Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Make magazine project

Expand Messages
  • oldstudentmsgt
    Ian & David, I m going to drop a couple of my own $.02 in here. Ian, if you mean precision is required to do anything, you re just flatly wrong. Watt s steam
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 1, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Ian & David, I'm going to drop a couple of my own $.02 in here.

      Ian, if you mean precision is required to do anything, you're just flatly wrong. Watt's steam engine had a 1/8" gap between the piston and cylinder walls. It still worked! Precision is relative to what you need. For his purposes, that was adequate precision. His engines were not particularly efficient, but they changed the world.

      As for flaws in the manufacture of machines of concrete, they do exist, but the method IS proven to work. Personally, I'd have a hard time waiting for the concrete to cure properly, but that is a personal failing. When you need a machine in a hurry, Cast Iron is NOT the way to go. Unless you don't mind having to recut surfaces as the metal stress relieves itself over a year or so. I suspect that the reason there are no surviving examples of the concrete machines is not that they wore out quickly, but that they were demolished after the war to make way for more conventional tools that were easier to relocate.

      Joe V. Romig wrote quite a bit about making tools using concrete for home workshops, and also many little hints and tips for both professional machinists and hobbyists that were published in Pop Mechanics & Pop Sci, as well as Machinery.

      As for how long it takes to learn to work a machine tool, I took a high school class in machine shop my senior year. I wasn't producing "precision" parts, but I was making functional tools. It was a one-semester course. I've since bought one of the little Chinese lathes David mentioned, and with less than 10 hours of work on it, I've started producing reasonable work. I'm also doing many of the modifications needed to make it less of kit, and more of a lathe.

      I had my first experience with a wood lathe a couple of years ago at the local Medieval Faire. Gentlman had a spring-pole lathe set up, and was using an axe to point the ends of sticks to mount in the "turns" that were carved into the stocks of the lathe. It took me less than 30 minutes playing with the thing to start getting cylindrical work from it. Hand-held tool, no carriage or cross-slide.

      And as David has noted, survival is a very good motivator. Water pumps and automobiles don't require micron tolerances. Nor do firearms, cartridges for them, meat grinders, air compressors, wind mills, nor many other objects and machines that can make life easier.

      I'm not an engineer, and my degree is in secondary education, but I've been a hobbyist metalworker for over 4 decades. I've researched and practiced old metalworking techniques, mostly for jewelry and weapons/armor. After making the armor, I wore it, and fought in it. Rattan swords, rather than edged steel, but blunt-force trauma will kill you just as dead as a sharp edge. I've also been an auto and aircraft mechanic, photographer, and electronics technician, so I'm familar with precision equipment. It can take decades to become a master, but basic competence can be developed within weeks or months with just a little motivation and some instruction. I've not used my limited machining skills since 1973, but I was able to fix pumps and such with hand-tools. ANY sort of lathe or milling machine would have simply made it easier. And I'm used to improvising tools. You might be surprised what people who work with their hands can do given machinery.

      Now, would I go the route that Pat and the gang have taken? No, probably not. I say that because I didn't go that route, although I've considered it, and helped with some ideas and suggestions, as I have followed along. I've had a drill press of one sort or another for quite a long time. I'm a rough carpenter, but it wouldn't be all that hard to make a wooden lathe, particularly if dimensioned lumber was available, or I had the means to make it. A decent knife and sharpening stone would be enough to start, if necessary, but a saw or two, and a plane would make it easier. As I mentioned, I got the little metalcutting lathe. It was less than $400. Of course, that is more than a year's wages in some countries.

      Might I make a suggestion? If you don't think the MMLathe will work, make some suggestions that you think will. I don't think it will be a great machine, but I'd rather have it than a wooden lathe. Lathes have been around for thousands of years. It's only been in the past 150 years or so that precision has had any meaning at all.

      and in the meantime, have a happy and successful New Year!

      Bill in OKC
      William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)



      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 12/30/2011 08:20 PM, Ian Newman wrote:
      > > Building a machine.
      > > I would not attempt to build a machine - I believe (as I have stated
      > > in a number of previous posts) that the process of construction is
      > > fundamentally flawed and is not an appropriate method of addressing
      > > the task of creating a machine from "first principles".
      >
      > Based on that premise, this discussion should not go forward, as it is
      > moot. For purposes of discussion, let us assume the premise is wrong.
      >
      > > I am a lecturer at a university in the UK and also at a college where
      > > I teach engineering apprentices. I have discussed the building of a
      > > machine with the institutions that I work at but there are so many
      > > fundamental flaws in the processes concerned that neither the college
      > > or the university would consider attempting to build a machine on the
      > > principles outlined in the instructions.
      >
      > Again, you are correct, IF the design is fundamentally flawed, you are
      > right.
      >
      > > I stand by my original comment that it is irresponsible to promote a
      > > design without evidence that the process is sound - I can't build one,
      > > you can't build one, Pat can't build one and yet you suggest that
      > > people in the third world should invest time money and resources into
      > > creating a machine based on untested ideas.
      >
      > Again, my response to the first paragraph shows agreement with you.
      >
      > > Regarding your second point - at no time have I suggested that the
      > > design is "sub-optimal" - as far as I'm concerned, if the design
      > > works, it is good. If it is optimal - that is a bonus.
      >
      > If a design puts the operator at risk of injury, IMHO it is
      > sub-optimal. I refrained from saying that it is so flawed as to be
      > unusable, since I do not believe that to be true. Here is where we
      > disagree -- how usable is the design? I believe it has utility, you do
      > not believe it will work. I have seen designs which work poorly, but
      > well enough to get the job done. This is an example of that design
      > school. It surely is not a Hardinge or a Monarch, it is closer to a
      > Craftsman or worse, but it will work.
      >
      > > Regarding your paragraphs three and four - I agree entirely.
      > >
      > > Regarding paragraph five, you have chosen two specific examples. Both
      > > of these examples are time critical and require competent machinists -
      > > I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. there are four
      > > possible scenarios:
      > >
      > > A skilled machinist with a precision machine.
      > > A skilled machinist with no accurate machine tools.
      > > An inexperienced machinist with a precision machine.
      > > An inexperienced machinist with no accurate machine tools.
      > >
      > > The initial premise is that an accurate machine tool is not available
      > > - that rules out option one and three.
      > >
      > > Any skilled machinist can produce accurate work on any machine given
      > > appropriate accessories - but we are assuming that there is no skilled
      > > operatives available.
      > >
      > > That leaves option four - do you seriously believe that an unskilled
      > > operator can build a machine and master the appropriate skills to
      > > create precission parts in a short time-scale? I do not think that
      > > this is a reasonable proposition.
      >
      > Aha, but we are not discussing precision parts, but marginally good
      > parts. An inexperiences operator using a barely functional tool can
      > often make a good enough part to keep things going until precision parts
      > arrive. If the tractor clutch chatters and works until the new flywheel
      > and pressure plate arrive, but the harvest is saved, what is the real
      > effect? The real effect is that the village is able to survive. If the
      > water pump vibrates and is less efficient, it is still better than none.
      >
      > I think you miss the point: The Multimachine is not and can never
      > become a CNC VMC, it isn't good enough. It is barely enough machine to
      > keep you going while the parts are coming. This is akin to the Seig
      > Oriental lathes, out of the box they don't work well, but they can be
      > made to do good work. A Multimachine can do poor, jackleg work, but
      > that is a better option that sitting down and dying. The Multimachine
      > will NEVER be a replacement for a good toolroom lathe, it will be a tool
      > to keep you going while the parts (which are 3 months away) start their
      > travels to you.
      >
      > A smoothbore, black powder shotgun made of pipe will NEVER be able to
      > win in a combat shooting contest, but if it allows you to keep food on
      > the table, there is no Donner Pass scenario to worry about. The
      > Multimachine is not a Benelli, it is a hunk of pipe on a big stick,
      > clearly sub-optimal, but maybe functional enough to keep you going.
      >
      > Dave 8{)
      >
      > --
      > /"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
      > illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
      > media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to
      > pick up a turd by the clean end."/
      > (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)
      >
      > NOTE TO ALL:
      >
      >
      > When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for
      > all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding
      > history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and
      > others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the
      > world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses
      > and viruses from being propagated.
      >
      > THANK YOU!
      >
    • drpshops@yahoo.com
      Hi Group I have looked at the drawing for the lathe, The concrete might be fine for ia machine. The big problem is getting the parts in alinement. The are too
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 3, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Group
        I have looked at the drawing for the lathe,
        The concrete might be fine for ia machine.
        The big problem is getting the parts in alinement.
        The are too many ways to mess up with it.

        In a 3 axis machine there is 6 directions of motions.

        Look at each part and see how much machineing is needed for each
        part.
        Does the builder have any machine to do this?

        There seems to me to be a lot of unknowns to building this lathe.
        For a unskilled builder it seem a hard job to do.

        Keith

        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 12/29/2011 04:21 PM, Ian Newman wrote:
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > > I'm still concerned that this process has never been used to produce a
        > > working machine. All the methods presented are just "bright ideas"
        > > that may make sense individually, but may not work in reality when
        > > combined in the way described in the text.
        > >
        > > Before publishing and releasing this document to a wider audience I
        > > think it is essential that prototype working machines are built and
        > > tested. Especially as the text implies that the processes are well
        > > established and proven technology.
        > >
        > > Ian.
        >
        > Ian,
        >
        > What you suggest may be true, can you provide the resources to build
        > one? I cannot and, it appears, Pat can not.
        >
        > You are correct, there are a lot of places where the design is
        > sub-optimal, e.g. the handwheel between the ways is incredibly dangerous
        > to someone wearing loose fitting clothing. This is why the bicycle
        > chain is discussed, another approach is to use automotive differential
        > gears to turn the nuts and run a shaft to the apron.
        >
        > Yet another issue is that the machine will wear out quickly, Yeomans'
        > design was done to make shells during a war, and it works well.
        > However, a war should last only a few years, few (if any) Yeomans design
        > lathes survive, many WWII South Bend lathes are still in use today, as
        > are Monarchs, etc. Good CI (Cast Iron) lathes take years to build (from
        > the raw castings to finished product.) Yeomans' design took months.
        > While the Yeomans' design lathes generally can hold a few thousandths
        > with a good machinist, good CI lathes are better than 1/10 of that error.
        >
        > In a war good enough is often more desirable, since making perfect stuff
        > takes so long your opponent wins.
        >
        > This is an example of a tool which allows someone to win at survival,
        > when the village water pump fails and needs repair before the village
        > dies of dehydration, or to repair the tractor during harvest, rather
        > than waiting for parts for a month or two while the harvest rots.
        >
        > Dave 8{)
        >
        > --
        > /"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
        > illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
        > media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to
        > pick up a turd by the clean end."/
        > (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)
        >
        > NOTE TO ALL:
        >
        >
        > When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for
        > all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding
        > history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and
        > others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the
        > world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses
        > and viruses from being propagated.
        >
        > THANK YOU!
        >
      • costasv
        Hi all Yesterady some colleagues of mine told me that there are some kind of resine-type concrete that is very strong, is not srinking at all.They cost
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 3, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi all
          Yesterady some colleagues of mine told me that there are some kind of resine-type concrete that is very strong, is not srinking at all.They cost something like 30 euro a bag of 25 Kg and you can add inside gravels to make concrete.
          Maybe we must seriuselly consider this mterial insteed of epoxy granite that is much highly priced.
          Yes, you have right, making this 'ways alignment' could be very difficult for an unskilled builder but if someone try to build one, a precise 'how-to' can be writen that could be a detailed alignment instruction for futures builders.
          Costas


          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, drpshops@... wrote:
          >
          > Hi Group
          > I have looked at the drawing for the lathe,
          > The concrete might be fine for ia machine.
          > The big problem is getting the parts in alinement.
          > The are too many ways to mess up with it.
          >
          > In a 3 axis machine there is 6 directions of motions.
          >
          > Look at each part and see how much machineing is needed for each
          > part.
          > Does the builder have any machine to do this?
          >
          > There seems to me to be a lot of unknowns to building this lathe.
          > For a unskilled builder it seem a hard job to do.
          >
          > Keith
          >
          > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@> wrote:
          > >
          > > On 12/29/2011 04:21 PM, Ian Newman wrote:
          > > > Hi,
          > > >
          > > > I'm still concerned that this process has never been used to produce a
          > > > working machine. All the methods presented are just "bright ideas"
          > > > that may make sense individually, but may not work in reality when
          > > > combined in the way described in the text.
          > > >
          > > > Before publishing and releasing this document to a wider audience I
          > > > think it is essential that prototype working machines are built and
          > > > tested. Especially as the text implies that the processes are well
          > > > established and proven technology.
          > > >
          > > > Ian.
          > >
          > > Ian,
          > >
          > > What you suggest may be true, can you provide the resources to build
          > > one? I cannot and, it appears, Pat can not.
          > >
          > > You are correct, there are a lot of places where the design is
          > > sub-optimal, e.g. the handwheel between the ways is incredibly dangerous
          > > to someone wearing loose fitting clothing. This is why the bicycle
          > > chain is discussed, another approach is to use automotive differential
          > > gears to turn the nuts and run a shaft to the apron.
          > >
          > > Yet another issue is that the machine will wear out quickly, Yeomans'
          > > design was done to make shells during a war, and it works well.
          > > However, a war should last only a few years, few (if any) Yeomans design
          > > lathes survive, many WWII South Bend lathes are still in use today, as
          > > are Monarchs, etc. Good CI (Cast Iron) lathes take years to build (from
          > > the raw castings to finished product.) Yeomans' design took months.
          > > While the Yeomans' design lathes generally can hold a few thousandths
          > > with a good machinist, good CI lathes are better than 1/10 of that error.
          > >
          > > In a war good enough is often more desirable, since making perfect stuff
          > > takes so long your opponent wins.
          > >
          > > This is an example of a tool which allows someone to win at survival,
          > > when the village water pump fails and needs repair before the village
          > > dies of dehydration, or to repair the tractor during harvest, rather
          > > than waiting for parts for a month or two while the harvest rots.
          > >
          > > Dave 8{)
          > >
          > > --
          > > /"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
          > > illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
          > > media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to
          > > pick up a turd by the clean end."/
          > > (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)
          > >
          > > NOTE TO ALL:
          > >
          > >
          > > When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for
          > > all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding
          > > history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and
          > > others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the
          > > world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses
          > > and viruses from being propagated.
          > >
          > > THANK YOU!
          > >
          >
        • Pat Delany
          Ease of alignment has always been the main consideration. A carefully held spacer can be used to set the distance between the ways. A piece of float glass
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Ease of alignment has always been the main consideration.

            A carefully held spacer can be used to set the distance between the ways.
            A piece of float glass plate can be used to make the ways in plane.
            A ball bearing on the plate glass can make the level enough for this use.
            Firmly clamping the carriage shoes to the ways before pouring the carriage concrete will align the carriage with the ways.
            A dial indicator on the left, right and center of the carriage can be used to align the spindle.
            A dial indicator on the spindle can be used to align the cross slide.
            A MT drill bit held in the spindle can be used to align the MT socket in the tailstock.

            Very simple but it took many months for me to figure out!
            A $68 machinist level will make everything much easier.

            Pat


            From: costasv <cvgoodphones317@...>
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 12:27 AM
            Subject: [multimachine] Re: Make magazine project

             
            Hi all
            Yesterady some colleagues of mine told me that there are some kind of resine-type concrete that is very strong, is not srinking at all.They cost something like 30 euro a bag of 25 Kg and you can add inside gravels to make concrete.
            Maybe we must seriuselly consider this mterial insteed of epoxy granite that is much highly priced.
            Yes, you have right, making this 'ways alignment' could be very difficult for an unskilled builder but if someone try to build one, a precise 'how-to' can be writen that could be a detailed alignment instruction for futures builders.
            Costas

            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, drpshops@... wrote:
            >
            > Hi Group
            > I have looked at the drawing for the lathe,
            > The concrete might be fine for ia machine.
            > The big problem is getting the parts in alinement.
            > The are too many ways to mess up with it.
            >
            > In a 3 axis machine there is 6 directions of motions.
            >
            > Look at each part and see how much machineing is needed for each
            > part.
            > Does the builder have any machine to do this?
            >
            > There seems to me to be a lot of unknowns to building this lathe.
            > For a unskilled builder it seem a hard job to do.
            >
            > Keith
            >
            > --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@> wrote:
            > >
            > > On 12/29/2011 04:21 PM, Ian Newman wrote:
            > > > Hi,
            > > >
            > > > I'm still concerned that this process has never been used to produce a
            > > > working machine. All the methods presented are just "bright ideas"
            > > > that may make sense individually, but may not work in reality when
            > > > combined in the way described in the text.
            > > >
            > > > Before publishing and releasing this document to a wider audience I
            > > > think it is essential that prototype working machines are built and
            > > > tested. Especially as the text implies that the processes are well
            > > > established and proven technology.
            > > >
            > > > Ian.
            > >
            > > Ian,
            > >
            > > What you suggest may be true, can you provide the resources to build
            > > one? I cannot and, it appears, Pat can not.
            > >
            > > You are correct, there are a lot of places where the design is
            > > sub-optimal, e.g. the handwheel between the ways is incredibly dangerous
            > > to someone wearing loose fitting clothing. This is why the bicycle
            > > chain is discussed, another approach is to use automotive differential
            > > gears to turn the nuts and run a shaft to the apron.
            > >
            > > Yet another issue is that the machine will wear out quickly, Yeomans'
            > > design was done to make shells during a war, and it works well.
            > > However, a war should last only a few years, few (if any) Yeomans design
            > > lathes survive, many WWII South Bend lathes are still in use today, as
            > > are Monarchs, etc. Good CI (Cast Iron) lathes take years to build (from
            > > the raw castings to finished product.) Yeomans' design took months.
            > > While the Yeomans' design lathes generally can hold a few thousandths
            > > with a good machinist, good CI lathes are better than 1/10 of that error.
            > >
            > > In a war good enough is often more desirable, since making perfect stuff
            > > takes so long your opponent wins.
            > >
            > > This is an example of a tool which allows someone to win at survival,
            > > when the village water pump fails and needs repair before the village
            > > dies of dehydration, or to repair the tractor during harvest, rather
            > > than waiting for parts for a month or two while the harvest rots.
            > >
            > > Dave 8{)
            > >
            > > --
            > > /"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
            > > illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream
            > > media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to
            > > pick up a turd by the clean end."/
            > > (quoted from http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30060)
            > >
            > > NOTE TO ALL:
            > >
            > >
            > > When forwarding emails, please use only "Blind Carbon Copy" or "Bcc" for
            > > all recipients. Please "delete" or "highlight & cut" any forwarding
            > > history which includes my email address! It is a courtesy to me and
            > > others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all over the
            > > world! Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from mining addresses
            > > and viruses from being propagated.
            > >
            > > THANK YOU!
            > >
            >



          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.