Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200

Expand Messages
  • michael broadbent
    Hi,      as with a lot of things there is no best way ,each problem brings about a different approach.With that said I would be very interested in your
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 31, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,
           as with a lot of things there is no best way ,each problem brings about a different approach.With that said I would be very interested in your results.
           In the shop I worked in the only time rust was a problem was after the shutdown for holidays  and  as millwrights we tried various ideas with different results .Management solved the problem they cut out the shut downs.LOL.
        
          Happy New Year to you all
       
      Mikeafloat


      From: Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...>
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 31 December, 2010 20:57:53
      Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200

      Howdy all,

      I have been researching rust removal for two weeks now. I have learned
      three very important things:

      1. Everyone thinks the method they favor is the best method.
      2. Never use a chemical from the strong acid list.
      3. Never use stainless steel as a cathode for electrolysis.

      I have read everything from discussions such as this one, to white
      papers, to old-time methods, to ad copy for commercial products. I
      decided that since everyone claims to have "THE" best method I will
      experiment and report back on what I find. I settled on four methods to
      test:

      1. Acid etch with vinegar and salt.
      2. Acid etch and surface conversion to iron phosphate with phosphoric
      acid. (Etch and Prep).
      3. Chelation with a commercial product.
      4. Electrolysis.

      The methods were chosen for:

      1. Cost.
      2. Availability of the chemicals.
      3. Speed of the rust cutting action.
      4. Ease of use.
      5. Safety.
      6. Least impact on the good iron under the rust.
      7. Environmental friendliness.

      Not considered at all were the "rust converting" chemicals like POR-15.
      Rust converters have their place, certainly. But converters work by
      etching the iron or steel and then binding the rust with polymers. I
      have used it in the past for sealing floor panels during a car
      restoration. However, I won't be using POR-15 on this project. Rust
      converters fill and flatten the treated area; not good for threaded
      parts in particular. And, I just don't want the finish produced by
      conversion. Else it could be a viable alternative for the legs and pan.

      Sand blasting requires equipment that puts the method in an entirely
      different league from etching and electrolysis. I've used a sand blaster
      but I have never used a chemical bath before. I just want to try the
      chemicals. So sand blasting will be used only if the other methods prove
      out unsatisfactory for some reason; which I do not foresee.

      I have all the chemicals I need to do the comparison. I will let you
      guys know what I learn.

      Regards,

      Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
      --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.


      On 12/31/2010 5:49 AM, GGB wrote:
      > Washing soda and a battery charger will strip rust and oil from steel and cast iron surfaces.


      ------------------------------------

      -------------
      We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/

      Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
      -------------Yahoo! Groups Links

      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/

      <*> Your email settings:
          Individual Email | Traditional

      <*> To change settings online go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multimachine/join
          (Yahoo! ID required)

      <*> To change settings via email:
          multimachine-digest@yahoogroups.com
          multimachine-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          multimachine-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


    • HB
      How does citric acid compare to the proven commercially sold rust removers like CLR and EvapoRust? Is there a price/cost advantage in using citric acid
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        How does citric acid compare to the proven commercially sold rust removers like CLR and EvapoRust?
        Is there a price/cost advantage in using citric acid instead?
         
        I know that CLR and EvapoRust only attack the rust in steel and leave the clean steel without any chemical reaction.
        However, CLR do react fast with zinc but slower with brass.
         
         
        --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Bruce <bbellows@...> wrote:

        From: Bruce <bbellows@...>
        Subject: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 7:40 PM

         
        Citric acid also works quite well and I purchase it in powder form at a drug store. I also have a good article on removing rust with it that I'll place in the files section. I'm currently working on getting an Atlas #7 metal shaper that is also rust coated but it's all assembled and in good condition.

        Bruce

        --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
        >
        > Keith,
        >
        > It is complete except for the fifth leg that supports the motor and
        > countershaft assembly. I can weld up some angle iron for that. It didn't
        > come with instructions but the next best thing; exploded parts diagrams. ;-)
        >
        > On Sunday I will strip it down to the bed so my son and I can carry it
        > into the shed. Right now it is covered with canvas, still sitting on the
        > trailer. Also on Sunday I will start soaking small parts in vinegar to
        > remove rust. Then it is a matter of one step at a time.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
        > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
        >
        >
        > On 12/24/2010 10:49 PM, keith gutshall wrote:
        > > It doesn't look to bad ,if you got all the parts.
        >


      • Bruce Bellows
        The thing I like about citric acid is that it does a good job and is safe to handle. It is mixed in water to what ever strength I desire. With the commercial
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          The thing I like about citric acid is that it does a good job and is safe to handle. It is mixed in water to what ever strength I desire. With the commercial stuff you get what you get. Citric acid comes in powder form and I paid $10.00 for 500g, I haven't done the calculations to see how many gallons it would make but I will for the group. I think all these different options being presented are great and maybe a comparison study would be helpful. I know that I have 3 of the products being suggested, Citric Acid, CLR and vinegar. Now I just need some rusty steel. That shouldn't be hard to find :)

          Bruce

          On 1/1/2011 4:42 AM, HB wrote:
           

          How does citric acid compare to the proven commercially sold rust removers like CLR and EvapoRust?
          Is there a price/cost advantage in using citric acid instead?
           
          I know that CLR and EvapoRust only attack the rust in steel and leave the clean steel without any chemical reaction.
          However, CLR do react fast with zinc but slower with brass.
           
           
          --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Bruce <bbellows@...> wrote:

          From: Bruce <bbellows@...>
          Subject: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 7:40 PM

           
          Citric acid also works quite well and I purchase it in powder form at a drug store. I also have a good article on removing rust with it that I'll place in the files section. I'm currently working on getting an Atlas #7 metal shaper that is also rust coated but it's all assembled and in good condition.

          Bruce

          --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
          >
          > Keith,
          >
          > It is complete except for the fifth leg that supports the motor and
          > countershaft assembly. I can weld up some angle iron for that. It didn't
          > come with instructions but the next best thing; exploded parts diagrams. ;-)
          >
          > On Sunday I will strip it down to the bed so my son and I can carry it
          > into the shed. Right now it is covered with canvas, still sitting on the
          > trailer. Also on Sunday I will start soaking small parts in vinegar to
          > remove rust. Then it is a matter of one step at a time.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
          > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
          >
          >
          > On 12/24/2010 10:49 PM, keith gutshall wrote:
          > > It doesn't look to bad ,if you got all the parts.
          >


        • keith gutshall
          Hi Bruce  I have a few pieces you can test.  I think Rust never sleeps here in Floridia.I have some cast iron faceplates; you can clean them today,and
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Bruce
             I have a few pieces you can test.
             I think Rust never sleeps here in Floridia.I have some cast iron faceplates;
            you can clean them today,and tomorrow they are rusted.
            Keith


            Deep Run Portage
            Back Shop
            " The Lizard Works"

            --- On Sun, 1/2/11, Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...> wrote:

            From: Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...>
            Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, January 2, 2011, 11:51 AM

             
            The thing I like about citric acid is that it does a good job and is safe to handle. It is mixed in water to what ever strength I desire. With the commercial stuff you get what you get. Citric acid comes in powder form and I paid $10.00 for 500g, I haven't done the calculations to see how many gallons it would make but I will for the group. I think all these different options being presented are great and maybe a comparison study would be helpful. I know that I have 3 of the products being suggested, Citric Acid, CLR and vinegar. Now I just need some rusty steel. That shouldn't be hard to find :)

            Bruce

            On 1/1/2011 4:42 AM, HB wrote:
             
            How does citric acid compare to the proven commercially sold rust removers like CLR and EvapoRust?
            Is there a price/cost advantage in using citric acid instead?
             
            I know that CLR and EvapoRust only attack the rust in steel and leave the clean steel without any chemical reaction.
            However, CLR do react fast with zinc but slower with brass.
             
             
            --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Bruce <bbellows@...> wrote:

            From: Bruce <bbellows@...>
            Subject: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 7:40 PM

             
            Citric acid also works quite well and I purchase it in powder form at a drug store. I also have a good article on removing rust with it that I'll place in the files section. I'm currently working on getting an Atlas #7 metal shaper that is also rust coated but it's all assembled and in good condition.

            Bruce

            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
            >
            > Keith,
            >
            > It is complete except for the fifth leg that supports the motor and
            > countershaft assembly. I can weld up some angle iron for that. It didn't
            > come with instructions but the next best thing; exploded parts diagrams. ;-)
            >
            > On Sunday I will strip it down to the bed so my son and I can carry it
            > into the shed. Right now it is covered with canvas, still sitting on the
            > trailer. Also on Sunday I will start soaking small parts in vinegar to
            > remove rust. Then it is a matter of one step at a time.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
            > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
            >
            >
            > On 12/24/2010 10:49 PM, keith gutshall wrote:
            > > It doesn't look to bad ,if you got all the parts.
            >



          • Alan Millar
            ... I ve used this method, and it works great. It is inexpensive, easy, and quite effective. I think I spent about $3 on a box of washing soda from the
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              On Dec 31, 2010, at 3:49 AM, GGB wrote:
              > Keith wrote:>Would something like W-D 40 work better and not
              > corrade the bare metal?
              >
              > Bill's electrolysis page http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
              > Washing soda and a battery charger will strip rust and oil from
              > steel and cast iron surfaces.

              I've used this method, and it works great. It is inexpensive, easy,
              and quite effective. I think I spent about $3 on a box of washing
              soda from the laundry aisle at the grocery store, and I already had
              the car battery charger. Good stuff.

              - Alan
            • GGB
              ... Thanks. There is another advantage which is that the alkali (unlike acid) does not in any way attack the metal you are cleaning. Paul
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Alan Millar wrote:
                >
                > I've used this method, and it works great.

                Thanks. There is another advantage which is that the alkali (unlike acid) does not in any way attack the metal you are cleaning.

                Paul
              • HB
                That may be true if you limit yourself to just steel or iron metals. Alkalis such as Sodium Hydroxide attack metals such as aluminum, zinc, or magnesium.  
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  That may be true if you limit yourself to just steel or iron metals.
                  Alkalis such as Sodium Hydroxide attack metals such as aluminum, zinc, or magnesium.
                   

                   --- On Sun, 1/2/11, GGB <self.adhesive@...> wrote:


                  From: GGB <self.adhesive@...>
                  Subject: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
                  To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, January 2, 2011, 12:25 PM


                   Alan Millar wrote:
                  >
                  > I've used this method, and it works great.

                  Thanks. There is another advantage which is that the alkali (unlike acid) does not in any way attack the metal you are cleaning.

                  Paul
                • HB
                  Are they not coated with oil? In the Far East where it s always humid and hot all year round , unpainted cast iron machine parts are simply coated with oil to
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 2, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Are they not coated with oil?
                    In the Far East where it's always humid and hot all year round , unpainted cast iron machine parts are simply coated with oil to prevent rusting.

                    --- On Sun, 1/2/11, keith gutshall <drpshops@...> wrote:

                    From: keith gutshall <drpshops@...>
                    Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
                    To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, January 2, 2011, 10:32 AM

                     
                    Hi Bruce
                     I have a few pieces you can test.
                     I think Rust never sleeps here in Floridia.I have some cast iron faceplates;
                    you can clean them today,and tomorrow they are rusted.
                    Keith


                    Deep Run Portage
                    Back Shop
                    " The Lizard Works"

                    --- On Sun, 1/2/11, Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...> wrote:

                    From: Bruce Bellows <bbellows@...>
                    Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
                    To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, January 2, 2011, 11:51 AM

                     
                    The thing I like about citric acid is that it does a good job and is safe to handle. It is mixed in water to what ever strength I desire. With the commercial stuff you get what you get. Citric acid comes in powder form and I paid $10.00 for 500g, I haven't done the calculations to see how many gallons it would make but I will for the group. I think all these different options being presented are great and maybe a comparison study would be helpful. I know that I have 3 of the products being suggested, Citric Acid, CLR and vinegar. Now I just need some rusty steel. That shouldn't be hard to find :)

                    Bruce

                    On 1/1/2011 4:42 AM, HB wrote:
                     
                    How does citric acid compare to the proven commercially sold rust removers like CLR and EvapoRust?
                    Is there a price/cost advantage in using citric acid instead?
                     
                    I know that CLR and EvapoRust only attack the rust in steel and leave the clean steel without any chemical reaction.
                    However, CLR do react fast with zinc but slower with brass.
                     
                     
                    --- On Thu, 12/30/10, Bruce <bbellows@...> wrote:

                    From: Bruce <bbellows@...>
                    Subject: [multimachine] Re: I bought a 1947 Logan model 200
                    To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, December 30, 2010, 7:40 PM

                     
                    Citric acid also works quite well and I purchase it in powder form at a drug store. I also have a good article on removing rust with it that I'll place in the files section. I'm currently working on getting an Atlas #7 metal shaper that is also rust coated but it's all assembled and in good condition.

                    Bruce

                    --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Keith,
                    >
                    > It is complete except for the fifth leg that supports the motor and
                    > countershaft assembly. I can weld up some angle iron for that. It didn't
                    > come with instructions but the next best thing; exploded parts diagrams. ;-)
                    >
                    > On Sunday I will strip it down to the bed so my son and I can carry it
                    > into the shed. Right now it is covered with canvas, still sitting on the
                    > trailer. Also on Sunday I will start soaking small parts in vinegar to
                    > remove rust. Then it is a matter of one step at a time.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                    > --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.
                    >
                    >
                    > On 12/24/2010 10:49 PM, keith gutshall wrote:
                    > > It doesn't look to bad ,if you got all the parts.
                    >




                  • Pierre Coueffin
                    Did anyone mention a 1:5 mixture of molasses and water? http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/rust_molasses.htm I ve seen it mentioned by guys who restore
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 7, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Did anyone mention a 1:5 mixture of molasses and water? 

                      http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rust/rust_molasses.htm

                      I've seen it mentioned by guys who restore antiques because it is very gentle on the parts, but it takes some time to work...

                      On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:
                      I settled on four methods to

                      test:

                      1. Acid etch with vinegar and salt.
                      2. Acid etch and surface conversion to iron phosphate with phosphoric
                      acid. (Etch and Prep).
                      3. Chelation with a commercial product.
                      4. Electrolysis.


                    • Shannon DeWolfe
                      Pierre, I considered molasses but decided against using it because molasses does act very slowly; up to several weeks. Regards, Mr. Shannon DeWolfe --I ve
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 7, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Pierre,

                        I considered molasses but decided against using it because molasses does
                        act very slowly; up to several weeks.

                        Regards,

                        Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
                        --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.


                        On 1/7/2011 1:30 PM, Pierre Coueffin wrote:
                        > but it takes some time to work...
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.