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Re: [multimachine] Instead of Grout

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  • Adam Simmons
    The tension and shear capabilities of a bolt in grout/epoxy are unfortunately no longer as simple as that chart (at least in California). Hilti & Simpson both
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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      The tension and shear capabilities of a bolt in grout/epoxy are unfortunately no longer as simple as that chart (at least in California).  Hilti & Simpson both have programs that allow you to calculate the restraining ability of bolts in such an instance, typically the steel or the surrounding concrete fail first.

      But what you're looking at isn't the grout strength, but the anchor strength.

      Grouting in pads is taken into the calculations from a compression/tension standpoint, using it to fill voids like this is what 99% of my exposure to grout is used for. 

      On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...> wrote:
       

      Hi Pat

      I've just been so busy at work the past while that I've been lucky to get on this computer twice a week. I have been lurking about but I have to admit that I would need to review a lot of material that has gone on the past few months so as not to sound like a fool when commenting. I'll try and add my 2 cents worth when I can. I see Dave and Shannon have been doing outstanding work on the project.

      Regarding the grouting, the rates of expansion can be different with different brands. When I've used it for setting a machine in place I have already leveled and anchored the machine and the poured grout serves to give the machine uniform support under it's entire base rather than just on the shim packs. Any expansion of the grout then comes out the sides rather than pushing the machine up. Without immediately going and looking at the current drawings (which I will do) what I would recommend is to level, align and bolt the ways into place and then pour the grout under them for uniform support. If epoxy grout were to be used it may adhere to the under side of the ways so well it may be difficult to remove it if required, a test piece would confirm that. I've put epoxy grout in but I don't recall having to remove it.

      I'm glad to see your project still progressing, my lathe is still moving forward but certainly not as quickly as I'd like.

      Regards
      Bruce



      On 6/12/2012 2:25 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
       
      Thanks for your comments on this guys. I think Dave came up with the grout idea first and I don't know where the machine would be without his idea.

      Bruce, we missed you! We need really need your been there, done that experience. Please stick around because big things are about to happen and I need "hands on" people to keep me from making a big fool of myself.

      Pat


      From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Instead of Grout

       
      On 06/11/2012 04:11 PM, true_blue_texican wrote:
      What do you think about "seating" the ways and the spindle cartridge with babbitt instead of nonshrink grout?
      
      That way you could melt the babbitt out to remove the ways if they need replacing.
      Tex,

      Babbitt is poured between 640 and 915 degrees F (roughly.)  See http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/babbitt.htm for details.  Unless I am mistaken, Babbitt expands when heated, hence shrinks when cooling.  Concrete does not like high temperatures, according to http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr6900/ch3-5.pdf,explosive spalling can occur at 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), thus melting out the Babbitt could lead to main casting failures and injuries.

      I would not recommend it without extensive testing.

      Dave  8{)

      --
      "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
      (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)

      NOTE TO ALL:

      When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.

      THANK YOU!



    • Adam Simmons
      I haven t bought lead in years. Being an automotive machinist, i had a lot of shops who owed me favors and it was pretty easy to get the pick of their wheel
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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        I haven't bought lead in years.  Being an automotive machinist, i had a lot of shops who owed me favors and it was pretty easy to get the pick of their wheel weights.  I have 20 or 30 lbs set aside in ingots just in case i get bored someday, it's not much.

        i'm not a huge fan of it, but one of the engineer's i work for uses KIPs, but he too hates seeing just "pounds".

        On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 1:53 AM, Adam Simmons <xyrthx@...> wrote:
        The tension and shear capabilities of a bolt in grout/epoxy are unfortunately no longer as simple as that chart (at least in California).  Hilti & Simpson both have programs that allow you to calculate the restraining ability of bolts in such an instance, typically the steel or the surrounding concrete fail first.

        But what you're looking at isn't the grout strength, but the anchor strength.

        Grouting in pads is taken into the calculations from a compression/tension standpoint, using it to fill voids like this is what 99% of my exposure to grout is used for. 


        On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Pat

        I've just been so busy at work the past while that I've been lucky to get on this computer twice a week. I have been lurking about but I have to admit that I would need to review a lot of material that has gone on the past few months so as not to sound like a fool when commenting. I'll try and add my 2 cents worth when I can. I see Dave and Shannon have been doing outstanding work on the project.

        Regarding the grouting, the rates of expansion can be different with different brands. When I've used it for setting a machine in place I have already leveled and anchored the machine and the poured grout serves to give the machine uniform support under it's entire base rather than just on the shim packs. Any expansion of the grout then comes out the sides rather than pushing the machine up. Without immediately going and looking at the current drawings (which I will do) what I would recommend is to level, align and bolt the ways into place and then pour the grout under them for uniform support. If epoxy grout were to be used it may adhere to the under side of the ways so well it may be difficult to remove it if required, a test piece would confirm that. I've put epoxy grout in but I don't recall having to remove it.

        I'm glad to see your project still progressing, my lathe is still moving forward but certainly not as quickly as I'd like.

        Regards
        Bruce



        On 6/12/2012 2:25 PM, Pat Delany wrote:
         
        Thanks for your comments on this guys. I think Dave came up with the grout idea first and I don't know where the machine would be without his idea.

        Bruce, we missed you! We need really need your been there, done that experience. Please stick around because big things are about to happen and I need "hands on" people to keep me from making a big fool of myself.

        Pat


        From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Instead of Grout

         
        On 06/11/2012 04:11 PM, true_blue_texican wrote:
        What do you think about "seating" the ways and the spindle cartridge with babbitt instead of nonshrink grout?
        
        That way you could melt the babbitt out to remove the ways if they need replacing.
        Tex,

        Babbitt is poured between 640 and 915 degrees F (roughly.)  See http://www.alchemycastings.com/lead-products/babbitt.htm for details.  Unless I am mistaken, Babbitt expands when heated, hence shrinks when cooling.  Concrete does not like high temperatures, according to http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/nuregs/contract/cr6900/ch3-5.pdf,explosive spalling can occur at 300 degrees C (572 degrees F), thus melting out the Babbitt could lead to main casting failures and injuries.

        I would not recommend it without extensive testing.

        Dave  8{)

        --
        "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
        (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)

        NOTE TO ALL:

        When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.

        THANK YOU!




      • David G. LeVine
        ... Actually, I wouldn t be surprised, but I would be surprised if I hadn t had a bit of experience :-[ with it doing just that. The biggest problem I have
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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          On 06/12/2012 07:51 PM, Adam Simmons wrote: Ah, yes I understand now. I was trying to see that if you used grout to fill the annular space what would create temp for it to blow out.

          But the heat is from pouring the metal, which isn't a good solution anyway.

          You'd be surprised what a little vibration and a funnel will do to get grout in tight places.

          Actually, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be surprised if I hadn't had a bit of experience  :-[  with it doing just that.  The biggest problem I have found with the Internet is that many either have problems saying what they mean or understanding what another says.

          Not all us us are able to make another understand what we mean, for example, in another group, I have frequently been accused of skipping important steps.  I have an engineering background, so knowing E=IR and P=EI makes P=I^2R obvious, but some do not understand how that follows.  Hint:  Substitute IR for E in the second equation, multiplication is commutative, I*I = I^2.

          Telling someone that given the current and resistance, finding power dissipation is easy using P=I^2R results in confusion and hassles, yet BOTH of us were right.  He had no idea how to do it, I had no idea that it was at all difficult for DC.

          Dave  8{)
          --
          "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
          (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)

          NOTE TO ALL:

          When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.

          THANK YOU!
        • David G. LeVine
          ... Heavily waxing the ways with mold release like Butcher s Wax resolves that issue. Dave 8{) -- / Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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            On 06/12/2012 11:19 PM, Bruce Bellows wrote:
            If epoxy grout were to be used it may adhere to the under side of the ways so well it may be difficult to remove it if required, a test piece would confirm that. I've put epoxy grout in but I don't recall having to remove it.

            Heavily waxing the ways with mold release like Butcher's Wax resolves that issue.

            Dave  8{)

            --
            "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
            (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)

            NOTE TO ALL:

            When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses and viruses from being propagated.

            THANK YOU!
          • BRIAN GLACKIN
            Since this is a 3rd world lathe of limited life, forget about higher cost grouts. It is likely that the guy building this will be working with a bag of
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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              Since this is a 3rd world lathe of limited life, forget about higher cost grouts.  It is likely that the guy building this will be working with a bag of portland cement powder (~90lb bag), local sand and other aggregates, and water to make the concrete for the main casting. 3rd world contries do not routinely sell bags of "quickcrete".  This bag of portland powder (type I) is likely to be his largest initial investment until he gets to the carraige and spindle.
               
              When it comes time to set the ways, the simplest thing to use will be a create a very dry concrete mix with no aggregate greater than 1/4".  Add enough water to get the portland powder, sand, and aggregate to damp consistency that will just hold shape, then using a small dowel, pack this damp mix in around the ways.  The key is to tamp it thoroughly. 
               
              Once it begins to harden (90-120 minutes or so), the area should be kept moist(wet cloths and plastic) for a number of days.  You can coat the ways to allow the possibility of removing the grout, but then you will also have to coat the inner bore of the concrete casting to prevent the portland grout from merging with the previously cast concrete.  For this later issue, its probably best to have a "key cut" in the casting to allow the grout plug to mechanically lock into place.
            • Adam Simmons
              I agree completely. Fancy grouts are normally more aesthetic than anything else. If possible, i sand blast to roughen up the surface i want the grout to stick
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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                I agree completely.  Fancy grouts are normally more aesthetic than anything else.

                If possible, i sand blast to roughen up the surface i want the grout to stick to, this is an easy way to lock it in a little better.

                 - Adam

                On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:58 AM, BRIAN GLACKIN <glackin.brian@...> wrote:
                 

                Since this is a 3rd world lathe of limited life, forget about higher cost grouts.  It is likely that the guy building this will be working with a bag of portland cement powder (~90lb bag), local sand and other aggregates, and water to make the concrete for the main casting. 3rd world contries do not routinely sell bags of "quickcrete".  This bag of portland powder (type I) is likely to be his largest initial investment until he gets to the carraige and spindle.
                 
                When it comes time to set the ways, the simplest thing to use will be a create a very dry concrete mix with no aggregate greater than 1/4".  Add enough water to get the portland powder, sand, and aggregate to damp consistency that will just hold shape, then using a small dowel, pack this damp mix in around the ways.  The key is to tamp it thoroughly. 
                 
                Once it begins to harden (90-120 minutes or so), the area should be kept moist(wet cloths and plastic) for a number of days.  You can coat the ways to allow the possibility of removing the grout, but then you will also have to coat the inner bore of the concrete casting to prevent the portland grout from merging with the previously cast concrete.  For this later issue, its probably best to have a "key cut" in the casting to allow the grout plug to mechanically lock into place.


              • Pat
                Many thanks Brian, I added all your words to one of the steps and it is already online. Pat
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 13, 2012
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                  Many thanks Brian, I added all your words to one of the steps and it is already online.

                  Pat

                  --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, BRIAN GLACKIN <glackin.brian@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Since this is a 3rd world lathe of limited life, forget about higher cost
                  > grouts. It is likely that the guy building this will be working with a bag
                  > of portland cement powder (~90lb bag), local sand and other aggregates, and
                  > water to make the concrete for the main casting. 3rd world contries do not
                  > routinely sell bags of "quickcrete". This bag of portland powder (type I)
                  > is likely to be his largest initial investment until he gets to the
                  > carraige and spindle.
                  >
                  > When it comes time to set the ways, the simplest thing to use will be a
                  > create a very dry concrete mix with no aggregate greater than 1/4". Add
                  > enough water to get the portland powder, sand, and aggregate to damp
                  > consistency that will just hold shape, then using a small dowel, pack this
                  > damp mix in around the ways. The key is to tamp it thoroughly.
                  >
                  > Once it begins to harden (90-120 minutes or so), the area should be kept
                  > moist(wet cloths and plastic) for a number of days. You can coat the ways
                  > to allow the possibility of removing the grout, but then you will also have
                  > to coat the inner bore of the concrete casting to prevent the portland
                  > grout from merging with the previously cast concrete. For this later
                  > issue, its probably best to have a "key cut" in the casting to allow the
                  > grout plug to mechanically lock into place.
                  >
                • Charles R Patton
                  A very easy source of lead is to talk to your local tire dealer. They routinely replace the lead balancing weights on the wheels when they change the tires.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 1 10:42 AM
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                    A very easy source of lead is to talk to your local tire dealer.   They routinely replace the lead balancing weights on the wheels when they change the tires.   The only hitch to this is you have to beat out the local metal recycler.  In my case I went in the first time after the guy had been through and took everything they had.  The lead is generally formed around the steel attachment clip, but that can be easily removed when you melt the lead.  Some weights will only have foam tape to attach them to alloy rims.   Anyway, the next trip I went in before him, and got about 10 lbs. of loose weights.

                    This niche business of recycling also got in the way of getting an old shock absorber for the shaft to use as a lathe alignment tool.  I went to about 4 different auto repair places with same story -- the metal recycler guy comes around and grabs them.  Finally, while having some work done at the dealership on my car, we went to the dumpster and found an absorber.  A little effort and I had a nice straight, well finished shaft to use as an alignment tool.

                     On 6/12/2012 2:43 PM, stan campbell wrote:
                     
                    The grout  I use, Rockite, I believe is 50,000 psi and is easily removed with a hammer drill or chisel. About $2 us a pound. Also, isn't most Babbit Lead based? What about lead from common car batteries.


                  • Pierre Coueffin
                    I deal with a fair amount of tire weights... The environazis have gotten to the tire industry around here, so I m seeing more and more steel weights. It helps
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 1 2:06 PM
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                      I deal with a fair amount of tire weights... The environazis have
                      gotten to the tire industry around here, so I'm seeing more and more
                      steel weights. It helps to go through the bin with a magnet and buy
                      the stuff that is left.

                      On 8/1/12, Charles R Patton <charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
                      > A very easy source of lead is to talk to your local tire dealer. They
                      > routinely replace the lead balancing weights on the wheels when they
                      > change the tires. The only hitch to this is you have to beat out the
                      > local metal recycler. In my case I went in the first time after the guy
                      > had been through and took everything they had. The lead is generally
                      > formed around the steel attachment clip, but that can be easily removed
                      > when you melt the lead. Some weights will only have foam tape to attach
                      > them to alloy rims. Anyway, the next trip I went in before him, and
                      > got about 10 lbs. of loose weights.
                      >
                      > This niche business of recycling also got in the way of getting an old
                      > shock absorber for the shaft to use as a lathe alignment tool. I went
                      > to about 4 different auto repair places with same story -- the metal
                      > recycler guy comes around and grabs them. Finally, while having some
                      > work done at the dealership on my car, we went to the dumpster and found
                      > an absorber. A little effort and I had a nice straight, well finished
                      > shaft to use as an alignment tool.
                      >
                      > On 6/12/2012 2:43 PM, stan campbell wrote:
                      >> The grout I use, Rockite, I believe is 50,000 psi and is easily
                      >> removed with a hammer drill or chisel. About $2 us a pound. Also,
                      >> isn't most Babbit Lead based? What about lead from common car batteries.
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                    • Edgar Castelo
                      But ve muzzzt obey zze Ztate Orderzzz! LOL http://thefinereport.com/2012/07/bloomingidiotbergs-latest-directive/
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 1 2:14 PM
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                        But ve muzzzt obey zze Ztate Orderzzz! LOL
                        http://thefinereport.com/2012/07/bloomingidiotbergs-latest-directive/

                        On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Pierre Coueffin <pcoueffin@...> wrote:
                         

                        I deal with a fair amount of tire weights... The environazis have
                        gotten to the tire industry around here, so I'm seeing more and more
                        steel weights. It helps to go through the bin with a magnet and buy
                        the stuff that is left.



                        On 8/1/12, Charles R Patton <charles.r.patton@...> wrote:
                        > A very easy source of lead is to talk to your local tire dealer. They
                        > routinely replace the lead balancing weights on the wheels when they
                        > change the tires. The only hitch to this is you have to beat out the
                        > local metal recycler. In my case I went in the first time after the guy
                        > had been through and took everything they had. The lead is generally
                        > formed around the steel attachment clip, but that can be easily removed
                        > when you melt the lead. Some weights will only have foam tape to attach
                        > them to alloy rims. Anyway, the next trip I went in before him, and
                        > got about 10 lbs. of loose weights.
                        >
                        > This niche business of recycling also got in the way of getting an old
                        > shock absorber for the shaft to use as a lathe alignment tool. I went
                        > to about 4 different auto repair places with same story -- the metal
                        > recycler guy comes around and grabs them. Finally, while having some
                        > work done at the dealership on my car, we went to the dumpster and found
                        > an absorber. A little effort and I had a nice straight, well finished
                        > shaft to use as an alignment tool.
                        >
                        > On 6/12/2012 2:43 PM, stan campbell wrote:
                        >> The grout I use, Rockite, I believe is 50,000 psi and is easily
                        >> removed with a hammer drill or chisel. About $2 us a pound. Also,
                        >> isn't most Babbit Lead based? What about lead from common car batteries.
                        >>
                        >
                        >


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