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Re: [multimachine] Time for a new project?

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  • Pat Delany
    The East Texas way of broaching keyways is to use a lathe boring bar. Pat ________________________________ From: David G. LeVine To:
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 24, 2013
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      The East Texas way of broaching keyways is to use a lathe boring bar.
      Pat


      From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 4:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Time for a new project?

       
      On 03/24/2013 09:55 AM, Shannon DeWolfe wrote:
      Suppose a gent has built both the MultiMachine and the concrete lathe. 
      He now has a reasonable start on a shop for oil field or truck or farm 
      implement repair, or what have you. But, he does not have some very 
      important tools necessary to support the turning tools.
      
      A tool grinder.
      Work holding; vises, dogs, clamps, jigs, and so forth.
      Measuring and setup tools.
      A heavy press.
      A means to broach key ways.
      An air compressor.
      Power generation and distribution.
      Lubrication, cleaning, and cooling fluids.
      A powered saw.
      A powered drill press.
      A cutting torch and a welder.
      An oven or furnace for annealing, heat treating, and case hardening.

      Let's start with easy and useful.

      Tool grinder:  Easy, useful, but needs power.  Also common in many places (used for knives) and a flat stone can GENERALLY be substituted.

      Work holding:  Not enough common stuff or all too common.  Document it and move on.

      Measuring and setup tools:  Not a good use of our time.

      A heavy press:  Define heavy, but a VERY good use of our time.  A 6 ton press is pretty simple, it scales nicely.  Once you get above 20 tons, more engineering becomes valuable.  I have built a few 6-10 ton presses, all were a success, all were simple, all required a jack of some sort.

      A means to broach keyways:  Either broaches (expensive!) or a slotter attachment to the MM.  Broaches almost mandate the press.

      Air compressor:  How big?  A V-6 will do a good job, but may be too big and expensive to run for 30 CF/day.

      Power distribution and generation:  Not really a good choice since local needs and regulations become a big issue.

      Lubrication, cutting and cleaning fluids:  A good idea, but well documented on the web.

      A powered saw:  For which medium, what size?

      A powered drill press:  What kind of power, what size?

      A cutting torch:  Unless we can figure out how to make the gasses, a non-starter.

      A welder:  What kind?  MIG, TIG, etc. are too high tech for many environments.  Absent power, any electrical welder is not good.  A better choice might be to describe fluxes, brazing is simple in a forge.  Perhaps a forge would be a good project.

      An oven or furnace for...:  Make the forge and use it to heat the oven, or we get the same "compressed gasses" and "electricity" for the power.

      My suggestion for the next project is to pick one problem and focus on 
      the most cost effective means of solving that problem. Say for instance 
      we choose to focus on a heavy press. What form does it take? Do we use a 
      big screw, or hydraulics or a combination? How do you build the frame? 
      How heavy does it need to be so the machine will not bend or break?

      Okay, I can see this as a good target.  Some initial questions:
      • What kind:  An arbor press up to a few tons is pretty simple, a hydraulic press can be simple, but there are MANY types, a screw press can be really easy, a ratchet press (look at an American car from the 1960s and the bumper jack looks pretty good for up to 2 tons) is often pretty simple.  While I prefer hydraulic presses made with bottle jacks, they are not the only choice. 
      • Size:  I would guess something in the 2-20 ton range would be a good choice.  I would plan on a design which will allow for a choice of actuators.
      • Frame and supports:  Making the frame from a car or truck frame is not a bad way to go.  Bed frames are too light.  Having a table can be useful, being able to put stuff through the support is useful.  Making a metal bending press is worthwhile, 1/4" is not easy to bend correctly without it.  Making a punch can be valuable for making holes in steel.
      • Any machine can be bent or broken.  I have seen reports of 300 Ton punch presses with cracked frames.  Unless we want to build a 10 ton (weight) press good for 1 ton out of forged steel, someone will figure out a way to break it.  But if we look at HF's offerings, we can see what the minimal press needs are, simply use 1/2 of the force HF says it is good for, and put some kind of gauge on it to prevent over enthusiastic use.
      Personally, I would vote for the big air compressor or the big press.
      Dave  8{)
      --


      "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

      Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.


    • David G. LeVine
      ... Which is what a slotter actually does. A slotter is a shaper for inside out slots. Grind the tool properly and it works very well. A lever actuated
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 24, 2013
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        On 03/24/2013 06:31 PM, Pat Delany wrote:


        The East Texas way of broaching keyways is to use a lathe boring bar.
        Pat

        Which is what a slotter actually does.  A slotter is a shaper for "inside out" slots.  Grind the tool properly and it works very well.

        A lever actuated tailstock and a boring head is much faster than a lathe slide and may be a cheap alternative.

        The big tradeoff is time vs. capital investment.

        Dave  8{)

        --


        "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

        Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
      • David G. LeVine
        ... On the other hand, this means that broaching can be eliminated from the list. Dave 8{) -- / Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 24, 2013
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          On 03/24/2013 06:31 PM, Pat Delany wrote:


          The East Texas way of broaching keyways is to use a lathe boring bar.
          Pat

          On the other hand, this means that broaching can be eliminated from the list.

          Dave  8{)

          --


          "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

          Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
        • pokerbacken
          As for toolgrinder, I am working with a simple threadlepowered one. I plan on utilizing anglegrinder wheels, they are cheap and can take quite a bit of abuse
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 25, 2013
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            As for toolgrinder, I am working with a simple threadlepowered one.
            I plan on utilizing anglegrinder wheels, they are cheap and can take quite a bit of abuse without breaking.

            sadly progress just now is non existent, main reason is that my workshop is now under 1.5m of snow...

            I am aware that treadle power is not perfect but a basic grindingwheel can, with a few simple jigs, grind both drillbits, lathebits and other tools for not much money and little effort.
            when building this I actually use mainly wood and basic techniques and simple tools.
            I made the flywheel out of a log section axle was a piece of waterpipe and so on, the treadle frame was some leftover wood held together with wedged dowels or wedged mortice-tennon...
          • Shannon DeWolfe
            Treadle powered tools can be an important part of a shop operating on a shoestring budget. Regards, Mr. Shannon DeWolfe --I ve taken to using Mr. because my
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 25, 2013
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              Treadle powered tools can be an important part of a shop operating on a
              shoestring budget.

              Regards,

              Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
              --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 57 year old fat man.

              On 3/25/2013 12:41 PM, pokerbacken wrote:
              > I am aware that treadle power is not perfect
            • Heer Lorcan
              Hey Guys, love all the stuff that s goes around here. Especially the Doc about how to make a fully funcional multitool-machine. however, if we are beginning to
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 25, 2013
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                Hey Guys,

                love all the stuff that's goes around here.
                Especially the Doc about how to make a fully funcional multitool-machine.
                however, if we are beginning to create a new multitool-machine,
                could we at least incorporate a own free energy module?
                and maybe use RotoVerter principe from Hector Perrez for the tuning of electromotors?
                the primairy could be usefull when working off the grid, the latter to reduce electrical power need?
                don't know just saying :-)

                Lorcan

                On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:38 PM, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
                 

                Treadle powered tools can be an important part of a shop operating on a
                shoestring budget.



                Regards,

                Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 57 year old fat man.

                On 3/25/2013 12:41 PM, pokerbacken wrote:
                > I am aware that treadle power is not perfect




                --
                ShinSham
                DTL Heer Lorcan
              • umashankar
                in india, even today, you get knife sharpners who lug around a frame mounted, modified cycle wheel (with the tyre removed). they go round house to house,
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 25, 2013
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                  in india, even today, you get knife sharpners who lug around a frame mounted, modified cycle wheel (with the tyre removed). they go round house to house, sharpening knives and scissors.
                   
                  will try and take a picture and post it to the group.
                   
                  umashankar


                  On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 11:11 PM, pokerbacken <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   

                  As for toolgrinder, I am working with a simple threadlepowered one.
                  I plan on utilizing anglegrinder wheels, they are cheap and can take quite a bit of abuse without breaking.

                  sadly progress just now is non existent, main reason is that my workshop is now under 1.5m of snow...

                  I am aware that treadle power is not perfect but a basic grindingwheel can, with a few simple jigs, grind both drillbits, lathebits and other tools for not much money and little effort.
                  when building this I actually use mainly wood and basic techniques and simple tools.
                  I made the flywheel out of a log section axle was a piece of waterpipe and so on, the treadle frame was some leftover wood held together with wedged dowels or wedged mortice-tennon...


                • Bruce Bellows
                  Up to now the focus of this forum has been to enable people in third world countries to acquire the machinery and the skills to learn and produce mechanical
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 31, 2013
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                    Up to now the focus of this forum has been to enable people in third world countries to acquire the machinery and the skills to learn and produce mechanical parts themselves and to a great extent I feel Pat that with the assistance of other members of the group you have succeeded in that endevour. Having said that I also feel that taking on a CNC project would take this group in a direction 180 degrees from that focus. I don't see that as a bad thing, it is what it is. From my experience of a decade ago in the printing machinery industry many third world economies intentionally shunned printing presses with the automation because they couldn't work on them themselves and outside technicians are very expensive for them to bring in. For much the same reason a CNC project may not be of much interest to them even though the technology level has increased also.

                    As for myself I'm very interested in a CNC project as we are planing to build one for our hobby shop in the coming year. The yahoo group DIY-CNC is also a good group for reference.

                    Bruce Bellows

                    On 3/24/2013 10:55 AM, Pat Delany wrote:  
                    I guess what I am looking for is a way to use steel plate and concrete to build a practical CNC lathe and/or mill frame. 

                    Pat


                    From: teeth_o_the_dragon <charles.dragonteeth@...>
                    To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 7:19 AM
                    Subject: [multimachine] Re: Time for a new project?

                     

                    I usually just Lurk on here, I rarely have time to actually DO anything, but the possibility of converting a simple "multimachine" type tool to CNC is what attracted me in the first place.

                    Look at projects like "RepRap" for some really well documented descriptions of the electronics required. I think they use Arduino, but RaspberryPi should also be able to do the job. and at much less than the $600+ you mention.

                    One day, one day..

                    c

                    >
                    > Could a slow CNC machine be built from our box ways, concrete, engine blocks and small steppers that could be geared down with timing belts?
                    >
                    > Pat
                    >



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