my mind never got a course...

                                  Regards,
                                  Murat Santer




                                  Deep Run Portage
                                  Back Shop
                                  " The Lizard Works"


                                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                • Jerry Scovel
                                  Keith, They do have simple tools and are quite adept at repairing engines. Hand tools are easily made by the old man with the kiln, they may not have all the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Re: [multimachine] Re: Maybe I need to think about this Keith,

                                    They do have simple tools and are quite adept at repairing engines. Hand tools are easily made by the old man with the kiln, they may not have all the sockets et cetera that are common to mechanics in the first world but they get the job done. I have no doubt that they can build the multimachine.

                                    Jerry.

                                    on 1/23/08 4:10 PM, keith gutshall at drpshops@... wrote:

                                    Hello Jerry
                                     
                                    The last statement you made might be the answer to the problem.
                                     
                                    Do they have the tools to disassemble a vehicle to get the needed parts from it?
                                     
                                    It is not like they can go to the local Sears and get the needed wrenches and stuff to use.
                                     
                                    have you ever tried to work on an auto without tools?
                                     
                                    Keith

                                  • William Dysinger
                                    ... Keith, If you have some scrap iron, a hammer, and a good hot fire, you would be surprised at the tools that can be made! _._,___ William, the tinkerrer
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 23, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 14:10 -0800, keith gutshall wrote:
                                      Hello Jerry
                                      The last statement you made might be the answer to the problem.
                                       Do they have the tools to disassemble a vehicle to get the needed parts from it?
                                       It is not like they can go to the local Sears and get the needed wrenches and stuff to use.
                                      have you ever tried to work on an auto without tools?
                                       Keith

                                      Jerry Scovel <stcfarms@...> wrote:
                                      Murat,

                                      I have been to Turkey many times and it is hardly a third world country. As a sailor I have visited many third world countries and I know the difference. The multimachine will make a huge difference in countries where a machine shop consists of a kiln and an old man with a file and a hammer.

                                      Jerry.


                                      on 1/23/08 5:49 AM, Murat Santer at santermurat@... wrote:

                                      Hi,

                                      Read the following well and i have to say that i am not agree with
                                      that totally.

                                      > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                                      > > Silicon Valley.
                                      > > Hello Pat
                                      >  The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is design and
                                      > construction.
                                      >  Most people do not have a clue of what it can do,or is capable of
                                      > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and how it could be
                                      > used in a 3rd world country.
                                      >  Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build or repair stuff
                                      to
                                      > help a small rural area to make things better.
                                      >  The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to do many
                                      machineing
                                      > task,that what make it so useful.
                                      > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is no limit to what
                                      you
                                      > can make.
                                      >  What can you make if you can machine metal,you answer that
                                      question?
                                      >
                                      > The massage about the buttons and bright colors,that might
                                      work ,too.
                                      >  
                                      >  Keith
                                      >
                                      ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE

                                      I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able to make
                                      unbelievable things too.

                                      For example : do u know which country makes the best flight
                                      simulators for armies and for civil aviation?

                                      Answer : Turkey :-)

                                      and many other computer controlled machines and we make them here in
                                      Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly from Europe but
                                      now we make most of them ourself and thats why European economies
                                      are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so much technology
                                      from western countries anymore.

                                      Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you understand what i meant
                                      here well.

                                      I have learned english in my mind never got a course...

                                      Regards,
                                      Murat Santer
                                      Keith,
                                          If you have some scrap iron, a hammer, and a good hot fire, you would be surprised at the tools that can be made! _._,___
                                      William, the tinkerrer
                                    • Murat Santer
                                      Hi, Would you please check out the back ground of JANET RAE-DUPREE well please. ... Where is she coming from? Regards, Murat Santer ... increase, ... Because
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jan 24, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi,

                                        Would you please check out the back ground of JANET RAE-DUPREE well
                                        please.

                                        :-)

                                        Where is she coming from?

                                        Regards,
                                        Murat Santer





                                        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The New York Times
                                        > Printer Friendly Format Sponsored By
                                        >
                                        > December 30, 2007
                                        > Bright Ideas
                                        > Innovative Minds Don't Think Alike
                                        > By JANET RAE-DUPREE
                                        >
                                        > IT'S a pickle of a paradox: As our knowledge and expertise
                                        increase,
                                        > our creativity and ability to innovate tend to taper off. Why?
                                        Because
                                        > the walls of the proverbial box in which we think are thickening
                                        along
                                        > with our experience.
                                        >
                                        > Andrew S. Grove, the co-founder of Intel, put it well in 2005 when
                                        he
                                        > told an interviewer from Fortune, "When everybody knows that
                                        something
                                        > is so, it means that nobody knows nothin'." In other words, it
                                        becomes
                                        > nearly impossible to look beyond what you know and think outside
                                        the
                                        > box you've built around yourself.
                                        >
                                        > This so-called curse of knowledge, a phrase used in a 1989 paper in
                                        > The Journal of Political Economy, means that once you've become an
                                        > expert in a particular subject, it's hard to imagine not knowing
                                        what
                                        > you do. Your conversations with others in the field are peppered
                                        with
                                        > catch phrases and jargon that are foreign to the uninitiated. When
                                        > it's time to accomplish a task — open a store, build a house, buy
                                        new
                                        > cash registers, sell insurance — those in the know get it done the
                                        way
                                        > it has always been done, stifling innovation as they barrel along
                                        the
                                        > well-worn path.
                                        >
                                        > Elizabeth Newton, a psychologist, conducted an experiment on the
                                        curse
                                        > of knowledge while working on her doctorate at Stanford in 1990.
                                        She
                                        > gave one set of people, called "tappers," a list of commonly known
                                        > songs from which to choose. Their task was to rap their knuckles
                                        on a
                                        > tabletop to the rhythm of the chosen tune as they thought about it
                                        in
                                        > their heads. A second set of people, called "listeners," were
                                        asked to
                                        > name the songs.
                                        >
                                        > Before the experiment began, the tappers were asked how often they
                                        > believed that the listeners would name the songs correctly. On
                                        > average, tappers expected listeners to get it right about half the
                                        > time. In the end, however, listeners guessed only 3 of 120 songs
                                        > tapped out, or 2.5 percent.
                                        >
                                        > The tappers were astounded. The song was so clear in their minds;
                                        how
                                        > could the listeners not "hear" it in their taps?
                                        >
                                        > That's a common reaction when experts set out to share their ideas
                                        in
                                        > the business world, too, says Chip Heath, who with his brother,
                                        Dan,
                                        > was a co-author of the 2007 book "Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas
                                        > Survive and Others Die." It's why engineers design products
                                        ultimately
                                        > useful only to other engineers. It's why managers have trouble
                                        > convincing the rank and file to adopt new processes. And it's why
                                        the
                                        > advertising world struggles to convey commercial messages to
                                        consumers.
                                        >
                                        > "I HAVE a DVD remote control with 52 buttons on it, and every one
                                        of
                                        > them is there because some engineer along the line knew how to use
                                        > that button and believed I would want to use it, too," Mr. Heath
                                        says.
                                        > "People who design products are experts cursed by their knowledge,
                                        and
                                        > they can't imagine what it's like to be as ignorant as the rest of
                                        us."
                                        >
                                        > But there are proven ways to exorcise the curse.
                                        >
                                        > In their book, the Heath brothers outline six "hooks" that they say
                                        > are guaranteed to communicate a new idea clearly by transforming it
                                        > into what they call a Simple Unexpected Concrete Credentialed
                                        > Emotional Story. Each of the letters in the resulting acronym,
                                        Succes,
                                        > refers to a different hook. ("S," for example, suggests simplifying
                                        > the message.) Although the hooks of "Made to Stick" focus on the
                                        art
                                        > of communication, there are ways to fashion them around fostering
                                        > innovation.
                                        >
                                        > To innovate, Mr. Heath says, you have to bring together people
                                        with a
                                        > variety of skills. If those people can't communicate clearly with
                                        one
                                        > another, innovation gets bogged down in the abstract language of
                                        > specialization and expertise. "It's kind of like the ugly American
                                        > tourist trying to get across an idea in another country by speaking
                                        > English slowly and more loudly," he says. "You've got to find the
                                        > common connections."
                                        >
                                        > In her 2006 book, "Innovation Killer: How What We Know Limits What
                                        We
                                        > Can Imagine — and What Smart Companies Are Doing About It," Cynthia
                                        > Barton Rabe proposes bringing in outsiders whom she calls zero-
                                        gravity
                                        > thinkers to keep creativity and innovation on track.
                                        >
                                        > When experts have to slow down and go back to basics to bring an
                                        > outsider up to speed, she says, "it forces them to look at their
                                        world
                                        > differently and, as a result, they come up with new solutions to
                                        old
                                        > problems."
                                        >
                                        > She cites as an example the work of a colleague at Ralston Purina
                                        who
                                        > moved to Eveready in the mid-1980s when Ralston bought that
                                        company.
                                        > At the time, Eveready had become a household name because of its
                                        sales
                                        > since the 1950s of inexpensive red plastic and metal flashlights.
                                        But
                                        > by the mid-1980s, the flashlight business, which had been aimed
                                        solely
                                        > at men shopping at hardware stores, was foundering.
                                        >
                                        > While Ms. Rabe's colleague had no experience with flashlights, she
                                        did
                                        > have plenty of experience in consumer packaging and marketing from
                                        her
                                        > years at Ralston Purina. She proceeded to revamp the flashlight
                                        > product line to include colors like pink, baby blue and light
                                        green —
                                        > colors that would appeal to women — and began distributing them
                                        > through grocery store chains.
                                        >
                                        > "It was not incredibly popular as a decision amongst the old guard
                                        at
                                        > Eveready," Ms. Rabe says. But after the changes, she says, "the
                                        > flashlight business took off and was wildly successful for many
                                        years
                                        > after that."
                                        >
                                        > MS. RABE herself experienced similar problems while working as a
                                        > transient "zero-gravity thinker" at Intel.
                                        >
                                        > "I would ask my very, very basic questions," she said, noting that
                                        it
                                        > frustrated some of the people who didn't know her. Once they got
                                        past
                                        > that point, however, "it always turned out that we could come up
                                        with
                                        > some terrific ideas," she said.
                                        >
                                        > While Ms. Rabe usually worked inside the companies she discussed in
                                        > her book, she said outside consultants could also serve the
                                        > zero-gravity role, but only if their expertise was not identical to
                                        > that of the group already working on the project.
                                        >
                                        > "Look for people with renaissance-thinker tendencies, who've done
                                        work
                                        > in a related area but not in your specific field," she says. "Make
                                        it
                                        > possible for someone who doesn't report directly to that area to
                                        come
                                        > in and say the emperor has no clothes."
                                        >
                                        > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and emerging technology in
                                        > Silicon Valley.
                                        >
                                      • Murat Santer
                                        Hi Scott, Thanks for your nice words about Turkey. I would like to be friend with you here in that MM group. Thanks again and i wish you a happiest,healty and
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jan 24, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Scott,

                                          Thanks for your nice words about Turkey.
                                          I would like to be friend with you here in that MM group.

                                          Thanks again and i wish you a happiest,healty and very lucky new
                                          year...

                                          Regards,
                                          Murat Santer



                                          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Scott Copeland <ceiboss@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Murat,
                                          >
                                          > First, your English is very good. Especially for not
                                          > having any classes.
                                          >
                                          > I really don't qualify Turkey as a 3rd world country.
                                          > I've seen the flight simulators :-) and they are very
                                          > impressive. I've seen other military related products
                                          > and have been impressed with the quality.
                                          >
                                          > To the point, the idea of MM is to get it the people
                                          > who are truely in the 3rd world. Those who can't
                                          > afford to buy a new tractor to farm their land and who
                                          > will liturally starve if they can't. More often than
                                          > not, these people don't have any formal education.
                                          > They have the skill and talent to assemble and repair
                                          > what they have, but don't have the time or energy to
                                          > develop something like this on their own. We're all
                                          > just trying to help.
                                          >
                                          > I don't have a lot to offer here myself (at least not
                                          > yet), but I am facinated by the concepts and ideas.
                                          >
                                          > It doesn't matter where the ideas come from as much as
                                          > the result which is to help those who need it.
                                          >
                                          > Just my 2 cents. Scott
                                          >
                                          > --- Murat Santer <santermurat@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Hi,
                                          > >
                                          > > Read the following well and i have to say that i am
                                          > > not agree with
                                          > > that totally.
                                          > >
                                          > > > > Janet Rae-Dupree writes about science and
                                          > > emerging technology in
                                          > > > > Silicon Valley.
                                          > > > > Hello Pat
                                          > > > The Multi-Machine Is outside of the box,in is
                                          > > design and
                                          > > > construction.
                                          > > > Most people do not have a clue of what it can
                                          > > do,or is capable of
                                          > > > doing. They just do not understand the machine,and
                                          > > how it could be
                                          > > > used in a 3rd world country.
                                          > > > Even a fairly simple machine can be used to build
                                          > > or repair stuff
                                          > > to
                                          > > > help a small rural area to make things better.
                                          > > > The Multi-Machine has ways to be recofigured to
                                          > > do many
                                          > > machineing
                                          > > > task,that what make it so useful.
                                          > > > If a person has a way to machine metal, there is
                                          > > no limit to what
                                          > > you
                                          > > > can make.
                                          > > > What can you make if you can machine metal,you
                                          > > answer that
                                          > > question?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The massage about the buttons and bright
                                          > > colors,that might
                                          > > work ,too.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Keith
                                          > > >
                                          > > ANSWER FOR THE ABOVE MESSAGE
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I am also coming from a 3rd country but we are able
                                          > > to make
                                          > > unbelievable things too.
                                          > >
                                          > > For example : do u know which country makes the best
                                          > > flight
                                          > > simulators for armies and for civil aviation?
                                          > >
                                          > > Answer : Turkey :-)
                                          > >
                                          > > and many other computer controlled machines and we
                                          > > make them here in
                                          > > Turkey. Years ago we were importing from USA, Mostly
                                          > > from Europe but
                                          > > now we make most of them ourself and thats why
                                          > > European economies
                                          > > are going down. Many Asian country is not buying so
                                          > > much technology
                                          > > from western countries anymore.
                                          > >
                                          > > Note : Sorry for my bad english i hope you
                                          > > understand what i meant
                                          > > here well.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have learned english in my mind never got a
                                          > > course...
                                          > >
                                          > > Regards,
                                          > > Murat Santer
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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