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Re: [multimachine] Re: Syria

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  • StoneTool
    Pat: We have yet to learn that there is no victory in this day and age, and nothing will change that. The price of victory is eternal shame because of the
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 8, 2012
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      Pat:
      We have yet to learn that there is no "victory" in this day and age, and
      nothing will change that. The price of "victory" is eternal shame
      because of the barbarity, the murder, genocide, and destruction required
      to achieve it. That's NOT victory.... True "victory" does not degrade
      the victor. Nobody prior to the Iraq war asked the question "So we
      defeat Saddam’s army........ That's not the same as victory.... what
      then??" You can defeat an army, but you cannot defeat a people on their
      home ground without becoming a barbarian. You have to "win" the people,
      not "defeat" them.
      To stay home is as you say, the wisest course. Much as I dislike about
      the current administration, it has shown some wisdom in this respect.
      Will we learn... ever??

      Howard

      On 12/08/2012 07:32 AM, Pat wrote:
      > That is a very good point. My personal foreign policy evolves from the IED. If it is possible to destroy a million dollar vehicle with a gallon bottle of fertilizer then then we should be nice to as many people as we can (and probably stay home). Have we (or anybody) actually won a war since WW2?
      >
      > My personal philosophy is that I don't believe in anything that has a name in upper case. Naming something leads to making an institution that often exists only to provide for it's own employees.
      >
      > Notice that the concrete lathe project does not actually have a name!
      >
      > Pat
      >
      > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Damian Gunjak<damian.gunjak@...> wrote:
      >> While i am sure that the intentions are noble i dont thinks thats
      >> conversation we should be engaged in that same know how could be used to
      >> kill our service members oversees. You dont know who is reading this board
      >> and how the know how will spread once its shared
      >> **
      >>
      >>
      >> Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria.
      >> I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to
      >> fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people.
      >>
      >> Pat
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > -------------
      > We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/
      >
      > Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
      > -------------Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Robert Goode
      While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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        While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

        From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
        To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
         
        Good point Ian
        I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

        Pat

        From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
        To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
         
        Hi HB,

        You make a very good point.

        For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

        The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

        It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

        It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

        All the best,
        Ian
        On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
         
        It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
        Anything can be used by both sides.
         
         
        From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
        Subject: [multimachine] Syria
         
        Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat
      • Pat Delany
        My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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          My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery while I went to school. I often carried a .45 on my half block walk from the electric shop to the plant.

          Pat


          From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
          To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:08 PM
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

           
          While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

          From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
          To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
           
          Good point Ian
          I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

          Pat

          From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
          To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
           
          Hi HB,

          You make a very good point.

          For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

          The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

          It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

          It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

          All the best,
          Ian
          On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
           
          It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
          Anything can be used by both sides.
           
           
          From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
          Subject: [multimachine] Syria
           
          Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat


        • Robert Goode
          What about Islamic Jihad? Sent from my iPhone
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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            What about Islamic Jihad?

            Sent from my iPhone

            On Dec 9, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:

             

            My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery while I went to school. I often carried a .45 on my half block walk from the electric shop to the plant.

            Pat


            From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
            To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:08 PM
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

             
            While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

            From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
            To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
             
            Good point Ian
            I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

            Pat

            From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
            To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
             
            Hi HB,

            You make a very good point.

            For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

            The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

            It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

            It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

            All the best,
            Ian
            On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
             
            It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
            Anything can be used by both sides.
             
             
            From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
            Subject: [multimachine] Syria
             
            Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat


          • Pat Delany
            I don t feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it s long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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              I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

              Pat


              From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
              To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:24 PM
              Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

               
              What about Islamic Jihad?

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Dec 9, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:

               
              My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery while I went to school. I often carried a .45 on my half block walk from the electric shop to the plant.

              Pat


              From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
              To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:08 PM
              Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

               
              While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

              From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
              To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
              Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
               
              Good point Ian
              I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

              Pat

              From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
              To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
               
              Hi HB,

              You make a very good point.

              For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

              The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

              It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

              It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

              All the best,
              Ian
              On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
               
              It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
              Anything can be used by both sides.
               
               
              From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
              To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
              Subject: [multimachine] Syria
               
              Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat




            • Damian Gunjak
              Urban warfare is extremly expensive
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                Urban warfare is extremly expensive


                On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:
                 

                I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                Pat

                Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

                 
                What about Islamic Jihad?

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Dec 9, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:

                 
                My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery while I went to school. I often carried a .45 on my half block walk from the electric shop to the plant.

                Pat


                From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
                To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

                 
                While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

                From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
                To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
                Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
                 
                Good point Ian
                I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

                Pat

                From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
                To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
                 
                Hi HB,

                You make a very good point.

                For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

                The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

                It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

                It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

                All the best,
                Ian
                On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
                 
                It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
                Anything can be used by both sides.
                 
                 
                From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
                To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
                Subject: [multimachine] Syria
                 
                Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat





              • Nick Andrews
                Not so much if you use neutron devices before going in... In New Orleans, I can t believe the police went door-to-door asking for people to turn over their
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                  Not so much if you use neutron devices before going in...

                  In New Orleans, I can't believe the police went door-to-door asking for people to turn over their guns and such.  The mayor AND chief of police were completely incompetent.


                  On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Damian Gunjak <damian.gunjak@...> wrote:
                   

                  Urban warfare is extremly expensive



                  On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:
                   

                  I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                  Pat

                  Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:24 PM
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

                   
                  What about Islamic Jihad?

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On Dec 9, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Pat Delany <rigmatch@...> wrote:

                   
                  My idea is to try not to make people mad at us enough to want to nuke us. I know all about New Orleans, I was a midnight shift electrician at Jackson Brewery while I went to school. I often carried a .45 on my half block walk from the electric shop to the plant.

                  Pat


                  From: Robert Goode <robertgoode83@...>
                  To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria

                   
                  While I appreciate the dabate about America involving herself in foriegn conflicts the genie is out of the bottle in the Middle East. One nuclear device detonated in this country will be just as devastating as if many bombs were dropped. If our power grid is compromised the best it will be is martial law to the worst which will be each man for  himself. The press kept a lid on how bad things got in New Orleans after the hurricanes. Robert Goode

                  From: Pat Delany <rigmatch@...>
                  To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:45 AM
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
                   
                  Good point Ian
                  I still think the IED is a game changer. Maybe armies should evolve into special forces that use IEDs to isolate cities from the countrysides.

                  Pat

                  From: Ian 1 <ian_new@...>
                  To: "multimachine@yahoogroups.com" <multimachine@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 8:37 AM
                  Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
                   
                  Hi HB,

                  You make a very good point.

                  For a decade from 1969 the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland were the largest terrorist organisation operating in Europe. They murdered over 1800 people in the UK.

                  The major source of funds for the IRA was Libya (Col. Gadaffi was an enthusiastic supporter).  The second largest source was the American people, donating to a fake charity called Noraid.

                  It took the 9/11 event to make the USA understand the true implication of terrorism and take the issue seriously.

                  It will be interesting to see what sort of regime replaces the current Syrian authority should it fall.

                  All the best,
                  Ian
                  On 8 Dec 2012, at 03:47, HB <scfpigs@...> wrote:
                   
                  It would be nice to have a sure way to know who the good guys are when we help people on the internet.
                  Anything can be used by both sides.
                   
                   
                  From: Pat <rigmatch@...>
                  To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 6:32 PM
                  Subject: [multimachine] Syria
                   
                  Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria. I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people. Pat








                  --
                  Nick A

                  "You know what I wish?  I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about it..."  Rorschach, 1975

                  "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                  "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                  "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
                • UnmercifulOne
                  I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other groups that are setup to
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                    I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other groups that are setup to discuss them.
                  • Pierre Coueffin
                    UnmercifulOne, I would normally express the same sentiment, except that the MM is as much a social and therefore political project as it is a technical one.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                      UnmercifulOne, I would normally express the same sentiment, except that the MM is as much a social and therefore political project as it is a technical one.  If it were not for Pat's concern over the conditions in certain destitute portions of the world, the project would not exist at all.  I've come to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of discussion about making inexpensive machines from engine blocks and concrete, that means that I will also be part of some discussions about bypassing corrupt NGO's and operating machinery where there is no electricity, and sometimes doing it in an area where the local government will confiscate and destroy any machines they find since they did not get paid a bribe for their import...

                      On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:48 PM, UnmercifulOne <symmetry_flow@...> wrote:
                      I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other groups that are setup to discuss them.
                    • Pat Delany
                      Quite right Pierre, I have put 12 years of daily work into this. If it was just a machine site I would have gotten bored long ago.I think that most of my
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                        Quite right Pierre,
                        I have put 12 years of daily work into this. If it was just a machine site I would have gotten bored long ago.I think that most of my efforts amount to little but there are a few concrete lathe features that are important to me at least.

                        pat


                        From: Pierre Coueffin <pcoueffin@...>
                        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 4:53 PM
                        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Syria

                         
                        UnmercifulOne, I would normally express the same sentiment, except that the MM is as much a social and therefore political project as it is a technical one.  If it were not for Pat's concern over the conditions in certain destitute portions of the world, the project would not exist at all.  I've come to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of discussion about making inexpensive machines from engine blocks and concrete, that means that I will also be part of some discussions about bypassing corrupt NGO's and operating machinery where there is no electricity, and sometimes doing it in an area where the local government will confiscate and destroy any machines they find since they did not get paid a bribe for their import...

                        On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:48 PM, UnmercifulOne <symmetry_flow@...> wrote:
                        I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other groups that are setup to discuss them.


                      • UnmercifulOne
                        I do agree that this group must, by definition, be political as well as social. However, that being said, it is one thing to share ideas on how to circumvent
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                          I do agree that this group must, by definition, be political as well as social. However, that being said, it is one thing to share ideas on how to circumvent NGOs (or even corrupt GOs) that block the spread of this technology so that it can be used to improve the lives of people; and quite another to discuss it's use for the construction of IEDs. People will use this technology as they see fit, for both good and evil purposes. We should not be engaged in the showing to them the way(s) that make(s) evil easier to accomplish.

                          I might also point out that good vs not-good is really only a matter of perspective. Neither side in the Syrian conflict would have any love-loss for the west, especially for the UK or the USA, regardless of which side won.

                          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Pierre Coueffin wrote:
                          >
                          > UnmercifulOne, I would normally express the same sentiment, except
                          > that the MM is as much a social and therefore political project as
                          > it is a technical one. If it were not for Pat's concern over the
                          > conditions in certain destitute portions of the world, the project
                          > would not exist at all. I've come to accept that if I want to reap
                          > the benefits of discussion about making inexpensive machines from
                          > engine blocks and concrete, that means that I will also be part of
                          > some discussions about bypassing corrupt NGO's and operating
                          > machinery where there is no electricity, and sometimes doing it in
                          > an area where the local government will confiscate and destroy any
                          > machines they find since they did not get paid a bribe for their
                          > import...
                          >
                          > >
                          > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:48 PM, UnmercifulOne wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this
                          > > group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other
                          > > groups that are setup to discuss them.
                          > >
                          >
                        • tom wright
                          You re on the right track, Pat. People with full stomachs seldom want to fight; and as Momma used to say The devil finds work for idle hands . To:
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                            You're on the right track, Pat.  People with full stomachs seldom want to fight; and as Momma used to say "The devil finds work for idle hands".
                             

                            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                            From: rigmatch@...
                            Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 17:02:44 -0800
                            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Syria

                             
                            Quite right Pierre,
                            I have put 12 years of daily work into this. If it was just a machine site I would have gotten bored long ago.I think that most of my efforts amount to little but there are a few concrete lathe features that are important to me at least.

                            pat


                            From: Pierre Coueffin <pcoueffin@...>
                            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 4:53 PM
                            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: Syria

                             
                            UnmercifulOne, I would normally express the same sentiment, except that the MM is as much a social and therefore political project as it is a technical one.  If it were not for Pat's concern over the conditions in certain destitute portions of the world, the project would not exist at all.  I've come to accept that if I want to reap the benefits of discussion about making inexpensive machines from engine blocks and concrete, that means that I will also be part of some discussions about bypassing corrupt NGO's and operating machinery where there is no electricity, and sometimes doing it in an area where the local government will confiscate and destroy any machines they find since they did not get paid a bribe for their import...

                            On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 1:48 PM, UnmercifulOne <symmetry_flow@...> wrote:
                            I would prefer that we limit the scope of our comments in this group to Multi-Machines and leave political discussions to other groups that are setup to discuss them.



                          • David G. LeVine
                            ... Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created. Why would said leader want more jobs to exist? Dave 8{) -- / The
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                              On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                              I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                              Pat

                              Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                              Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                              --

                              "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                              Niccolo Machiavelli

                              NOTE TO ALL:

                              When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                              THANK YOU!
                            • Adam Simmons
                              I haven t been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I m sorry. Last I checked, knowledge hasn t killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                                I haven't been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I'm sorry.

                                Last I checked, knowledge hasn't killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to their end. 

                                I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it.

                                 - Adam


                                On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                 

                                On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                Pat

                                Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                --

                                "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                Niccolo Machiavelli

                                NOTE TO ALL:

                                When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                THANK YOU!


                              • Damian Gunjak
                                I dont think we should be helping devise weapons to al quida affilliated sunni extremist who are engaged in a sectarian conflict with the syrian govt.
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 9, 2012
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                                  I dont think we should be helping devise weapons to al quida affilliated sunni extremist who are engaged in a sectarian conflict with the syrian govt.

                                  On Dec 10, 2012 1:08 AM, "Adam Simmons" <xyrthx@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  I haven't been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I'm sorry.


                                  Last I checked, knowledge hasn't killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to their end. 

                                  I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it.

                                   - Adam


                                  On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                  I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                  Pat

                                  Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                  Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                  --

                                  "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                  Niccolo Machiavelli

                                  NOTE TO ALL:

                                  When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                  THANK YOU!


                                • Damian Gunjak
                                  In related news seems like the syrian rebels are quiet capable of doing just what they need. Here is a self made tank of theirs.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                    In related news seems like the syrian rebels are quiet capable of doing just what they need.   Here is a self made "tank" of theirs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB1BDrFzFY0






                                    On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Damian Gunjak <damian.gunjak@...> wrote:

                                    I dont think we should be helping devise weapons to al quida affilliated sunni extremist who are engaged in a sectarian conflict with the syrian govt.

                                    On Dec 10, 2012 1:08 AM, "Adam Simmons" <xyrthx@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    I haven't been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I'm sorry.


                                    Last I checked, knowledge hasn't killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to their end. 

                                    I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it.

                                     - Adam


                                    On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                    I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                    Pat

                                    Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                    Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                    --

                                    "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                    Niccolo Machiavelli

                                    NOTE TO ALL:

                                    When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                    THANK YOU!



                                  • John Kiely
                                    Hi Pat et al, I am from Ireland and I don t like getting involved in discussions like this, but... In a conflict like this you really have to take a long term
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                      Hi Pat et al,
                                      I am from Ireland and I don't like getting involved in discussions like this, but...
                                      In a conflict like this you really have to take a long term view of what is going to happen.
                                      Syria is a country, and will still be a country long after this conflict ends.
                                      When this conflict ends, people who do not like each other, and who know that the people they live in the same country with, have killed and murdered their relatives in the name of a cause are going to have to learn to get on and rebuild a country that they have to share!
                                      This is where us "outsiders" are going to have to concentrate our efforts.
                                      Adding fuel to a fire that you want to put out "might" not be the way to go.
                                      Some would say one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter at the same time people have a right to a voice and freedom to express it.
                                      A wise man once said in my country, anyone with a solution doesn't understand the problem in the first place.
                                      I was born in 1969 and if I have learned one thing it's that a bullet from a gun is more bitter than an orchard full of lemons.
                                      I would be hesitant to get involved in a conflict so far away from you.
                                      I am living in a country where I have to build bridges not take lives.
                                      Respect and understanding is worth more to these people than all the weapons you could make for them.
                                      I see no harm in teaching anyone in Syria how to build a MultiMachine, sooner or later they are going to need them and believe you me in any conflict like this there are a multitude of people who will supply weapons for free. I doubt very much anyone will have the time to build a multimachine in an environment where they are being currently shelled or shot at. Cement will be at a premium to build shelters from artillery and gunfire.
                                      I doubt anyone could build an effective weapon comparable to a modern day device designed and tested over hundreds of years by expert Gunsmiths.
                                      Your heart I know is in the right place.
                                      I just personally wouldn't agree with your methods as I know in this country they didn't work!
                                      It took many years for people to find that out!
                                       
                                      I don't want to cause any offence to either you or others on this group.
                                      I love the Multimachine, and have taken a lot from this project and I thank you for that.
                                      Forgive me if my opinion offends anyone, as this was not my intention. It is in the end of the day only a point of view.
                                       
                                      Regards to all
                                       
                                      John Kiely (IRL)
                                       

                                      From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
                                      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 5:56 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Syria
                                       
                                      On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                      I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                      Pat
                                      Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist? Dave  8{) <but cynical>
                                      -- "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him." Niccolo Machiavelli
                                      NOTE TO ALL:
                                    • Arthur Nascimento
                                      *Friends,* *I personally think we should not deny knowledge to anyone.* *If that person uses this knowledge for evil, is his problem.* *I m a pacifist, I live
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                        Friends,
                                        I personally think we should not deny knowledge to anyone.
                                        If that person uses this knowledge for evil, is his problem.
                                        I'm a pacifist, I live in a country (Brazil) where there is religious intolerance based extremism. I agree that passes for economic problems, political and social changes that are in solution, but nothing justifies to harass, demoralize, kill a certain group just by thinking the Quere live their own way.
                                        Have we not had our Nero, Hitler etc? Have we not enough? Did anyone learn anything after heating them fizerm for Humanity?

                                        Arthur




                                        2012/12/8 Pat <rigmatch@...>
                                        Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria.
                                        I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people.

                                        Pat



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        -------------
                                        We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                                        Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                                        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
                                        -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

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                                      • Nick Andrews
                                        Same thing here in these USA... ... -- Nick A You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                          Same thing here in these USA...


                                          On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 10:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                           

                                          On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                          I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                          Pat

                                          Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                          Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                          --

                                          "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                          Niccolo Machiavelli

                                          NOTE TO ALL:

                                          When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                          THANK YOU!




                                          --
                                          Nick A

                                          "You know what I wish?  I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about it..."  Rorschach, 1975

                                          "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                                          "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                                          "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
                                        • Nick Andrews
                                          That s for damn sure! Same thing with fireworks. Why should I not be able to light/launch anything I want just because some drunk moron might light them
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                            That's for damn sure!  Same thing with fireworks.  Why should I not be able to light/launch anything I want just because some drunk moron might light them inside their house and cause a fire?  And the false pretense of safety for suggested speed limits, when they are really all about revenue...


                                            On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Adam Simmons <xyrthx@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            I haven't been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I'm sorry.


                                            Last I checked, knowledge hasn't killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to their end. 

                                            I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it.

                                             - Adam


                                            On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                            I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                            Pat

                                            Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                            Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                            --

                                            "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                            Niccolo Machiavelli

                                            NOTE TO ALL:

                                            When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                            THANK YOU!





                                            --
                                            Nick A

                                            "You know what I wish?  I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about it..."  Rorschach, 1975

                                            "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                                            "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                                            "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
                                          • Nick Andrews
                                            No one studies history and learns anything any more. So we are doomed to repeat the failures of others, at least when the uneducated and ignorant as well as
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                              No one studies history and learns anything any more.  So we are doomed to repeat the failures of others, at least when the uneducated and ignorant as well as the just plain old stupid get to vote with no qualifications.  But I digress...  We should try to help those in any part of the world who are intent on trying to better themselves and their living standards through education and work.  That is how my country was successful for many years.  Indeed, it is the only way.


                                              On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Arthur Nascimento <scientia2016@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Friends,
                                              I personally think we should not deny knowledge to anyone.
                                              If that person uses this knowledge for evil, is his problem.
                                              I'm a pacifist, I live in a country (Brazil) where there is religious intolerance based extremism. I agree that passes for economic problems, political and social changes that are in solution, but nothing justifies to harass, demoralize, kill a certain group just by thinking the Quere live their own way.
                                              Have we not had our Nero, Hitler etc? Have we not enough? Did anyone learn anything after heating them fizerm for Humanity?

                                              Arthur




                                              2012/12/8 Pat <rigmatch@...>
                                              Most of you don't know but we have at least several members from Syria.
                                              I think it would be wonderful if MMs were being used to build weapons to fight a guy who could be planning to use nerve gas on his own people.

                                              Pat



                                              ------------------------------------


                                              -------------
                                              We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

                                              Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
                                              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
                                              -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

                                              <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/

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                                                  Individual Email | Traditional

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                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/join
                                                  (Yahoo! ID required)

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                                                  multimachine-digest@yahoogroups.com
                                                  multimachine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

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                                                  multimachine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                              <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





                                              --
                                              Nick A

                                              "You know what I wish?  I wish that all the scum of the world had but a single throat, and I had my hands about it..."  Rorschach, 1975

                                              "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                                              "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                                              "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
                                            • Pierre Coueffin
                                              Are you saying that you wished WWII had ended in a dramatically different manner? Or that the Cold War had been a hot one? Both the Germans and the Russians
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                                Are you saying that you wished WWII had ended in a dramatically different manner?

                                                Or that the Cold War had been a hot one?

                                                Both the Germans and the Russians had nuclear programs.  I'm pretty stoked that that particular race ended the way it did.


                                                On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 9:03 AM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                                                The nuclear genie was one that had best been left in the bottle.
                                              • StoneTool
                                                Adam: You wrote: I m against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it. I agree in principle.............but there are good
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 10, 2012
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                                                  Adam:

                                                      You wrote:    "I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it."

                                                      I agree in principle.............but there are good arguments on the opposite side.   With knowledge must go wisdom, maturity, responsibility.   There is some knowledge that had best never been discovered............  Humanity has an unlimited capacity for irresponsible and destructive use of knowledge.   The nuclear genie was one that had best been left in the bottle.  Mankind is far too close to it's barbarian roots to be trusted with such dangerous and destructive technology.  

                                                      More disturbing yet is the fact that there are those among us who believe that ideas and points of view are dangerous if they diverge from what they see as the "norm", or from their own ideas.  They seem to fear that ideas can wreak havoc, that uniformity of thought and perspective somehow makes us stronger or greater, when in fact it does the opposite.  Those who seek to rein human thought and ideas are stupid and short sighted people who will ultimately lose their power and become irrelevant, and despised by intelligent people.  Censorship in the interest of political or religious "correctness" is absolutely contemptible!

                                                                                                                                                                          Howard

                                                  On 12/09/2012 11:07 PM, Adam Simmons wrote: I haven't been reading this thread, so if this seems off, I'm sorry.

                                                  Last I checked, knowledge hasn't killed anybody. A motivated person will find the means to their end. 

                                                  I'm against the restriction of knowledge based on what somebody *might* do with it.

                                                   - Adam


                                                  On Sun, Dec 9, 2012 at 9:56 PM, David G. LeVine <dlevine@...> wrote:
                                                   
                                                  On 12/09/2012 02:55 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
                                                  I don't feel that anyone has an answer to this. I do feel that our heavy armor with it's long support lines is not a good answer to an enemy with a gallon of fertilizer and a wish to die. (see "sniper" in the current Time magazine)  My personal goal is to empower the artisan and then hope the concrete tool technology can bubble up to  schools and light industry. Increasing the numbers of jobs is my answer to Jihad and really why I do all this. 

                                                  Pat

                                                  Consider that a Jihadist leader will lose power if more jobs are created.  Why would said leader want more jobs to exist?

                                                  Dave  8{) <but cynical>

                                                  --

                                                  "The first method for estimating the intelligence of a ruler is to look at the men he has around him."
                                                  Niccolo Machiavelli

                                                  NOTE TO ALL:

                                                  When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.


                                                  THANK YOU!


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