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Large lathe for flame spray operations

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  • Shannon DeWolfe
    Alexis, It occurred to me that I may be over thinking the problem. I had this picture of a conventional lathe in my head. Convention is not necessary. I was
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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      Alexis,

      It occurred to me that I may be over thinking the problem. I had this
      picture of a conventional lathe in my head. Convention is not necessary.

      I was researching flame spraying (there is a lot of information on the
      WWW). I came across a Dutch company who have posted computer generated
      images of lathes they build to support their metal spray equipment. They
      are very simple:

      http://www.fst.nl/products/systems-and-equipment/auxiliary-equipment/component-handling-systems

      Notice that the spray gun is mounted on a rail system mounted parallel
      to the bed of the lathe. The lathe itself is a steel frame structure.

      Your concrete lathe does not need a conventional carriage. It only has
      to support and rotate the work. The headstock and bed can be poured as a
      monolithic structure. The tail stock can be mounted on retractable
      wheels that follow guide rails to keep it from drifting left or right.
      Roll it into position, retract the wheels, adjust to vertical center
      with jack screws, shim and clamp it to the bed.

      For flame spraying operations the "carriage" traverse does not have to
      be locked to rotation speed. The work can be set into rotation and it
      never has to stop from first operation until finished. Mount the
      carriage on a parallel rail system. The carriage should be massive with
      a low center of gravity. It also has to be strong; lots of steel. But
      otherwise, it is simply a "cart" to move the tools parallel to the work.
      Traverse speeds can be determined empirically. A chart can be developed
      for surface speed of the work versus each operation: grit blasting,
      threading, spraying. Carriage motion can be as simple as a variable
      speed winch on each end of the rail.

      Can you see what I am talking about? Will this work?

      Regards,

      --
      Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
      --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 57 year old fat man.
    • Alexis
      Shannon, I looked at the turning systems on this website and downloaded a few images. Let me get all this info processed and translated and see what my guys
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
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        Shannon, I looked at the turning systems on this website and downloaded a few images. Let me get all this info processed and translated and see what my guys think, also the air bearings. I´ll have some concrete replies as soon as I can get everyone in on this, may take a day or so.

        Keep the ideas coming. We can´t go wrong with this kind of input.

        Thanks and regards,
        Alexis


        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe wrote:
        >
        > Alexis,
        >
        > It occurred to me that I may be over thinking the problem. I had this
        > picture of a conventional lathe in my head. Convention is not necessary.
        >
        > I was researching flame spraying (there is a lot of information on the
        > WWW). I came across a Dutch company who have posted computer generated
        > images of lathes they build to support their metal spray equipment. They
        > are very simple:
        >
        > http://www.fst.nl/products/systems-and-equipment/auxiliary-equipment/component-handling-systems
        >
        > Notice that the spray gun is mounted on a rail system mounted parallel
        > to the bed of the lathe. The lathe itself is a steel frame structure.
        >
        > Your concrete lathe does not need a conventional carriage. It only has
        > to support and rotate the work. The headstock and bed can be poured as a
        > monolithic structure. The tail stock can be mounted on retractable
        > wheels that follow guide rails to keep it from drifting left or right.
        > Roll it into position, retract the wheels, adjust to vertical center
        > with jack screws, shim and clamp it to the bed.
        >
        > For flame spraying operations the "carriage" traverse does not have to
        > be locked to rotation speed. The work can be set into rotation and it
        > never has to stop from first operation until finished. Mount the
        > carriage on a parallel rail system. The carriage should be massive with
        > a low center of gravity. It also has to be strong; lots of steel. But
        > otherwise, it is simply a "cart" to move the tools parallel to the work.
        > Traverse speeds can be determined empirically. A chart can be developed
        > for surface speed of the work versus each operation: grit blasting,
        > threading, spraying. Carriage motion can be as simple as a variable
        > speed winch on each end of the rail.
        >
        > Can you see what I am talking about? Will this work?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > --
        > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
        > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 57 year old fat man.
        >
      • Bruce Bellows
        Alexis Is this similar to what you are looking for ? Bruce
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 2, 2013
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          Alexis

          Is this similar to what you are looking for ?

          Bruce





          >

        • Alexis ONeill
          Yes, Bruce, my engineers say this is very similar to what we need. They tell me that it would be easy to add a little length, as long s the basic structure
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 2, 2013
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            Yes, Bruce, my engineers say this is very similar to what we need. They tell me that it would be easy to add a little length, as long s the basic structure would support 10 tons or so. We have access to CNC machines and could make anything we needed to add, as long as we have the basic.

            Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

            Thanks,
            Alexis



            From: Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...>
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2013 10:04 AM
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations


            Alexis

            Is this similar to what you are looking for ?

            Bruce





            >



          • David G. LeVine
            ... Alexis, Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you. Dave 8{) -- / Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India,
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 2, 2013
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              On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
              Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

              Alexis,

              Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

              Dave  8{)

              --


              "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

              Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
            • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
              Okay Dave, here goes:We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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                Okay Dave, here goes:

                We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                We don't need a mirror finish, just a nice smooth surface that can be used on the front of equipment used around food. We have the sealer, but we can't seem to polish the sprayed coating. Everyone was complaining about the hardness as the culprit, but it's not. We successfully grind small samples coated with 13% Chrome ss (HRc 35), but we can't use a grinder on a large plate, as the finish is not even and was rejected by the customer. I've found any number of fly cutters and grinders in videos in youtube, but so far the techs here say they won't work. The engineers in England, one of whom has 29 years doing this, says fly cutting is the way to go with the ss coatings, and his samples he sent are beautiful. We just can't figure out HOW to replicate it.

                Since we have to seal the coating after spraying but before machining and again after machining with an FDA approved sealer, we can't contaminate with cooling liquid during the fly cutting, but the English engineers use the described process techniques constantly and turn out beautiful work.

                We just can't figure it out, and we must. All this type of work also goes to the US right now, and we need to be able to do it here. How can I demonstrate to the young students here that studying science and using technology is the answer to bringing their country into the modern age if we can't even figure out how to do this simple thing? We really are going nuts over this problem.

                Does anyone have any suggestion?

                Thanks once again for your input.

                Alexis

                Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
                Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:11:17 -0500
                To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                 

                On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
                Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

                Alexis,

                Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

                Dave  8{)

                --


                "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

                Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
              • Theodore Hahn
                Dear Dr O Niel, Please cheek out Hahn & Klob in germany , they use winter,  grind , buff , polish Warmly, Theodore Hahn ________________________________ From:
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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                  Dear Dr O'Niel, Please cheek out Hahn & Klob in germany , they use winter,  grind , buff , polish
                  Warmly, Theodore Hahn


                  From: Dr. Alexis O'Neill <alexiso_nl@...>
                  To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2013 9:16 AM
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                   
                  Okay Dave, here goes:

                  We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                  We don't need a mirror finish, just a nice smooth surface that can be used on the front of equipment used around food. We have the sealer, but we can't seem to polish the sprayed coating. Everyone was complaining about the hardness as the culprit, but it's not. We successfully grind small samples coated with 13% Chrome ss (HRc 35), but we can't use a grinder on a large plate, as the finish is not even and was rejected by the customer. I've found any number of fly cutters and grinders in videos in youtube, but so far the techs here say they won't work. The engineers in England, one of whom has 29 years doing this, says fly cutting is the way to go with the ss coatings, and his samples he sent are beautiful. We just can't figure out HOW to replicate it.

                  Since we have to seal the coating after spraying but before machining and again after machining with an FDA approved sealer, we can't contaminate with cooling liquid during the fly cutting, but the English engineers use the described process techniques constantly and turn out beautiful work.

                  We just can't figure it out, and we must. All this type of work also goes to the US right now, and we need to be able to do it here. How can I demonstrate to the young students here that studying science and using technology is the answer to bringing their country into the modern age if we can't even figure out how to do this simple thing? We really are going nuts over this problem.

                  Does anyone have any suggestion?

                  Thanks once again for your input.

                  Alexis

                  Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                  From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
                  Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:11:17 -0500
                  To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                  ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                   
                  On 02/02/2013 11:40 AM, Alexis ONeill wrote:
                  Sorry I´ve been neglecting the forum, we have a surface machining issue that we can´t figure out and it´s driving us all crazy, but you´ve got our basic need here.

                  Alexis,

                  Talk to us, we have a diverse group that might just have an answer for you.

                  Dave  8{)

                  --


                  "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

                  Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.


                • ar0cketman
                  Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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                    Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel rich. You might also increase your wire feed rate.


                    --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Alexis O'Neill" wrote:
                    >
                    > Okay Dave, here goes:
                    >
                    > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating... they said it was too hard a finish.
                  • David G. LeVine
                    ... Hmmm... Okay, let s go back to basics. Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens. If your feed is too slow, you won t be able to machine it, ever.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 3, 2013
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                      On 02/03/2013 10:16 AM, Dr. Alexis O'Neill wrote:
                      We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample, which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense. I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                      Hmmm...  Okay, let's go back to basics.

                      Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens.  If your feed is too slow, you won't be able to machine it, ever.

                      If your SFM is too high, stuff burns right up, so generally it is large chip load, no fine cuts and slower than... 

                      I can assume this is what you are doing, but if not, don't feel too bad, I have seen a huge number of burned out tools from too light a cut on SS.

                      Another well known issue is machine rigidity for exactly the same reasons.  The machine flexes a little (or is a little loose), the bit rides on top of the affected layer and it can't ever get back.

                      Some experiments:

                      Make a sample, DO NOT MACHINE IT BEFORE THE TESTS!

                      Try fly cutting as slow as your machines can go (on the order of 35-70 SFPM, no faster!) and cutting completely through the stainless in one pass.  It will destroy the test piece, don't worry.  Watch the cutter, if it gets hot STOP!  You are running way too fast, cut the RPMs in half, the chips should NEVER turn blue, at worst brown or straw colored.  Eventually you will find a feed and speed which work.  For a 100mm diameter fly cut, I would try 30 RPM or less, I don't know the feed or depth of cut, but I would guess it would be pretty high and the chip load would be pushing the machine's limits.

                      You also need to look at tooling, TiAlN coatings (the purple ones) or TiCN or one of the new SilliconNitride/Aluminum Titanium Nitride  coated tools may be a big win in dry cutting.  Read complete details in this Cutting Tool Engineering article.

                      Now, take another test sample and prove you can fly cut ALL the stainless off without destroying the tooling.  Once you can do this, try leaving a VERY thin layer of stainless.  My guess is that you will find the ripples will be horrible because the machine is not rigid enough, or the tool will start to burn up.  Slow down and try again.  After a short while it should be obvious that feed and speed are critical and you will probably find a few combos which allows you to cut the coating without getting molten chips.  After that, it is just fine tuning.  Remember, using coolant to find the range which works and then going dry and getting the new parameters is not a bad idea. 

                      This chart:


                      may be of help.

                      You may also find an FDA approved cutting fluid (like soda water) which will transfer heat out of the cut, my best guess would be to find a food grade surfactant (detergent) to use in the water, if only to pull heat out of the cut.  Cool the tool bit and it might just last much longer.

                      Does this help at all?

                      P.S.  There  is no room or the chart would also be in the FILES area.

                      Dave  8{)

                      --


                      "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

                      Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
                    • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
                      Nope, this is arcsprayed. 200A @ 4.5 bar. 1.6mm wire. All done according to specs. But the problem isn t really the hardness. That s just how it seems, since
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                        Nope, this is arcsprayed. 200A @ 4.5 bar. 1.6mm wire. All done according to specs. But the problem isn't really the hardness. That's just how it seems, since it can't be fly cut without burning up the blades. We're only talking about 81 HRb here. Shouldn't be a problem, but it is.

                        Alexis

                        Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                        From: ar0cketman <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 05:49:35 -0000
                        To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                        ReplyTo: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                         

                        Your thermal sprayed stainless is too hard? If you are flame spraying, check your Fuel/Oxygen ratio, you may be making a carbide if it is running too fuel rich. You might also increase your wire feed rate.

                        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Alexis O'Neill" wrote:
                        >
                        > Okay Dave, here goes:
                        >
                        > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating... they said it was too hard a finish.

                      • Dr. Alexis O'Neill
                        Dave, This helps enormously. I think we can try almost all of your suggestions, as the speeds we tried are way above what you ve listed and we didn t do any of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                          Dave,

                          This helps enormously. I think we can try almost all of your suggestions, as the speeds we tried are way above what you've listed and we didn't do any of this. Also, the soda water would be helpful. All we want to do is take off about 200mils or less of the coating to polish it, as the sprayed surface is not very pretty and hard to seal for use around food stuffs.

                          I will get all this ready and we'll try more samples. At least now we have a direction to move in.

                          Thanks very much, we'll make more samples and see what happens.

                          Regards,
                          Alexis


                          Enviado desde mi oficina móvil BlackBerry® de Telcel

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...>
                          Sender: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 01:52:24
                          To: <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                          Reply-To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Large lathe for flame spray operations

                          On 02/03/2013 10:16 AM, Dr. Alexis O'Neill wrote:
                          > We need to finish a 316 stainless steel thermal sprayed coating on a
                          > carbon steel plate, well, several, but this is the sample, and we
                          > can't seem to get the job done. We've done everything up to the first
                          > sealing correctly, the technicians think, and this type of coating has
                          > a hardness of 81 HRb only, not very hard. Yet the machine shop, using
                          > a fly cutter, burned up 7 cutting blades trying to finish the sample,
                          > which was only 63cm by 30cm on 1" carbon steel, which makes no sense.
                          > I have samples on plates and cylinders sent to me from our suppliers
                          > in England and Asia and I have been assured by everyone there that fly
                          > cutting the stainless steel is no problem, but we can't seem to get it
                          > done. We have taken samples to 2 machine shops here, one of which has
                          > around 15 CNCs and plenty of experience, but they said it was too hard
                          > a finish. One of my engineers brought me one of the small cutting
                          > blades, I don't know what to call them in English, about 3/4 " square
                          > and 3/8" thick, and it indeed was blacken with the heat during
                          > cutting. The edge was smoothed completely. They ruined 7.

                          Hmmm... Okay, let's go back to basics.

                          Stainless is NASTY to machine, it work hardens. If your feed is too
                          slow, you won't be able to machine it, ever.

                          If your SFM is too high, stuff burns right up, so generally it is large
                          chip load, no fine cuts and slower than...

                          I can assume this is what you are doing, but if not, don't feel too bad,
                          I have seen a huge number of burned out tools from too light a cut on SS.

                          Another well known issue is machine rigidity for exactly the same
                          reasons. The machine flexes a little (or is a little loose), the bit
                          rides on top of the affected layer and it can't ever get back.

                          Some experiments:

                          Make a sample, DO NOT MACHINE IT BEFORE THE TESTS!

                          Try fly cutting as slow as your machines can go (on the order of 35-70
                          SFPM, no faster!) and cutting completely through the stainless in one
                          pass. It will destroy the test piece, don't worry. Watch the cutter,
                          if it gets hot STOP! You are running way too fast, cut the RPMs in
                          half, the chips should NEVER turn blue, at worst brown or straw
                          colored. Eventually you will find a feed and speed which work. For a
                          100mm diameter fly cut, I would try 30 RPM or less, I don't know the
                          feed or depth of cut, but I would guess it would be pretty high and the
                          chip load would be pushing the machine's limits.

                          You also need to look at tooling, TiAlN coatings (the purple ones) or
                          TiCN or one of the new SilliconNitride/Aluminum Titanium Nitride coated
                          tools may be a big win in dry cutting. Read completedetails in this
                          Cutting Tool Engineering article
                          <http://www.endmill.com/software/Melin%20CTE%20Coating%20Article%202008.pdf>.

                          Now, take another test sample and prove you can fly cut ALL the
                          stainless off without destroying the tooling. Once you can do this, try
                          leaving a VERY thin layer of stainless. My guess is that you will find
                          the ripples will be horrible because the machine is not rigid enough, or
                          the tool will start to burn up. Slow down and try again. After a short
                          while it should be obvious that feed and speed are critical and you will
                          probably find a few combos which allows you to cut the coating without
                          getting molten chips. After that, it is just fine tuning. Remember,
                          using coolant to find the range which works and then going dry and
                          getting the new parameters is not a bad idea.

                          This chart:


                          may be of help.

                          You may also find an FDA approved cutting fluid (like soda water) which
                          will transfer heat out of the cut, my best guess would be to find a food
                          grade surfactant (detergent) to use in the water, if only to pull heat
                          out of the cut. Cool the tool bit and it might just last much longer.

                          Does this help at all?

                          P.S. There is no room or the chart would also be in the FILES area.

                          Dave 8{)

                          --


                          /"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look
                          upon the Act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."/

                          Mohandus Ghandi, An Autobiography, Page 446.
                        • pokerbacken
                          Stainless can harden when worked, it can harden hard enough to require carbide to cut and even then wear can be excessive. actually a light cut of 0.01mm can
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 4, 2013
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                            Stainless can harden when worked, it can harden hard enough to require carbide to cut and even then wear can be excessive.

                            actually a light cut of 0.01mm can be on tools than 1mm deep cut if tool is not extremely sharp and can "lift" the chip from the surface without rubbing the surface.
                            success is dependent on machine and tool is being rigid and "high feed and slow speed".
                            Least bit of squeal and/or vibration and the part is "lost" to workhardening.

                            One of my teachers in school told us to set speed we thought and reduce to half of that and increase feed and depth of cut to 125-150% of what we would use on regular steel.
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