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Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

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  • Alexis ONeill
    Yes, Bruce, my engineers say this is very similar to what we need. They tell me that it would be easy to add a little length, as long s the basic structure
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2013
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      Yes, Bruce, my engineers say this is very similar to what we need. They tell me that it would be easy to add a little length, as long s the basic structure would support 10 tons or so. We have access to CNC machines and could make anything we needed to add, as long as we have the basic.

      Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

      Thanks,
      Alexis



      From: Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...>
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 10:04 AM
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations


      Alexis

      Is this similar to what you are looking for ?

      Bruce





      >



    • David G. LeVine
      ... Alexis, Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you. Dave 8{) -- / Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India,
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2013
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        On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
        Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

        Alexis,

        Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

        Dave  8{)

        --


        "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

        Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
      • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
        Okay Dave, here goes:We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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          Okay Dave, here goes:

          We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

          We don't need a mirror finish, just a nice smooth surface that can be used on the front of equipment used around food. We have the sealer, but we can't seem to polish the sprayed coating. Everyone was complaining about the hardness as the culprit, but it's not. We successfully grind small samples coated with 13% Chrome ss (HRc 35), but we can't use a grinder on a large plate, as the finish is not even and was rejected by the customer. I've found any number of fly cutters and grinders in videos in youtube, but so far the techs here say they won't work. The engineers in England, one of whom has 29 years doing this, says fly cutting is the way to go with the ss coatings, and his samples he sent are beautiful. We just can't figure out HOW to replicate it.

          Since we have to seal the coating after spraying but before machining and again after machining with an FDA approved sealer, we can't contaminate with cooling liquid during the fly cutting, but the English engineers use the described process techniques constantly and turn out beautiful work.

          We just can't figure it out, and we must. All this type of work also goes to the US right now, and we need to be able to do it here. How can I demonstrate to the young students here that studying science and using technology is the answer to bringing their country into the modern age if we can't even figure out how to do this simple thing? We really are going nuts over this problem.

          Does anyone have any suggestion?

          Thanks once again for your input.

          Alexis

          Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

          From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
          Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:11:17 -0500
          To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
          ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

           

          On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
          Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

          Alexis,

          Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

          Dave  8{)

          --


          "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

          Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
        • Theodore Hahn
          Dear Dr O Niel, Please cheek out Hahn & Klob in germany , they use winter,  grind , buff , polish Warmly, Theodore Hahn ________________________________ From:
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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            Dear Dr O'Niel, Please cheek out Hahn & Klob in germany , they use winter,  grind , buff , polish
            Warmly, Theodore Hahn


            From: Dr. Alexis O'Neill <alexiso_nl@...>
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 9:16 AM
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

             
            Okay Dave, here goes:

            We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

            We don't need a mirror finish, just a nice smooth surface that can be used on the front of equipment used around food. We have the sealer, but we can't seem to polish the sprayed coating. Everyone was complaining about the hardness as the culprit, but it's not. We successfully grind small samples coated with 13% Chrome ss (HRc 35), but we can't use a grinder on a large plate, as the finish is not even and was rejected by the customer. I've found any number of fly cutters and grinders in videos in youtube, but so far the techs here say they won't work. The engineers in England, one of whom has 29 years doing this, says fly cutting is the way to go with the ss coatings, and his samples he sent are beautiful. We just can't figure out HOW to replicate it.

            Since we have to seal the coating after spraying but before machining and again after machining with an FDA approved sealer, we can't contaminate with cooling liquid during the fly cutting, but the English engineers use the described process techniques constantly and turn out beautiful work.

            We just can't figure it out, and we must. All this type of work also goes to the US right now, and we need to be able to do it here. How can I demonstrate to the young students here that studying science and using technology is the answer to bringing their country into the modern age if we can't even figure out how to do this simple thing? We really are going nuts over this problem.

            Does anyone have any suggestion?

            Thanks once again for your input.

            Alexis

            Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

            From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
            Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:11:17 -0500
            To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

             
            On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
            Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

            Alexis,

            Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

            Dave  8{)

            --


            "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

            Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.


          • ar0cketman
            Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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              Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel rich. You might also increase your wire feed rate.


              --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Alexis O'Neill" wrote:
              >
              > Okay Dave, here goes:
              >
              > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating... they said it was too hard a finish.
            • David G. LeVine
              ... Hmmm... Okay, let s go back to basics. Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens. If your feed is too slow, you won t be able to machine it, ever.
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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                On 02/03/2013 10:16 AM, Dr. Alexis O'Neill wrote:
                We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                Hmmm...  Okay, let's go back to basics.

                Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens.  If your feed is too slow, you won't be able to machine it, ever.

                If your SFM is too high, stuff burns right up, so generally it is large chip load, no fine cuts and slower than... 

                I can assume this is what you are doing, but if not, don't feel too bad, I have seen a huge number of burned out tools from too light a cut on SS.

                Another well known issue is machine rigidity for exactly the same reasons.  The machine flexes a little (or is a little loose), the bit rides on top of the affected layer and it can't ever get back.

                Some experiments:

                Make a sample, DO NOT MACHINE IT BEFORE THE TESTS!

                Try fly cutting as slow as your machines can go (on the order of 35-70 SFPM, no faster!) and cutting completely through the stainless in one pass.  It will destroy the test piece, don't worry.  Watch the cutter, if it gets hot STOP!  You are running way too fast, cut the RPMs in half, the chips should NEVER turn blue, at worst brown or straw colored.  Eventually you will find a feed and speed which work.  For a 100mm diameter fly cut, I would try 30 RPM or less, I don't know the feed or depth of cut, but I would guess it would be pretty high and the chip load would be pushing the machine's limits.

                You also need to look at tooling, TiAlN coatings (the purple ones) or TiCN or one of the new SilliconNitride/Aluminum Titanium Nitride  coated tools may be a big win in dry cutting.  Read complete details in this Cutting Tool Engineering article.

                Now, take another test sample and prove you can fly cut ALL the stainless off without destroying the tooling.  Once you can do this, try leaving a VERY thin layer of stainless.  My guess is that you will find the ripples will be horrible because the machine is not rigid enough, or the tool will start to burn up.  Slow down and try again.  After a short while it should be obvious that feed and speed are critical and you will probably find a few combos which allows you to cut the coating without getting molten chips.  After that, it is just fine tuning.  Remember, using coolant to find the range which works and then going dry and getting the new parameters is not a bad idea. 

                This chart:


                may be of help.

                You may also find an FDA approved cutting fluid (like soda water) which will transfer heat out of the cut, my best guess would be to find a food grade surfactant (detergent) to use in the water, if only to pull heat out of the cut.  Cool the tool bit and it might just last much longer.

                Does this help at all?

                P.S.  There  is no room or the chart would also be in the FILES area.

                Dave  8{)

                --


                "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

                Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
              • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
                Nope, this is arcsprayed. 200A @ 4.5 bar. 1.6mm wire. All done according to specs. But the problem isn t really the hardness. That s just how it seems, since
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                  Nope, this is arcsprayed. 200A @ 4.5 bar. 1.6mm wire. All done according to specs. But the problem isn't really the hardness. That's just how it seems, since it can't be fly cut without burning up the blades. We're only talking about 81 HRb here. Shouldn't be a problem, but it is.

                  Alexis

                  Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                  From: ar0cketman <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 05:49:35 -0000
                  To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                  ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                   

                  Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel rich. You might also increase your wire feed rate.

                  --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Alexis O'Neill" wrote:
                  >
                  > Okay Dave, here goes:
                  >
                  > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating... they said it was too hard a finish.

                • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
                  Dave, This helps enormously. I think we can try almost all of your suggestions, as the speeds we tried are way above what you ve listed and we didn t do any of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                    Dave,

                    This helps enormously. I think we can try almost all of your suggestions, as the speeds we tried are way above what you've listed and we didn't do any of this. Also, the soda water would be helpful. All we want to do is take off about 200mils or less of the coating to polish it, as the sprayed surface is not very pretty and hard to seal for use around food stuffs.

                    I will get all this ready and we'll try more samples. At least now we have a direction to move in.

                    Thanks very much, we'll make more samples and see what happens.

                    Regards,
                    Alexis


                    Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
                    Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 01:52:24
                    To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                    Reply-To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                    On 02/03/2013 10:16 AM, Dr. Alexis O'Neill wrote:
                    > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a
                    > carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we
                    > can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first
                    > sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has
                    > a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using
                    > a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample,
                    > which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense.
                    > I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers
                    > in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly
                    > cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it
                    > done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has
                    > around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard
                    > a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting
                    > blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square
                    > and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during
                    > cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                    Hmmm... Okay, let's go back to basics.

                    Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens. If your feed is too
                    slow, you won't be able to machine it, ever.

                    If your SFM is too high, stuff burns right up, so generally it is large
                    chip load, no fine cuts and slower than...

                    I can assume this is what you are doing, but if not, don't feel too bad,
                    I have seen a huge number of burned out tools from too light a cut on SS.

                    Another well known issue is machine rigidity for exactly the same
                    reasons. The machine flexes a little (or is a little loose), the bit
                    rides on top of the affected layer and it can't ever get back.

                    Some experiments:

                    Make a sample, DO NOT MACHINE IT BEFORE THE TESTS!

                    Try fly cutting as slow as your machines can go (on the order of 35-70
                    SFPM, no faster!) and cutting completely through the stainless in one
                    pass. It will destroy the test piece, don't worry. Watch the cutter,
                    if it gets hot STOP! You are running way too fast, cut the RPMs in
                    half, the chips should NEVER turn blue, at worst brown or straw
                    colored. Eventually you will find a feed and speed which work. For a
                    100mm diameter fly cut, I would try 30 RPM or less, I don't know the
                    feed or depth of cut, but I would guess it would be pretty high and the
                    chip load would be pushing the machine's limits.

                    You also need to look at tooling, TiAlN coatings (the purple ones) or
                    TiCN or one of the new SilliconNitride/Aluminum Titanium Nitride coated
                    tools may be a big win in dry cutting. Read completedetails in this
                    Cutting Tool Engineering article
                    <http://www.endmill.com/software/Melin%20CTE%20Coating%20Article%202008.pdf>.

                    Now, take another test sample and prove you can fly cut ALL the
                    stainless off without destroying the tooling. Once you can do this, try
                    leaving a VERY thin layer of stainless. My guess is that you will find
                    the ripples will be horrible because the machine is not rigid enough, or
                    the tool will start to burn up. Slow down and try again. After a short
                    while it should be obvious that feed and speed are critical and you will
                    probably find a few combos which allows you to cut the coating without
                    getting molten chips. After that, it is just fine tuning. Remember,
                    using coolant to find the range which works and then going dry and
                    getting the new parameters is not a bad idea.

                    This chart:


                    may be of help.

                    You may also find an FDA approved cutting fluid (like soda water) which
                    will transfer heat out of the cut, my best guess would be to find a food
                    grade surfactant (detergent) to use in the water, if only to pull heat
                    out of the cut. Cool the tool bit and it might just last much longer.

                    Does this help at all?

                    P.S. There is no room or the chart would also be in the FILES area.

                    Dave 8{)

                    --


                    /"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look
                    upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."/

                    Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
                  • pokerbacken
                    Stainless can harden when worked, it can harden hard enough to require carbide to cut and even then wear can be excessive. actually a light cut of 0.01mm can
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                      Stainless can harden when worked, it can harden hard enough to require carbide to cut and even then wear can be excessive.

                      actually a light cut of 0.01mm can be on tools than 1mm deep cut if tool is not extremely sharp and can "lift" the chip from the surface without rubbing the surface.
                      success is dependent on machine and tool is being rigid and "high feed and slow speed".
                      Least bit of squeal and/or vibration and the part is "lost" to workhardening.

                      One of my teachers in school told us to set speed we thought and reduce to half of that and increase feed and depth of cut to 125-150% of what we would use on regular steel.
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