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Re: [multimachine] Re: another crazy idea

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  • keith gutshall
    Hello Pat The machine you made is a good machine. The machine I built is a good machine. The machines that home brewed and built by guys in there garage.
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 30, 2007
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      Hello Pat
      The machine you made is a good machine. The machine I built is a good machine.
      The machines that home brewed and built by guys in there garage.
       Getting the machines to work is good, seeing the people who built them are not engineers.
        There are a few tecnicial issue's the need to be worked on ,but all in due time.
       To get as far as you got ,Pat ,you did a excellent Job!
      Keith

      Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:
      Thanks Ian

      This is a very good point. The table is easily raised in .0001"
      increments by "tapping" and in .003" increments by using the jack, if
      the job was laid out so that cuts were only made as the table was
      raised, then it should work out ok. I think I ask too much sometimes.
      The MM is supposed to be made with "found" stuff by people with little
      or no money. I've used mine for years and in spite of my being old and
      sick most of the time, it really does every thing I claim it does. I
      should be satisfied!

      Pat

      --- In multimachine@ yahoogroups. com, Ian Newman <ian_new@... > wrote:
      >
      > Hi Pat,
      >
      > Isn't the vertical stickiness really the same issue as
      > backlash? It would seem a simple solution to move the
      > work away from the cutter, over-feed the down feed,
      > then raise the table to the correct level.
      >
      > With any lathe or mill you would never make a cut then
      > return to the start for another pass without first
      > bringing the tool away from the work.
      >
      > Ian.
      >
      >
      > --- Pat Delany <rigmatch@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > > It's no secret that I am obsessed about finding a
      > > way to smoothly
      > > lower the table in small increments. This is most
      > > important when you
      > > use the end mill function since when you use the end
      > > mill sideways the
      > > "sticky" axis is not the less demanding "z" axis
      > > but is instead the
      > > critical "x" or "y" axis. Since "tapping" on the
      > > vert. slide lets it
      > > be lowered in .001" increments, would a small(
      > > 1/8-1/4 hp) motor with
      > > an eccentric weight work in un-sticking the slide?
      > >
      > > Pat
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > Sent from Yahoo! - the World's favourite mail http://uk.mail. yahoo.com
      >




      Deep Run Portage
      Back Shop
      " The Lizard Works"


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    • Pat
      Both the MM and a Yeomans lathe use round ways with the ends embedded in concrete. The Yeomans patent shows some kind of bushings (probably bronze) to protect
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 13, 2010
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        Both the MM and a Yeomans lathe use round ways with the ends embedded in concrete. The Yeomans patent shows some kind of bushings (probably bronze) to protect the ways from concrete corrosion. 8 bushings and 4 pieces of bored pipe that are used as "cartridges" could be a big expense for a simple job.

        How about just using plastic from a milk jug or drink bottle, clamping it on the greased way ends with hose clamps and then grouting the ends into the oversize core holes. In this way, the ways could be firmly retained but could be rotated to correct for wear.

        Any error in way accuracy could be fixed by pulling the way out, turning the way end down and making an eccentric bushing that correct accuracy.

        Pat
      • Pat
        will somebody say something??????
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 14, 2010
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          will somebody say something??????


          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
          >
          > Both the MM and a Yeomans lathe use round ways with the ends embedded in concrete. The Yeomans patent shows some kind of bushings (probably bronze) to protect the ways from concrete corrosion. 8 bushings and 4 pieces of bored pipe that are used as "cartridges" could be a big expense for a simple job.
          >
          > How about just using plastic from a milk jug or drink bottle, clamping it on the greased way ends with hose clamps and then grouting the ends into the oversize core holes. In this way, the ways could be firmly retained but could be rotated to correct for wear.
          >
          > Any error in way accuracy could be fixed by pulling the way out, turning the way end down and making an eccentric bushing that correct accuracy.
          >
          > Pat
          >
        • Nick Andrews
          Sorry, been busy contemplating buying a Bridgeport mill or one of two Tree mills about 40 miles away... ... -- Nick A You know what I wish? I wish that all
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 14, 2010
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            Sorry, been busy contemplating buying a Bridgeport mill or one of two Tree mills about 40 miles away...

            On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Pat <rigmatch@...> wrote:
             

            will somebody say something??????

            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
            >
            > Both the MM and a Yeomans lathe use round ways with the ends embedded in concrete. The Yeomans patent shows some kind of bushings (probably bronze) to protect the ways from concrete corrosion. 8 bushings and 4 pieces of bored pipe that are used as "cartridges" could be a big expense for a simple job.
            >
            > How about just using plastic from a milk jug or drink bottle, clamping it on the greased way ends with hose clamps and then grouting the ends into the oversize core holes. In this way, the ways could be firmly retained but could be rotated to correct for wear.
            >
            > Any error in way accuracy could be fixed by pulling the way out, turning the way end down and making an eccentric bushing that correct accuracy.
            >
            > Pat
            >




            --
            Nick A

            "You know what I wish?  I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about it..."  Rorschach, 1975

            "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

            "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them." Bill Vaughan

            "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
          • keith gutshall
            Hello Pat  I am still studying the drawings and desciption from the files.    Keith Deep Run Portage Back Shop The Lizard Works ... From: Pat
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 14, 2010
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              Hello Pat
               I am still studying the drawings and desciption from the files.
               
               Keith

              Deep Run Portage
              Back Shop
              " The Lizard Works"

              --- On Tue, 12/14/10, Pat <rigmatch@...> wrote:

              From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
              Subject: [multimachine] Re: another crazy idea
              To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, December 14, 2010, 9:56 PM

               
              will somebody say something??????

              --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
              >
              > Both the MM and a Yeomans lathe use round ways with the ends embedded in concrete. The Yeomans patent shows some kind of bushings (probably bronze) to protect the ways from concrete corrosion. 8 bushings and 4 pieces of bored pipe that are used as "cartridges" could be a big expense for a simple job.
              >
              > How about just using plastic from a milk jug or drink bottle, clamping it on the greased way ends with hose clamps and then grouting the ends into the oversize core holes. In this way, the ways could be firmly retained but could be rotated to correct for wear.
              >
              > Any error in way accuracy could be fixed by pulling the way out, turning the way end down and making an eccentric bushing that correct accuracy.
              >
              > Pat
              >


            • Shannon DeWolfe
              Howdy Pat, Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got side-tracked doing other things... In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                Howdy Pat,

                Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got
                side-tracked doing other things...

                In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings you are talking about
                as item 36 in the patent drawings. According to his description at page
                2, line 37;

                "...The ends of these guide-rods are mounted in sleeves 36 which are
                mounted in supporting lugs 37 integral with the bed 10."

                Then at line 113 of the same page;

                "In constructing the machine the main castings are molded with enlarged
                openings or recesses therein at the points where working parts or
                bearings are to be positioned. Finished stock bushings of the proper
                size are then suitably supported in working position within said
                recesses in the castings, and the space surrounding each bushing within
                its recess is filled by pouring therein a suitable molten metal which
                has the characteristic of expanding in cooling. When this filling metal
                has cooled and set, the bushings will be accurately held in working
                position are ready to receive the spindles, guide-rods, and other parts
                of the machine."

                I'm sure you've read that many times by now.

                If I understand your idea, you want to replace the "finished stock
                bushings" with plastic salvaged from drink bottles? I am not sure that
                would work if applied as a replacement to the item 36. How are you going
                to accurately position the ways (guide-rods)? Plastic deforms and would
                offer very little resistance to forces acting upon it. I think that in
                short order the ways would be floating in the plastic bushings. If
                grouted or epoxied in place, renewing the plastic bushings would be
                difficult if not nearly impossible.

                What if, instead of building exactly to the patent description, the lugs
                cast into the main body form one-half of a clamp with a hardwood cap
                forming the other half? Embed nuts in the concrete half to receive the
                bolts that hold the cap. The plastic sleeve is slipped over the pipe way
                at each end. The plastic would take-up clearances. The hardwood cap is
                bolted to the concrete recess through slotted holes to provide
                adjust-ability. The pipe can now be adjusted by plastic shims and moving
                the cap as needed, within reason of course. The clamping action would
                securely hold the plastic sleeve, shims, and pipe. When the plastic gets
                damaged, rather than having to dig out grout or epoxy, simply remove the
                cap and replace the plastic.

                What say you?

                Regards,

                Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.


                On 12/14/2010 9:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                > will somebody say something??????
              • David G. LeVine
                ... Something?????? Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                  On 12/14/2010 10:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                  > will somebody say something??????

                  Something??????

                  Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way
                  will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                  settings at most and you can be parallel at only two settings at most.
                  This is exacerbated by the fact that the settings for parallel and
                  coplanar probably will be different.

                  If you get far enough out of alignment, it can be at one setting or at
                  no settings. Clearly this is not the best way to do things.

                  Dave 8{)
                • Pat
                  Thanks Dave I added the eccentric bushing thing as an after though because I saw it mentioned somewhere as a way to correct a misaligned round way. It is not
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                    Thanks Dave
                    I added the eccentric bushing thing as an after though because I saw it mentioned somewhere as a way to correct a misaligned round way. It is not meant to be rotated but just bored off center and inserted to correct the problem.

                    Pat


                    --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On 12/14/2010 10:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                    > > will somebody say something??????
                    >
                    > Something??????
                    >
                    > Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way
                    > will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                    > settings at most and you can be parallel at only two settings at most.
                    > This is exacerbated by the fact that the settings for parallel and
                    > coplanar probably will be different.
                    >
                    > If you get far enough out of alignment, it can be at one setting or at
                    > no settings. Clearly this is not the best way to do things.
                    >
                    > Dave 8{)
                    >
                  • Pierre Coueffin
                    I think I d rather have it bored oversized but concentric with thick walls, and use 4 set screws to align the round way. Like a 4-jaw chuck. It might take 4
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                      I think I'd rather have it bored oversized but concentric with thick walls, and use 4 set screws to align the round way.  Like a 4-jaw chuck.  It might take 4 rows of set screws to withstand cutting forces.

                      Accurately boring an eccentric bushing with one of the ways on your lathe badly worn does not seem like an easy thing to do.

                      On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Pat <rigmatch@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks Dave
                      I added the eccentric bushing thing as an after though because I saw it mentioned somewhere as a way to correct a misaligned round way. It is not meant to be rotated but just bored off center and inserted to correct the problem.

                      Pat



                      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 12/14/2010 10:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                      > > will somebody say something??????
                      >
                      > Something??????
                      >
                      > Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way
                      > will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                      > settings at most and you can be parallel at only two settings at most.
                      > This is exacerbated by the fact that the settings for parallel and
                      > coplanar probably will be different.
                      >
                      > If you get far enough out of alignment, it can be at one setting or at
                      > no settings. Clearly this is not the best way to do things.
                      >
                      > Dave 8{)
                      >


                    • keith gutshall
                      Hello Group  The more I study the drawings and description of it ,the more doubts I have about it suitability for what we need.    The concrete base is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                        Hello Group
                         The more I study the drawings and description of it ,the more doubts I have about
                        it suitability for what we need.
                         
                         The concrete base is going to add a lot of weight to the lift of the table.

                         The round ways appear to be hard to aline in the concrete base, and the tabs
                        to put them in ,you lose the thickness of the tab.
                         With a round way and the V shaped carriage part, the V only rest on a very narrow
                         slide point. The small area of contact is going to give a high loading on the point.
                         This high loading is going to wear quickly and lose accuracy of the machine.
                         
                         The design is a former machine( page 2 line 52 ) if you read close you will see that.
                         The leadscrew is to make fine adjustment to the form of the object being turned.
                         The weighted carriage just keeps it up to the form.
                         
                         There has to be better, simpler way to deal with this problem?
                         
                         Keith
                        Deep Run Portage
                        Back Shop
                        " The Lizard Works"

                        --- On Wed, 12/15/10, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:

                        From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
                        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: another crazy idea
                        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 11:22 AM

                         
                        On 12/14/2010 10:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                        > will somebody say something??????

                        Something??????

                        Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way
                        will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                        settings at most and you can be parallel at only two settings at most.
                        This is exacerbated by the fact that the settings for parallel and
                        coplanar probably will be different.

                        If you get far enough out of alignment, it can be at one setting or at
                        no settings. Clearly this is not the best way to do things.

                        Dave 8{)

                      • Pat
                        Thanks Shannon I am fixated on cheaper and more simple (maybe my brain is simple and certainly it is unable to explain something not simple!). There is not
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                          Thanks Shannon
                          I am fixated on "cheaper" and "more simple" (maybe my brain is simple and certainly it is unable to explain something not simple!).

                          There is not much load on the rod end bushings because the load is supported by the horizontal bar that runs under the round ways. Drink bottle plastic should barely deform. Besides that pouring concrete over an unprotected way is just plain ugly.

                          I chose the plastic because something non corrosive needs to be between the steel and concrete so that the round ways can eventually be turned to compensate for wear.

                          I would align the ways with steel wedges lightly driven into the oversize core holes before grouting the ways in. Last year (while I could still walk) I made a bunch of these with a chop saw in a very short time. A hack saw would also work.

                          Yeomans lathes were built in a different way. We don't have factory jigs or special type metal poured at exact temperatures We also don't have to turn out a machine in 8 hours but he could afterwards turn his ways and so can we.

                          Pat


                          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Howdy Pat,
                          >
                          > Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got
                          > side-tracked doing other things...
                          >
                          > In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings you are talking about
                          > as item 36 in the patent drawings. According to his description at page
                          > 2, line 37;
                          >
                          > "...The ends of these guide-rods are mounted in sleeves 36 which are
                          > mounted in supporting lugs 37 integral with the bed 10."
                          >
                          > Then at line 113 of the same page;
                          >
                          > "In constructing the machine the main castings are molded with enlarged
                          > openings or recesses therein at the points where working parts or
                          > bearings are to be positioned. Finished stock bushings of the proper
                          > size are then suitably supported in working position within said
                          > recesses in the castings, and the space surrounding each bushing within
                          > its recess is filled by pouring therein a suitable molten metal which
                          > has the characteristic of expanding in cooling. When this filling metal
                          > has cooled and set, the bushings will be accurately held in working
                          > position are ready to receive the spindles, guide-rods, and other parts
                          > of the machine."
                          >
                          > I'm sure you've read that many times by now.
                          >
                          > If I understand your idea, you want to replace the "finished stock
                          > bushings" with plastic salvaged from drink bottles? I am not sure that
                          > would work if applied as a replacement to the item 36. How are you going
                          > to accurately position the ways (guide-rods)? Plastic deforms and would
                          > offer very little resistance to forces acting upon it. I think that in
                          > short order the ways would be floating in the plastic bushings. If
                          > grouted or epoxied in place, renewing the plastic bushings would be
                          > difficult if not nearly impossible.
                          >
                          > What if, instead of building exactly to the patent description, the lugs
                          > cast into the main body form one-half of a clamp with a hardwood cap
                          > forming the other half? Embed nuts in the concrete half to receive the
                          > bolts that hold the cap. The plastic sleeve is slipped over the pipe way
                          > at each end. The plastic would take-up clearances. The hardwood cap is
                          > bolted to the concrete recess through slotted holes to provide
                          > adjust-ability. The pipe can now be adjusted by plastic shims and moving
                          > the cap as needed, within reason of course. The clamping action would
                          > securely hold the plastic sleeve, shims, and pipe. When the plastic gets
                          > damaged, rather than having to dig out grout or epoxy, simply remove the
                          > cap and replace the plastic.
                          >
                          > What say you?
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                          > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
                          >
                          >
                          > On 12/14/2010 9:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                          > > will somebody say something??????
                          >
                        • Pat
                          I totally agree Pierre Pat
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 15, 2010
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                            I totally agree Pierre

                            Pat
                            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Pierre Coueffin <pcoueffin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think I'd rather have it bored oversized but concentric with thick walls,
                            > and use 4 set screws to align the round way. Like a 4-jaw chuck. It might
                            > take 4 rows of set screws to withstand cutting forces.
                            >
                            > Accurately boring an eccentric bushing with one of the ways on your lathe
                            > badly worn does not seem like an easy thing to do.
                            >
                            > On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Pat <rigmatch@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thanks Dave
                            > > I added the eccentric bushing thing as an after though because I saw it
                            > > mentioned somewhere as a way to correct a misaligned round way. It is not
                            > > meant to be rotated but just bored off center and inserted to correct the
                            > > problem.
                            > >
                            > > Pat
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com <multimachine%40yahoogroups.com>,
                            > > "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > On 12/14/2010 10:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                            > > > > will somebody say something??????
                            > > >
                            > > > Something??????
                            > > >
                            > > > Okay, the eccentric bushings are a bad idea because the end of the way
                            > > > will move in a circle, this means you can be coplanar at only two
                            > > > settings at most and you can be parallel at only two settings at most.
                            > > > This is exacerbated by the fact that the settings for parallel and
                            > > > coplanar probably will be different.
                            > > >
                            > > > If you get far enough out of alignment, it can be at one setting or at
                            > > > no settings. Clearly this is not the best way to do things.
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave 8{)
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • oldstudentmsgt
                            Pat, I think it will be easier and cheaper to go ahead and use the expanding metal here. Antimony is the metal that expands, and it s used in several
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
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                              Pat, I think it will be easier and cheaper to go ahead and use the "expanding metal" here. Antimony is the metal that expands, and it's used in several different kinds of solder. 95/5 Tin/Antimony solder is relatively cheap, and the old-fashioned (as of very recently) lead wheel weights are hardened with antimony. You can melt either of those with a propane torch, or over a charcoal fire in a cast iron pot. I've done a little travelling over the years, and I've found lead wheelweights in Germany, Turkey, and Morocco, so I imagine they are everywhere.

                              Here in the US, the wheelweights are getting hard to find, as they're now considered hazardous waste, but you can still scrounge them, and even find them on the street. If you know someone at a tire shop, you may be able to buy them as scrap.

                              Also, people who handload rounds for their firearms use the lead/antimony alloy (often wheelweights) for cast-lead bullets because it makes for harder bullets that expand and fill the bullet molds exactly.

                              http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/substances/toxsubstance.asp?toxid=58 gives information on Antimony's hazards, and other uses some sources...

                              HTH!

                              Bill in OKC

                              --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks Shannon
                              > I am fixated on "cheaper" and "more simple" (maybe my brain is simple and certainly it is unable to explain something not simple!).
                              >
                              > There is not much load on the rod end bushings because the load is supported by the horizontal bar that runs under the round ways. Drink bottle plastic should barely deform. Besides that pouring concrete over an unprotected way is just plain ugly.
                              >
                              > I chose the plastic because something non corrosive needs to be between the steel and concrete so that the round ways can eventually be turned to compensate for wear.
                              >
                              > I would align the ways with steel wedges lightly driven into the oversize core holes before grouting the ways in. Last year (while I could still walk) I made a bunch of these with a chop saw in a very short time. A hack saw would also work.
                              >
                              > Yeomans lathes were built in a different way. We don't have factory jigs or special type metal poured at exact temperatures We also don't have to turn out a machine in 8 hours but he could afterwards turn his ways and so can we.
                              >
                              > Pat
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Howdy Pat,
                              > >
                              > > Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got
                              > > side-tracked doing other things...
                              > >
                              > > In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings you are talking about
                              > > as item 36 in the patent drawings. According to his description at page
                              > > 2, line 37;
                              > >
                              > > "...The ends of these guide-rods are mounted in sleeves 36 which are
                              > > mounted in supporting lugs 37 integral with the bed 10."
                              > >
                              > > Then at line 113 of the same page;
                              > >
                              > > "In constructing the machine the main castings are molded with enlarged
                              > > openings or recesses therein at the points where working parts or
                              > > bearings are to be positioned. Finished stock bushings of the proper
                              > > size are then suitably supported in working position within said
                              > > recesses in the castings, and the space surrounding each bushing within
                              > > its recess is filled by pouring therein a suitable molten metal which
                              > > has the characteristic of expanding in cooling. When this filling metal
                              > > has cooled and set, the bushings will be accurately held in working
                              > > position are ready to receive the spindles, guide-rods, and other parts
                              > > of the machine."
                              > >
                              > > I'm sure you've read that many times by now.
                              > >
                              > > If I understand your idea, you want to replace the "finished stock
                              > > bushings" with plastic salvaged from drink bottles? I am not sure that
                              > > would work if applied as a replacement to the item 36. How are you going
                              > > to accurately position the ways (guide-rods)? Plastic deforms and would
                              > > offer very little resistance to forces acting upon it. I think that in
                              > > short order the ways would be floating in the plastic bushings. If
                              > > grouted or epoxied in place, renewing the plastic bushings would be
                              > > difficult if not nearly impossible.
                              > >
                              > > What if, instead of building exactly to the patent description, the lugs
                              > > cast into the main body form one-half of a clamp with a hardwood cap
                              > > forming the other half? Embed nuts in the concrete half to receive the
                              > > bolts that hold the cap. The plastic sleeve is slipped over the pipe way
                              > > at each end. The plastic would take-up clearances. The hardwood cap is
                              > > bolted to the concrete recess through slotted holes to provide
                              > > adjust-ability. The pipe can now be adjusted by plastic shims and moving
                              > > the cap as needed, within reason of course. The clamping action would
                              > > securely hold the plastic sleeve, shims, and pipe. When the plastic gets
                              > > damaged, rather than having to dig out grout or epoxy, simply remove the
                              > > cap and replace the plastic.
                              > >
                              > > What say you?
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > >
                              > > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                              > > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On 12/14/2010 9:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                              > > > will somebody say something??????
                              > >
                              >
                            • Pat
                              Hi Bill The Yeomans stuff at http://tinyurl.com/22uzmlc explains that the alloy and the casting temperature were trade secrets arrived at after a lot of
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Bill

                                The Yeomans stuff at http://tinyurl.com/22uzmlc explains that the alloy and the casting temperature were trade secrets arrived at after a lot of research. All we are need is non shrinking grout and some way to keep the grout from sticking to the round way. Drink bottle plastic and tie wire should work OK (I think).

                                Pat


                                --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudentmsgt" <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Pat, I think it will be easier and cheaper to go ahead and use the "expanding metal" here. Antimony is the metal that expands, and it's used in several different kinds of solder. 95/5 Tin/Antimony solder is relatively cheap, and the old-fashioned (as of very recently) lead wheel weights are hardened with antimony. You can melt either of those with a propane torch, or over a charcoal fire in a cast iron pot. I've done a little travelling over the years, and I've found lead wheelweights in Germany, Turkey, and Morocco, so I imagine they are everywhere.
                                >
                                > Here in the US, the wheelweights are getting hard to find, as they're now considered hazardous waste, but you can still scrounge them, and even find them on the street. If you know someone at a tire shop, you may be able to buy them as scrap.
                                >
                                > Also, people who handload rounds for their firearms use the lead/antimony alloy (often wheelweights) for cast-lead bullets because it makes for harder bullets that expand and fill the bullet molds exactly.
                                >
                                > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/substances/toxsubstance.asp?toxid=58 gives information on Antimony's hazards, and other uses some sources...
                                >
                                > HTH!
                                >
                                > Bill in OKC
                                >
                                > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks Shannon
                                > > I am fixated on "cheaper" and "more simple" (maybe my brain is simple and certainly it is unable to explain something not simple!).
                                > >
                                > > There is not much load on the rod end bushings because the load is supported by the horizontal bar that runs under the round ways. Drink bottle plastic should barely deform. Besides that pouring concrete over an unprotected way is just plain ugly.
                                > >
                                > > I chose the plastic because something non corrosive needs to be between the steel and concrete so that the round ways can eventually be turned to compensate for wear.
                                > >
                                > > I would align the ways with steel wedges lightly driven into the oversize core holes before grouting the ways in. Last year (while I could still walk) I made a bunch of these with a chop saw in a very short time. A hack saw would also work.
                                > >
                                > > Yeomans lathes were built in a different way. We don't have factory jigs or special type metal poured at exact temperatures We also don't have to turn out a machine in 8 hours but he could afterwards turn his ways and so can we.
                                > >
                                > > Pat
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Howdy Pat,
                                > > >
                                > > > Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got
                                > > > side-tracked doing other things...
                                > > >
                                > > > In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings you are talking about
                                > > > as item 36 in the patent drawings. According to his description at page
                                > > > 2, line 37;
                                > > >
                                > > > "...The ends of these guide-rods are mounted in sleeves 36 which are
                                > > > mounted in supporting lugs 37 integral with the bed 10."
                                > > >
                                > > > Then at line 113 of the same page;
                                > > >
                                > > > "In constructing the machine the main castings are molded with enlarged
                                > > > openings or recesses therein at the points where working parts or
                                > > > bearings are to be positioned. Finished stock bushings of the proper
                                > > > size are then suitably supported in working position within said
                                > > > recesses in the castings, and the space surrounding each bushing within
                                > > > its recess is filled by pouring therein a suitable molten metal which
                                > > > has the characteristic of expanding in cooling. When this filling metal
                                > > > has cooled and set, the bushings will be accurately held in working
                                > > > position are ready to receive the spindles, guide-rods, and other parts
                                > > > of the machine."
                                > > >
                                > > > I'm sure you've read that many times by now.
                                > > >
                                > > > If I understand your idea, you want to replace the "finished stock
                                > > > bushings" with plastic salvaged from drink bottles? I am not sure that
                                > > > would work if applied as a replacement to the item 36. How are you going
                                > > > to accurately position the ways (guide-rods)? Plastic deforms and would
                                > > > offer very little resistance to forces acting upon it. I think that in
                                > > > short order the ways would be floating in the plastic bushings. If
                                > > > grouted or epoxied in place, renewing the plastic bushings would be
                                > > > difficult if not nearly impossible.
                                > > >
                                > > > What if, instead of building exactly to the patent description, the lugs
                                > > > cast into the main body form one-half of a clamp with a hardwood cap
                                > > > forming the other half? Embed nuts in the concrete half to receive the
                                > > > bolts that hold the cap. The plastic sleeve is slipped over the pipe way
                                > > > at each end. The plastic would take-up clearances. The hardwood cap is
                                > > > bolted to the concrete recess through slotted holes to provide
                                > > > adjust-ability. The pipe can now be adjusted by plastic shims and moving
                                > > > the cap as needed, within reason of course. The clamping action would
                                > > > securely hold the plastic sleeve, shims, and pipe. When the plastic gets
                                > > > damaged, rather than having to dig out grout or epoxy, simply remove the
                                > > > cap and replace the plastic.
                                > > >
                                > > > What say you?
                                > > >
                                > > > Regards,
                                > > >
                                > > > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                                > > > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > On 12/14/2010 9:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                                > > > > will somebody say something??????
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • michael broadbent
                                Hi    when lead became a safty problem ? we used a alloy called kirksite. It was easy to cast and one of the uses we played with was to pour it into holes
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 16, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi
                                     when lead became a safty problem ? we used a alloy called kirksite.
                                  It was easy to cast and one of the uses we played with was to pour it into holes bored in concrete with threaded studding inserted to use as a floor fixing.Now I believe a quick setting polymer is used.One thing we found was that it was possible to unsrew the studding.
                                  It was easy to work and heavy only drawback was when machining it could not be allowed to over heat.
                                   
                                  Mikeafloat 

                                  From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
                                  To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thu, 16 December, 2010 19:43:25
                                  Subject: [multimachine] Re: another crazy idea

                                  Hi Bill

                                  The Yeomans stuff at http://tinyurl.com/22uzmlc explains that the alloy and the casting temperature were trade secrets arrived at after a lot of research. All we are need is non shrinking grout and some way to keep the grout from sticking to the round way. Drink bottle plastic and tie wire should work OK (I think).

                                  Pat


                                  --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudentmsgt" <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Pat, I think it will be easier and cheaper to go ahead and use the "expanding metal" here. Antimony is the metal that expands, and it's used in several different kinds of solder. 95/5 Tin/Antimony solder is relatively cheap, and the old-fashioned (as of very recently) lead wheel weights are hardened with antimony. You can melt either of those with a propane torch, or over a charcoal fire in a cast iron pot. I've done a little travelling over the years, and I've found lead wheelweights in Germany, Turkey, and Morocco, so I imagine they are everywhere.
                                  >
                                  > Here in the US, the wheelweights are getting hard to find, as they're now considered hazardous waste, but you can still scrounge them, and even find them on the street. If you know someone at a tire shop, you may be able to buy them as scrap.
                                  >
                                  > Also, people who handload rounds for their firearms use the lead/antimony alloy (often wheelweights) for cast-lead bullets because it makes for harder bullets that expand and fill the bullet molds exactly.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/substances/toxsubstance.asp?toxid=58 gives information on Antimony's hazards, and other uses some sources...
                                  >
                                  > HTH!
                                  >
                                  > Bill in OKC
                                  >
                                  > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat" <rigmatch@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks Shannon
                                  > > I am fixated on "cheaper" and "more simple" (maybe my brain is simple and certainly it is unable to explain something not simple!).
                                  > >
                                  > > There is not much load on the rod end bushings because the load is supported by the horizontal bar that runs under the round ways. Drink bottle plastic should barely deform. Besides that pouring concrete over an unprotected way is just plain ugly.
                                  > >
                                  > > I chose the plastic because something non corrosive needs to be between the steel and concrete so that the round ways can eventually be turned to compensate for wear.
                                  > >
                                  > > I would align the ways with steel wedges lightly driven into the oversize core holes before grouting the ways in. Last year (while I could still walk) I made a bunch of these with a chop saw in a very short time. A hack saw would also work.
                                  > >
                                  > > Yeomans lathes were built in a different way. We don't have factory jigs or special type metal poured at exact temperatures We also don't have to turn out a machine in 8 hours but he could afterwards turn his ways and so can we.
                                  > >
                                  > > Pat
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Howdy Pat,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sorry for not responding. No excuse. I read the post but got
                                  > > > side-tracked doing other things...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In the patent, Mr. Yeomans calls out the bushings you are talking about
                                  > > > as item 36 in the patent drawings. According to his description at page
                                  > > > 2, line 37;
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "...The ends of these guide-rods are mounted in sleeves 36 which are
                                  > > > mounted in supporting lugs 37 integral with the bed 10."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Then at line 113 of the same page;
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "In constructing the machine the main castings are molded with enlarged
                                  > > > openings or recesses therein at the points where working parts or
                                  > > > bearings are to be positioned.  Finished stock bushings of the proper
                                  > > > size are then suitably supported in working position within said
                                  > > > recesses in the castings, and the space surrounding each bushing within
                                  > > > its recess is filled by pouring therein a suitable molten metal which
                                  > > > has the characteristic of expanding in cooling.  When this filling metal
                                  > > > has cooled and set, the bushings will be accurately held in working
                                  > > > position are ready to receive the spindles, guide-rods, and other parts
                                  > > > of the machine."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I'm sure you've read that many times by now.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If I understand your idea, you want to replace the "finished stock
                                  > > > bushings" with plastic salvaged from drink bottles? I am not sure that
                                  > > > would work if applied as a replacement to the item 36. How are you going
                                  > > > to accurately position the ways (guide-rods)? Plastic deforms and would
                                  > > > offer very little resistance to forces acting upon it. I think that in
                                  > > > short order the ways would be floating in the plastic bushings. If
                                  > > > grouted or epoxied in place, renewing the plastic bushings would be
                                  > > > difficult if not nearly impossible.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What if, instead of building exactly to the patent description, the lugs
                                  > > > cast into the main body form one-half of a clamp with a hardwood cap
                                  > > > forming the other half? Embed nuts in the concrete half to receive the
                                  > > > bolts that hold the cap. The plastic sleeve is slipped over the pipe way
                                  > > > at each end. The plastic would take-up clearances. The hardwood cap is
                                  > > > bolted to the concrete recess through slotted holes to provide
                                  > > > adjust-ability. The pipe can now be adjusted by plastic shims and moving
                                  > > > the cap as needed, within reason of course. The clamping action would
                                  > > > securely hold the plastic sleeve, shims, and pipe. When the plastic gets
                                  > > > damaged, rather than having to dig out grout or epoxy, simply remove the
                                  > > > cap and replace the plastic.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What say you?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Regards,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                                  > > > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On 12/14/2010 9:56 PM, Pat wrote:
                                  > > > > will somebody say something??????
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >




                                  ------------------------------------

                                  -------------
                                  We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                                  Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                                  http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
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