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Re: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

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  • Pat Delany
    I noticed that there a lot of traditional looking boats that had outboard motor type transoms (but no motors). I found a fairly recent report that said that
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 25, 2013
      I noticed that there a lot of traditional looking boats that had outboard motor type transoms (but no motors). I found a fairly recent report that said that 65% of boats on the lake were still paddle powered.

      Haven't heard back from Jeremmy about this, maybe still sick or maybe in a state of shock over the idea.

      Pat


      From: HB <scfpigs@...>
      To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 10:00 PM
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

       
      Any design that won't fit anything is not good.
      A smart designer should always strive to make his work conform to what it is being designed for.
      Any well thought-out design of a boat will work in Lake Victoria even if it's not of the traditional shape.



      From: greg123452003 <greg123452003@...>
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 12:48 AM
      Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

       

      Before you go designing a propulsion system, look at the type of boat being used. Coming up with a design that won't fit the traditional boat is simply a waste of time as people are not going to build a new boat to fit in with your design. Google "boats, Lake Victoria", select "Images" and you'll see that traditional boats are generally double endebeigd. That greatly affects the design that will be acceptable.





    • michael broadbent
      Hi,    Having  travelled in a few longtails  there seem to be different types  using different power units .The fisher men seam to favour Honda  and
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 25, 2013
        Hi,
           Having  travelled in a few longtails  there seem to be different types  using
        different power units .The fisher men seam to favour Honda  and after the tsunam
        a group from Honda marine  were helping locals strip and repair the engines  this was in Ko Lanta.
        Up in Chantbri the boats had V6 engines and travelled at speeds to keep you pressed back in your seat.
        Using the large inter island car ferry the same idea as used by the longtails 
        mounted two 6cylinder diesel mounted amidships with the prop entering at about 30 degrees did away with stern gland .
         
        barge 

        From: oldhermit <orwhut@...>
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 10:40
        Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

        Dick,
        I did a Google search for Thai Longtail and the ones I found, seemed to have the engines mounted at the rear.  I also expected them to be powered by auto engines and they had Chinese air cooled engines.  Things must have changed since '69 and the Bond film.

        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Richard Underwood <richardu312@...> wrote:
        >
        > I rode in some of the long tail boats when I was on R&R in Bankok in
        > 1969. They were used as water taxis. The engine pivot was mounted on one
        > gunwale roughly equal distant from the bow and the stern. The boats were
        > banana shaped so either end could be the bow by raising the propeller
        > out of the water and pivoting it around to the other end of the boat.
        >
        > This was a very simple but functional design, no reverse gear required.
        > Also they never needed to turn the boat around, just stop at the dock
        > then turn the propeller to the other end of the boat and drive away
        > always going forward. My observation was that it would be very unwise to
        > be backing up in a boat in Bankok. There was a lot of traffic on the
        > waterways and they drove on the water just like on the land. It was
        > amazing how fast they could throttle down, swing the propeller up and
        > around and rev the engine up to avoid a collision.
        >
        > It was also pretty exciting to be sitting in a small boat, going way to
        > fast when suddenly a spinning propeller is coming towards you. I didn't
        > see any stops to control the maximum swing, it was a major miracle the
        > sides of the boats were intact.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Dick Underwood
        >
        >
        > On 04/24/2013 01:33 PM, Eggleston Lance wrote:
        > >
        > > Did that.
        > >
        > > Amongst the others, there is a pic of a guy driving a long tail.
        > > The " banana boat" shape is common in Thailand,
        > > and they have many long tails there.
        > >
        > > You mount the engine on a platform
        > > across the gunwales inside the transom.
        > > It sits high and pivots to steer the boat.
        > >
        > > lance
        > > ++++
        > >
        > > On Apr 24, 2013, at 3:48 AM, greg123452003 wrote:
        > >
        > >> Google "boats, Lake Victoria", select "Images" and you'll see that
        > >> traditional boats are generally double ended.
        > >
        > >
        >




        ------------------------------------

        -------------
        We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

        Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
        -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

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      • Pat Delany
        Thank you barge Always best to learn from someone who has been there and done that! What Jeremmy wants is a way to use a 125cc motorcycle engine to power a
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 25, 2013
          Thank you barge
          Always best to learn from someone who has been there and done that! What Jeremmy wants is a way to use a 125cc motorcycle engine to power a boat. The longtail setup seems to me (what ever that is worth) easiest to make since it needs only a lathe and a welder (one in his village). My big question is about cooling. A jackshaft and fan would be an obvious choice but adds much difficulty to construction. My question is this: If the motor was high enough to be in the airstream and had some added sheet metal to act as an airscoop, could it be kept cool enough to work?

          Pat


          From: michael broadbent <bargemaster24@...>
          To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:29 PM
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

           
          Hi,
             Having  travelled in a few longtails  there seem to be different types  using
          different power units .The fisher men seam to favour Honda  and after the tsunam
          a group from Honda marine  were helping locals strip and repair the engines  this was in Ko Lanta.
          Up in Chantbri the boats had V6 engines and travelled at speeds to keep you pressed back in your seat.
          Using the large inter island car ferry the same idea as used by the longtails 
          mounted two 6cylinder diesel mounted amidships with the prop entering at about 30 degrees did away with stern gland .
           
          barge 

          From: oldhermit <orwhut@...>
          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 10:40
          Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

          Dick,
          I did a Google search for Thai Longtail and the ones I found, seemed to have the engines mounted at the rear.  I also expected them to be powered by auto engines and they had Chinese air cooled engines.  Things must have changed since '69 and the Bond film.

          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Richard Underwood <richardu312@...> wrote:
          >
          > I rode in some of the long tail boats when I was on R&R in Bankok in
          > 1969. They were used as water taxis. The engine pivot was mounted on one
          > gunwale roughly equal distant from the bow and the stern. The boats were
          > banana shaped so either end could be the bow by raising the propeller
          > out of the water and pivoting it around to the other end of the boat.
          >
          > This was a very simple but functional design, no reverse gear required.
          > Also they never needed to turn the boat around, just stop at the dock
          > then turn the propeller to the other end of the boat and drive away
          > always going forward. My observation was that it would be very unwise to
          > be backing up in a boat in Bankok. There was a lot of traffic on the
          > waterways and they drove on the water just like on the land. It was
          > amazing how fast they could throttle down, swing the propeller up and
          > around and rev the engine up to avoid a collision.
          >
          > It was also pretty exciting to be sitting in a small boat, going way to
          > fast when suddenly a spinning propeller is coming towards you. I didn't
          > see any stops to control the maximum swing, it was a major miracle the
          > sides of the boats were intact.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Dick Underwood
          >
          >
          > On 04/24/2013 01:33 PM, Eggleston Lance wrote:
          > >
          > > Did that.
          > >
          > > Amongst the others, there is a pic of a guy driving a long tail.
          > > The " banana boat" shape is common in Thailand,
          > > and they have many long tails there.
          > >
          > > You mount the engine on a platform
          > > across the gunwales inside the transom.
          > > It sits high and pivots to steer the boat.
          > >
          > > lance
          > > ++++
          > >
          > > On Apr 24, 2013, at 3:48 AM, greg123452003 wrote:
          > >
          > >> Google "boats, Lake Victoria", select "Images" and you'll see that
          > >> traditional boats are generally double ended.
          > >
          > >
          >




          ------------------------------------

          -------------
          We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

          Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
          -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/

          <*> Your email settings:
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          <*> To change settings online go to:
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        • oldhermit
          So, the auto engine powered still exist. I was guessing the cost of fuel caused them to die out. Harold
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 25, 2013
            So, the auto engine powered still exist. I was guessing the cost of fuel caused them to die out.
            Harold

            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, michael broadbent <bargemaster24@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >    Having  travelled in a few longtails� there seem to be different types� using
            > different power units .The fisher men seam to favour Honda� and after the tsunam
            > a group from Honda marine� were helping locals strip and repair the engines� this was in Ko Lanta.
            > Up in Chantbri the boats had V6 engines and travelled at speeds to keep you pressed back in your seat.
            > Using the large inter island car ferry the same idea as used by the longtails�
            > mounted two 6cylinder diesel mounted amidships with the prop entering at about 30 degrees did away with stern gland�.
            > �
            > barge�
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: oldhermit <orwhut@...>
            > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2013, 10:40
            > Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion
            >
            >
            > Dick,
            > I did a Google search for Thai Longtail and the ones I found, seemed to have the engines mounted at the rear.� I also expected them to be powered by auto engines and they had Chinese air cooled engines.� Things must have changed since '69 and the Bond film.
            >
            > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Richard Underwood <richardu312@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I rode in some of the long tail boats when I was on R&R in Bankok in
            > > 1969. They were used as water taxis. The engine pivot was mounted on one
            > > gunwale roughly equal distant from the bow and the stern. The boats were
            > > banana shaped so either end could be the bow by raising the propeller
            > > out of the water and pivoting it around to the other end of the boat.
            > >
            > > This was a very simple but functional design, no reverse gear required.
            > > Also they never needed to turn the boat around, just stop at the dock
            > > then turn the propeller to the other end of the boat and drive away
            > > always going forward. My observation was that it would be very unwise to
            > > be backing up in a boat in Bankok. There was a lot of traffic on the
            > > waterways and they drove on the water just like on the land. It was
            > > amazing how fast they could throttle down, swing the propeller up and
            > > around and rev the engine up to avoid a collision.
            > >
            > > It was also pretty exciting to be sitting in a small boat, going way to
            > > fast when suddenly a spinning propeller is coming towards you. I didn't
            > > see any stops to control the maximum swing, it was a major miracle the
            > > sides of the boats were intact.
            > >
            > > Best wishes,
            > > Dick Underwood
            > >
            > >
            > > On 04/24/2013 01:33 PM, Eggleston Lance wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Did that.
            > > >
            > > > Amongst the others, there is a pic of a guy driving a long tail.
            > > > The " banana boat" shape is common in Thailand,
            > > > and they have many long tails there.
            > > >
            > > > You mount the engine on a platform
            > > > across the gunwales inside the transom.
            > > > It sits high and pivots to steer the boat.
            > > >
            > > > lance
            > > > ++++
            > > >
            > > > On Apr 24, 2013, at 3:48 AM, greg123452003 wrote:
            > > >
            > > >> Google "boats, Lake Victoria", select "Images" and you'll see that
            > > >> traditional boats are generally double ended.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > -------------
            > We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/
            >
            > Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
            > -------------Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            > � � http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
          • Charles Mitchard
            a couple of links that may be of help- http://robnoxious.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/building-plywood-pontoons-out-of-scrap/
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 25, 2013
            • pokerbacken
              work, uhm, yes, BUT (always that word), a boat designed for the pacific is actually suboptimal for even the Mediterranean, not to mention a fresh water lake,
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                work, uhm, yes,
                BUT (always that word), a boat designed for the pacific is actually suboptimal for even the Mediterranean, not to mention a fresh water lake, not by much but enough to affect mileage, loadbearing and top speed among other things.
                one reason for this is that the water has different density, another is that the swells and waves differ in wavelenght and steepness... but as you said most good designs will work decently.

                --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
                >
                > Any design that won't fit anything is not good.
                > A smart designer should always strive to make his work conform to what it is being designed for.
                > Any well thought-out design of a boat will work in Lake Victoria even if it's not of the traditional shape.
              • oldhermit
                Good finds, Charles. The bottom link indicates that they use 150cc motorcycle engines so, we know they ll work. Harold
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                  Good finds, Charles. The bottom link indicates that they use 150cc motorcycle engines so, we know they'll work.
                  Harold

                  --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Charles Mitchard <charlesmitchard@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > a couple of links that may be of help-
                  > http://robnoxious.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/building-plywood-pontoons-out-of-scrap/
                  > http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/10m-thai-long-tail-8144.html
                  > and just for fun=
                  > http://www.john-tom.com/Klong16/LongTail.html
                  >
                • David G. LeVine
                  ... If you look at a lawn mower, the fan is pretty simple and mounts on the crankshaft. The shrouding is not that complex. The real question is how cumbersome
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                    On 04/25/2013 03:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                    My question is this: If the motor was high enough to be in the airstream and had some added sheet metal to act as an airscoop, could it be kept cool enough to work?

                    If you look at a lawn mower, the fan is pretty simple and mounts on the crankshaft.  The shrouding is not that complex.

                    The real question is how cumbersome would it get.  If it needs a scoop 3 meters by 3 meters, it won't be very useful, if you look at the Thai racing boats, they run an air cooled 2 cycle engine with no additional cooling, but they run REALLY fast.  How fast will this boat need to go?

                    Dave  8{)

                    --


                    "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

                    Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
                  • michael broadbent
                    Hi ,     I cannot see that using an air cooled engine would present any unsolvable problems I have seen small concrete mixers using small two stroke engines
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                      Hi ,
                          I cannot see that using an air cooled engine would present any unsolvable problems I have seen small concrete mixers using small two stroke engines with very limited air flow for cooling.
                            The types of long tails are built to serve different tasks the ones used to ferry motor bikes have a open front were a plank can be run out to let a bike be ridden on and off the boat. The locals are most amused if a "big Nose" tourist miss the plank but all help to rescue bike and rider. I  have so far avoided  that embarrassment.
                             The fisher men use a boat with a high prow with a mounting point on a transom some two feet from the stern they seam to ride the waves okay.
                        While in Ko lanta  I take always  ride down to Old Lanta  town were there is a small boat yard
                      the last time i was there they were working on a boat which was double ended with a sharp low  bow and a transom pivot point at both ends .Not speaking Thia  but managing the best I could the idea was that the boat could be beached  then the engine moved to the other end so after re floating there was no need to turn the boat ,
                          I wish who ever is doing this project the best of luck
                       
                      Barge
                       
                       
                       

                      From: Charles Mitchard <charlesmitchard@...>
                      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, 26 April 2013, 2:26
                      Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

                      a couple of links that may be of help-
                      http://robnoxious.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/building-plywood-pontoons-out-of-scrap/
                      http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/10m-thai-long-tail-8144.html
                      and just for fun=
                      http://www.john-tom.com/Klong16/LongTail.html


                      ------------------------------------

                      -------------
                      We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                      Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
                      -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

                      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/

                      <*> Your email settings:
                          Individual Email | Traditional

                      <*> To change settings online go to:
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/join
                          (Yahoo! ID required)

                      <*> To change settings via email:
                          multimachine-digest@yahoogroups.com
                          multimachine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          multimachine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                    • Pat Delany
                      THANKS for the wonderful response!! and thanks Harold for the kind words. Dave, I wonder about speed and airflow also. The only thing I can find out about
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                        THANKS for the wonderful response!!
                        and thanks Harold for the kind words.

                        Dave,

                        I wonder about speed and airflow also. The only thing I can find out about speed is that a 6.5 hp Honda runs a common? size boat about 10 mph. Too many variables for me!

                        Pat


                        From: michael broadbent <bargemaster24@...>
                        To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 1:34 PM
                        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

                         
                        Hi ,
                            I cannot see that using an air cooled engine would present any unsolvable problems I have seen small concrete mixers using small two stroke engines with very limited air flow for cooling.
                              The types of long tails are built to serve different tasks the ones used to ferry motor bikes have a open front were a plank can be run out to let a bike be ridden on and off the boat. The locals are most amused if a "big Nose" tourist miss the plank but all help to rescue bike and rider. I  have so far avoided  that embarrassment.
                               The fisher men use a boat with a high prow with a mounting point on a transom some two feet from the stern they seam to ride the waves okay.
                          While in Ko lanta  I take always  ride down to Old Lanta  town were there is a small boat yard
                        the last time i was there they were working on a boat which was double ended with a sharp low  bow and a transom pivot point at both ends .Not speaking Thia  but managing the best I could the idea was that the boat could be beached  then the engine moved to the other end so after re floating there was no need to turn the boat ,
                            I wish who ever is doing this project the best of luck
                         
                        Barge
                         
                         
                         

                        From: Charles Mitchard <charlesmitchard@...>
                        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, 26 April 2013, 2:26
                        Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

                        a couple of links that may be of help-
                        http://robnoxious.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/building-plywood-pontoons-out-of-scrap/
                        http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/10m-thai-long-tail-8144.html
                        and just for fun=
                        http://www.john-tom.com/Klong16/LongTail.html


                        ------------------------------------

                        -------------
                        We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                        Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
                        -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

                        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/

                        <*> Your email settings:
                            Individual Email | Traditional

                        <*> To change settings online go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/join
                            (Yahoo! ID required)

                        <*> To change settings via email:
                            multimachine-digest@yahoogroups.com
                            multimachine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

                        <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            multimachine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                      • Pat Delany
                        Hi Barge Any chance you could get pictures/drawings of the motorcycle engine/longtail adapter? Pat ________________________________ From: michael broadbent
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                          Hi Barge
                          Any chance you could get pictures/drawings of the motorcycle engine/longtail adapter?

                          Pat


                          From: michael broadbent <bargemaster24@...>
                          To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, April 26, 2013 1:34 PM
                          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

                           
                          Hi ,
                              I cannot see that using an air cooled engine would present any unsolvable problems I have seen small concrete mixers using small two stroke engines with very limited air flow for cooling.
                                The types of long tails are built to serve different tasks the ones used to ferry motor bikes have a open front were a plank can be run out to let a bike be ridden on and off the boat. The locals are most amused if a "big Nose" tourist miss the plank but all help to rescue bike and rider. I  have so far avoided  that embarrassment.
                                 The fisher men use a boat with a high prow with a mounting point on a transom some two feet from the stern they seam to ride the waves okay.
                            While in Ko lanta  I take always  ride down to Old Lanta  town were there is a small boat yard
                          the last time i was there they were working on a boat which was double ended with a sharp low  bow and a transom pivot point at both ends .Not speaking Thia  but managing the best I could the idea was that the boat could be beached  then the engine moved to the other end so after re floating there was no need to turn the boat ,
                              I wish who ever is doing this project the best of luck
                           
                          Barge
                           
                           
                           

                          From: Charles Mitchard <charlesmitchard@...>
                          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, 26 April 2013, 2:26
                          Subject: [multimachine] Re: Research needed - Boat propulsion

                          a couple of links that may be of help-
                          http://robnoxious.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/building-plywood-pontoons-out-of-scrap/
                          http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/post-tsunami/10m-thai-long-tail-8144.html
                          and just for fun=
                          http://www.john-tom.com/Klong16/LongTail.html


                          ------------------------------------

                          -------------
                          We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                          Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
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                        • Charles Mitchard
                          did you see the pitch on those racing props?
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 26, 2013
                            did you see the pitch on those racing props?
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