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Re: The best ever use for a MM?

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  • Jeff
    Pat I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a simpler level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water purifier. It would seem to be
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 20, 2006
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      Pat

      I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a simpler
      level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water purifier. It
      would seem to be more practicle than a distilation type system.
      Sterling engines don't have to be that complex.
      Yahoo groups has several groups that make Sterling cycle engines
      from almost anything. Possibly one of the groups could help with
      a system big enough to run a car alternator or a small generator.
      Our industrial revolution started with 1.5 -5hp one lung engines
      running on almost anything. I thought that China would step up and
      flood the world with these things but it hasn't happened. Could we
      figure out how to build an engine from junk with the help of a MM?
      Jeff

      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Delany" <rigmatch@...> wrote:
      >
      > What ever you do, don't miss this:
      >
      http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/16/technology/business2_futureboy0216/inde
      x
      > .htm
      > Stirling engines require very precise construction so suppose we
      > combine tapered ZA-27 bushings that can be adjusted for no play, a
      > low pressure spindle oil system made from a power steering pump and a
      > scaled up as necessary Grizzly cross feed found at:
      > http://www.grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?
      q=x+y+cross&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
      >
      > The XY cross slide could be mounted on a cement filled ZA-27 angle
      > plate that would be bolted to the block face. A different machine
      > could be tailor made for each critical type of operation.
      >
    • hepps_29646
      Jeff, Are those old one lug engines also referred to as hit and miss engines? The only one that I know of still in production is made by several companies in
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 21, 2006
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        Jeff,
        Are those old one lug engines also referred to as hit and miss
        engines? The only one that I know of still in production is made by
        several companies in India. It's a diesel referred to as a Listeroid
        being based on or copied from a famous English Lister engine. Some
        people run these on waste french fry grease. I believe the old gas
        engines ran on nearly any kind of liquid fuel that could be had but I
        may be wrong.

        Your idea got me thinking that it might be possible to use the best
        cylinder of a worn out 4, 6, or V8 to make a one lugger. Possibly
        removing the pistons from the non working cylinders. I would hardly
        know where to begin adjusting the timing and valves to do this but
        someone else might. As for fuel wood gas is a possible alternative it
        might be possible to use cow dung instead of wood to make the gas.
        The yahoo "woodgas" group does alot of research in this area.

        Here's a link to a local dealer in Listeroid engines.

        http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html

        Best wishes,
        Harold

        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <jhan5en@...> wrote:
        >
        > Pat
        >
        > I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a simpler
        > level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water purifier. It
        > would seem to be more practicle than a distilation type system.
        > Sterling engines don't have to be that complex.
        > Yahoo groups has several groups that make Sterling cycle engines
        > from almost anything. Possibly one of the groups could help with
        > a system big enough to run a car alternator or a small generator.
        > Our industrial revolution started with 1.5 -5hp one lung engines
        > running on almost anything. I thought that China would step up and
        > flood the world with these things but it hasn't happened. Could we
        > figure out how to build an engine from junk with the help of a MM?
        > Jeff
      • Pat Delany
        Harold Maybe the makings of a very good idea. If the cost of fuel keeps increasing then non subsidized fuel in the third world is going to be too expensive for
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 21, 2006
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          Harold
          Maybe the makings of a very good idea. If the cost of fuel keeps
          increasing then non subsidized fuel in the third world is going to be
          too expensive for almost anybody. Maybe the combination of a bio
          digester storing enough gas in 24 hours could run a multi-cylinder
          engine converted to a single cylinder for 4 or 5 hours. An alternator
          and battery should power a bunch of leds for village lighting.
          A Stirling seems too complex and delicate for this old man to get
          excited about. Hit and miss engines are all over the place in east TX
          and I love to hear them run.
          Has anyone heard of a conversion like this?

          Pat
          -- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "hepps_29646" <hepps_29646@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jeff,
          > Are those old one lug engines also referred to as hit and miss
          > engines? The only one that I know of still in production is made by
          > several companies in India. It's a diesel referred to as a Listeroid
          > being based on or copied from a famous English Lister engine. Some
          > people run these on waste french fry grease. I believe the old gas
          > engines ran on nearly any kind of liquid fuel that could be had but I
          > may be wrong.
          >
          > Your idea got me thinking that it might be possible to use the best
          > cylinder of a worn out 4, 6, or V8 to make a one lugger. Possibly
          > removing the pistons from the non working cylinders. I would hardly
          > know where to begin adjusting the timing and valves to do this but
          > someone else might. As for fuel wood gas is a possible alternative it
          > might be possible to use cow dung instead of wood to make the gas.
          > The yahoo "woodgas" group does alot of research in this area.
          >
          > Here's a link to a local dealer in Listeroid engines.
          >
          > http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Harold
          >
          > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <jhan5en@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Pat
          > >
          > > I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a simpler
          > > level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water purifier. It
          > > would seem to be more practicle than a distilation type system.
          > > Sterling engines don't have to be that complex.
          > > Yahoo groups has several groups that make Sterling cycle engines
          > > from almost anything. Possibly one of the groups could help with
          > > a system big enough to run a car alternator or a small generator.
          > > Our industrial revolution started with 1.5 -5hp one lung engines
          > > running on almost anything. I thought that China would step up and
          > > flood the world with these things but it hasn't happened. Could we
          > > figure out how to build an engine from junk with the help of a MM?
          > > Jeff
          >
        • hepps_29646
          Pat, The digester sounds like a better solution than burning the manure to me too. Even with the Stirling engine it would allow the manure to be used as
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 21, 2006
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            Pat,
            The digester sounds like a better solution than burning the manure to
            me too. Even with the Stirling engine it would allow the manure to be
            used as compost rather than going up as smoke.

            I don't know too much about Stirlings but I suspect that a hit and
            miss would be more efficient. I love to hear them run too.

            Harold


            Maybe the combination of a bio
            > digester storing enough gas in 24 hours could run a multi-cylinder
            > engine converted to a single cylinder for 4 or 5 hours. An alternator
            > and battery should power a bunch of leds for village lighting.
            > A Stirling seems too complex and delicate for this old man to get
            > excited about. Hit and miss engines are all over the place in east TX
            > and I love to hear them run.
            > Has anyone heard of a conversion like this?
            >
            > Pat
            > -- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "hepps_29646" <hepps_29646@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Jeff,
            > > Are those old one lug engines also referred to as hit and miss
            > > engines? The only one that I know of still in production is made by
            > > several companies in India. It's a diesel referred to as a Listeroid
            > > being based on or copied from a famous English Lister engine. Some
            > > people run these on waste french fry grease. I believe the old gas
            > > engines ran on nearly any kind of liquid fuel that could be had but I
            > > may be wrong.
            > >
            > > Your idea got me thinking that it might be possible to use the best
            > > cylinder of a worn out 4, 6, or V8 to make a one lugger. Possibly
            > > removing the pistons from the non working cylinders. I would hardly
            > > know where to begin adjusting the timing and valves to do this but
            > > someone else might. As for fuel wood gas is a possible alternative it
            > > might be possible to use cow dung instead of wood to make the gas.
            > > The yahoo "woodgas" group does alot of research in this area.
            > >
            > > Here's a link to a local dealer in Listeroid engines.
            > >
            > > http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html
            > >
            > > Best wishes,
            > > Harold
            > >
            > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <jhan5en@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Pat
            > > >
            > > > I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a simpler
            > > > level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water
            purifier. It
            > > > would seem to be more practicle than a distilation type system.
            > > > Sterling engines don't have to be that complex.
            > > > Yahoo groups has several groups that make Sterling cycle engines
            > > > from almost anything. Possibly one of the groups could help with
            > > > a system big enough to run a car alternator or a small generator.
            > > > Our industrial revolution started with 1.5 -5hp one lung engines
            > > > running on almost anything. I thought that China would step up and
            > > > flood the world with these things but it hasn't happened. Could we
            > > > figure out how to build an engine from junk with the help of a MM?
            > > > Jeff
            > >
            >
          • kwolson2002
            Guys - Sorry I ve been incommunicado for a few days - we suddenly had a glut of work, modeling up some medical implants and now some rehab/exercise equipment.
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 22, 2006
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              Guys -

              Sorry I've been incommunicado for a few days - we suddenly had a glut
              of work, modeling up some medical implants and now some
              rehab/exercise equipment. Pat, I'm still working on the twin-bed
              Romig, it's just been simmering on the back burner.

              There was a book in the 70s called "Producing Your Own Power" which
              had an article/chapter (the book was an anthology of sorts)
              discussing how to make a "four-cow" bio-gas digester; IIRC Ram Bux
              Singh was the Indian involved in the design, but there were others in
              the US and UK. The methane produced was used for gas lights and
              cooking - with some scrubbing of sulfur compounds, etc. it could be
              used to run an IC engine. Compression makes storage more compact, but
              decreases overall cycle efficiency (compressing gas takes a lot of
              work).

              Also, the sewage sludge left as a byproduct of digestion is a very
              good fertilizer/soil builder.

              I don't know what work has been done lately in this area, but if
              clean enough methane can be made, it could be used in a fuel cell to
              make electricity directly, but it requires a pretty high-tech
              factory/lab to build fuel cells.

              Kevin


              --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "hepps_29646" <hepps_29646@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Pat,
              > The digester sounds like a better solution than burning the manure
              to
              > me too. Even with the Stirling engine it would allow the manure to
              be
              > used as compost rather than going up as smoke.
              >
              > I don't know too much about Stirlings but I suspect that a hit and
              > miss would be more efficient. I love to hear them run too.
              >
              > Harold
              >
              >
              > Maybe the combination of a bio
              > > digester storing enough gas in 24 hours could run a multi-cylinder
              > > engine converted to a single cylinder for 4 or 5 hours. An
              alternator
              > > and battery should power a bunch of leds for village lighting.
              > > A Stirling seems too complex and delicate for this old man to get
              > > excited about. Hit and miss engines are all over the place in
              east TX
              > > and I love to hear them run.
              > > Has anyone heard of a conversion like this?
              > >
              > > Pat
              > > -- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "hepps_29646" <hepps_29646@>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Jeff,
              > > > Are those old one lug engines also referred to as hit and miss
              > > > engines? The only one that I know of still in production is
              made by
              > > > several companies in India. It's a diesel referred to as a
              Listeroid
              > > > being based on or copied from a famous English Lister engine.
              Some
              > > > people run these on waste french fry grease. I believe the old
              gas
              > > > engines ran on nearly any kind of liquid fuel that could be had
              but I
              > > > may be wrong.
              > > >
              > > > Your idea got me thinking that it might be possible to use the
              best
              > > > cylinder of a worn out 4, 6, or V8 to make a one lugger.
              Possibly
              > > > removing the pistons from the non working cylinders. I would
              hardly
              > > > know where to begin adjusting the timing and valves to do this
              but
              > > > someone else might. As for fuel wood gas is a possible
              alternative it
              > > > might be possible to use cow dung instead of wood to make the
              gas.
              > > > The yahoo "woodgas" group does alot of research in this area.
              > > >
              > > > Here's a link to a local dealer in Listeroid engines.
              > > >
              > > > http://members.aol.com/westernstar66/indianlisters.html
              > > >
              > > > Best wishes,
              > > > Harold
              > > >
              > > > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <jhan5en@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Pat
              > > > >
              > > > > I like their ideas, I think that it can be done at even a
              simpler
              > > > > level. We had a link to that concrete sand filled water
              > purifier. It
              > > > > would seem to be more practicle than a distilation type
              system.
              > > > > Sterling engines don't have to be that complex.
              > > > > Yahoo groups has several groups that make Sterling cycle
              engines
              > > > > from almost anything. Possibly one of the groups could help
              with
              > > > > a system big enough to run a car alternator or a small
              generator.
              > > > > Our industrial revolution started with 1.5 -5hp one lung
              engines
              > > > > running on almost anything. I thought that China would step
              up and
              > > > > flood the world with these things but it hasn't happened.
              Could we
              > > > > figure out how to build an engine from junk with the help of
              a MM?
              > > > > Jeff
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Route-To Multi
              ... Ah, but you don t have to use up the *gas* to do that work! There are two primary energy source classes to consider when talking about energy management:
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 23, 2006
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                Kevin ("kwolson2002") wrote:
                > There was a book in the 70s called "Producing Your Own Power" which
                > had an article/chapter (the book was an anthology of sorts)
                > discussing how to make a "four-cow" bio-gas digester; [...]
                > [and] it could be used to run an IC engine. Compression makes
                > storage more compact, but decreases overall cycle efficiency
                > (compressing gas takes a lot of work).

                Ah, but you don't have to use up the *gas* to do that work!

                There are two primary energy source classes to consider when
                talking about energy management: PORTABLE and FIXED LOCATON
                sources.

                The primary advantage of hydocarbon production is that it
                represents a *portable*, high density energy source. Portable
                HD energy sources are the mainstay of any third world country
                without energy distribution and waste infrastructures
                (wires, gas pipeliness, sewers, etc.) These include battery
                chemistries, hydrocarbon cycle devices (burning a gas for
                light/heat, gasoline engines), etc.

                OTOH, hydro, large solar arrays, wave power, windmills, et al
                may be available, but tend to be *fixed* location energy sources.
                To get energy beyond the local device, you need a distribution
                system, such as wiring, plumbing, mechanical shafts (in for
                example an 1800's steam engine driven factory), etc.

                Now in developing areas, you often HAVE lots of energy sources,
                but to tap them you have to BE there. The DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
                is missing.

                But if you use the fixed source to produce the PORTABLE
                source, THAT is VERY useful in developing areas. (Aha!)

                ...SO... In THIS case, one solution would be to use *hydro* or
                other "free" fixed location energy source for the compression
                of the biodigester gas, to create the PORTABLE energy source.
                There is NO "efficiency losses", if the water is falling anyway.

                Examples:
                - A simple undershot water wheel on a river running a
                digester gas compressor;
                - A river powered "Hydraulic Ram Pump" filling a high water
                storage tank located on the hillside above the river, to give
                short bursts of electricity with a drop turbine / alternator
                combo when filled, for intermittent hydrogen gas production.

                > I don't know what work has been done lately in this area, but
                > if clean enough methane can be made, it could be used in a fuel
                > cell to make electricity directly, but it requires a pretty
                > high-tech factory/lab to build fuel cells.

                Well, producing hydrogen gas by electrolysis is certainly possible.
                You convert whatever continuous energy source you have available
                into electricity, and split water with a catalytic electrode.
                (If you need to clean up the water first to save the electrodes,
                you can distill it, but that's a lot of power...).

                But how are you going to handle the output? Hydrogen gas handling
                and storage is tough. It's pretty corrosive to most common low tech
                materials, and instantly burns torch-like with an ultraviolet
                flame when under pressure and a pinhole leak occurs (which can
                slice off fingers etc. without warning when you get near the container,
                or try to handle it. I'd need to hear from a chemist to see
                if there's a decent compound cycle or third world zeolite you
                can sequester the hydrogen into to avoid needing high tech materials,
                fittings, and/or pressure vessels.

                Anyway, this is ALL a subject for ANOTHER group...

                The bottom line Rule of Thumb to remember that's applicable HERE
                is that whenever you have a LARGE capacity but FIXED location energy
                source available (like falling water), you try to use as much of
                THAT energy source as possible for "processing" of your hydrocarbons.
                This way, you save ALL of the carbon cycle's potential energy for
                the PORTABLE use.

                OB On List-Topic comment:

                Now, once you HAVE that hydrocarbon, YES, IMHO USING it to
                power the multimachine is a VERY smart idea!

                But is a DUAL purpose multimachine base smart, or not?

                Let's say you create the multimachine stand out of an old engine
                block. It is flipped around so that the "bad" cylinders are the
                ones bored out for the table bars, while one or more "good"
                cylinders in the base are reserved for conversion into a One
                or Two Lunger engine to power it. <grin> Sounds cool at first
                blush...

                MY question: Would the vibration from the engine "stand" cause
                too much error in machining to be worth the trouble? (Or is the
                combination a GOOD idea, to allow close mechanical coupling of
                the engine to the machine itself, and less engine blocks required
                to *make* the machine?)

                If vibration is a problem and there are more engine blocks available,
                then you're probably better off building the hit/miss engine (fueled
                locally of course) with a second block, using whatever cylinders are
                still good. You then either use leather drive belts or shafts from
                it (with couplings) to drive your multimachine in an 1800's factory
                style, or convert back and forth to electricity and wire them together.

                Comments?

                - Keith Mc.
              • Pat Delany
                Thank you Keith My search for simple overloads my brain sometimes. By all means do whatever you can do to isolate vibration that causes those interesting
                Message 7 of 8 , Feb 23, 2006
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                  Thank you Keith

                  My search for simple overloads my brain sometimes.
                  By all means do whatever you can do to isolate vibration that causes
                  those interesting patterns whenever you try to machine a smooth
                  surface. A hit and miss engine would make the worst kind of vibration
                  that I can think of. A BIG flywheel and as much isolation as possible
                  should be the rule.

                  Pat
                  --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Keith Mc. (Route-To Multi)
                  <acti@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Kevin ("kwolson2002") wrote:
                  > > There was a book in the 70s called "Producing Your Own Power" which
                  > > had an article/chapter (the book was an anthology of sorts)
                  > > discussing how to make a "four-cow" bio-gas digester; [...]
                  > > [and] it could be used to run an IC engine. Compression makes
                  > > storage more compact, but decreases overall cycle efficiency
                  > > (compressing gas takes a lot of work).
                  >
                  > Ah, but you don't have to use up the *gas* to do that work!
                  >
                  > There are two primary energy source classes to consider when
                  > talking about energy management: PORTABLE and FIXED LOCATON
                  > sources.
                  >
                  > The primary advantage of hydocarbon production is that it
                  > represents a *portable*, high density energy source. Portable
                  > HD energy sources are the mainstay of any third world country
                  > without energy distribution and waste infrastructures
                  > (wires, gas pipeliness, sewers, etc.) These include battery
                  > chemistries, hydrocarbon cycle devices (burning a gas for
                  > light/heat, gasoline engines), etc.
                  >
                  > OTOH, hydro, large solar arrays, wave power, windmills, et al
                  > may be available, but tend to be *fixed* location energy sources.
                  > To get energy beyond the local device, you need a distribution
                  > system, such as wiring, plumbing, mechanical shafts (in for
                  > example an 1800's steam engine driven factory), etc.
                  >
                  > Now in developing areas, you often HAVE lots of energy sources,
                  > but to tap them you have to BE there. The DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
                  > is missing.
                  >
                  > But if you use the fixed source to produce the PORTABLE
                  > source, THAT is VERY useful in developing areas. (Aha!)
                  >
                  > ...SO... In THIS case, one solution would be to use *hydro* or
                  > other "free" fixed location energy source for the compression
                  > of the biodigester gas, to create the PORTABLE energy source.
                  > There is NO "efficiency losses", if the water is falling anyway.
                  >
                  > Examples:
                  > - A simple undershot water wheel on a river running a
                  > digester gas compressor;
                  > - A river powered "Hydraulic Ram Pump" filling a high water
                  > storage tank located on the hillside above the river, to give
                  > short bursts of electricity with a drop turbine / alternator
                  > combo when filled, for intermittent hydrogen gas production.
                  >
                  > > I don't know what work has been done lately in this area, but
                  > > if clean enough methane can be made, it could be used in a fuel
                  > > cell to make electricity directly, but it requires a pretty
                  > > high-tech factory/lab to build fuel cells.
                  >
                  > Well, producing hydrogen gas by electrolysis is certainly possible.
                  > You convert whatever continuous energy source you have available
                  > into electricity, and split water with a catalytic electrode.
                  > (If you need to clean up the water first to save the electrodes,
                  > you can distill it, but that's a lot of power...).
                  >
                  > But how are you going to handle the output? Hydrogen gas handling
                  > and storage is tough. It's pretty corrosive to most common low tech
                  > materials, and instantly burns torch-like with an ultraviolet
                  > flame when under pressure and a pinhole leak occurs (which can
                  > slice off fingers etc. without warning when you get near the container,
                  > or try to handle it. I'd need to hear from a chemist to see
                  > if there's a decent compound cycle or third world zeolite you
                  > can sequester the hydrogen into to avoid needing high tech materials,
                  > fittings, and/or pressure vessels.
                  >
                  > Anyway, this is ALL a subject for ANOTHER group...
                  >
                  > The bottom line Rule of Thumb to remember that's applicable HERE
                  > is that whenever you have a LARGE capacity but FIXED location energy
                  > source available (like falling water), you try to use as much of
                  > THAT energy source as possible for "processing" of your hydrocarbons.
                  > This way, you save ALL of the carbon cycle's potential energy for
                  > the PORTABLE use.
                  >
                  > OB On List-Topic comment:
                  >
                  > Now, once you HAVE that hydrocarbon, YES, IMHO USING it to
                  > power the multimachine is a VERY smart idea!
                  >
                  > But is a DUAL purpose multimachine base smart, or not?
                  >
                  > Let's say you create the multimachine stand out of an old engine
                  > block. It is flipped around so that the "bad" cylinders are the
                  > ones bored out for the table bars, while one or more "good"
                  > cylinders in the base are reserved for conversion into a One
                  > or Two Lunger engine to power it. <grin> Sounds cool at first
                  > blush...
                  >
                  > MY question: Would the vibration from the engine "stand" cause
                  > too much error in machining to be worth the trouble? (Or is the
                  > combination a GOOD idea, to allow close mechanical coupling of
                  > the engine to the machine itself, and less engine blocks required
                  > to *make* the machine?)
                  >
                  > If vibration is a problem and there are more engine blocks available,
                  > then you're probably better off building the hit/miss engine (fueled
                  > locally of course) with a second block, using whatever cylinders are
                  > still good. You then either use leather drive belts or shafts from
                  > it (with couplings) to drive your multimachine in an 1800's factory
                  > style, or convert back and forth to electricity and wire them together.
                  >
                  > Comments?
                  >
                  > - Keith Mc.
                  >
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