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Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits

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  • Darwin Wandler
    Village Press Machinist Workshop or Home Shop Machinist Did a complete in depth article on drill bits. I have too many to search through to tell you the exact
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 30, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Village Press
      Machinist Workshop or
      Home Shop Machinist
      Did a complete in depth article on drill bits.
      I have too many to search through to tell you the exact issue but if you contact 
      cknopf@...
      I am sure she can help you out.
      Darwin

      On 9/30/2010 3:58 PM, efe Eren wrote:
       

      Dear David and Ian,

      Thanks for your answers.
      I am especially looking for twist drill which has 2 or 3 flutes. the flutes can have different helix angles between 20 and 45 degree. the point angle and lips angle are depend on this as well. I would like to know how these drills are made. I mean when the flute and the point angle are made by grinds, what are the parameters and how they are changing for different size of diameters. I would like to make 3D model of drills, but I don't know these parameters. is there any book, website, video, paper related to this?

      Cheers,
      Efe

      --- On Thu, 30/9/10, Ian Newman <ian_new@...> wrote:

      > From: Ian Newman <ian_new@...>
      > Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
      > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 14:56
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >  
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      > Hi
      > David,
      >
      > While you are correct in saying that a drill does not
      > helical flutes to clear the swarf, the flute angle is a very
      > important part of the drill design.
      >
      > You make the comparison between a drill cutting lip and a
      > lathe or shaper tool - to carry the analogy further, the
      > helical angle of the flute is the equivalent of the top rake
      > of the lathe tool.
      >
      > A quick helix give a sharper cutting edge to the drill
      > which greatly reduces the amount of energy (and so power)
      > required to drill a hole, but at the cost of a more fragile
      > cutting edge which will get blunt quickly - this is why
      > quick helix drills are preferred for soft materials such as
      > copper and aluminium.
      >
      > On the other hand, a slow helix is better for drilling
      > brass (or other 'greedy' materials) to prevent the
      > drill pulling into the work.
      >
      > Ian.
      >
      >
      > --- On Thu,
      > 30/9/10, David G. LeVine
      > <dlevine@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
      > Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
      > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 6:56
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >  
      >
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      >
      > On 09/28/2010 12:51 PM, efe_eren@... wrote:
      >
      > > Hi All,
      >
      > > I would like to model drill bit geometry, however I
      > don't know how I can make the flute and the head of the
      > drill bit. is there any data for grinding of drill bit?
      > Could you recommend some sources and share you information?
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Thanks in advance,
      >
      > > Efe
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > Let's start with clearing up an assumption. There does
      > not need to be a
      >
      > spiral on the body to clear chips.
      >
      >
      >
      > Yes, many bits use it, but solid carbide bits don't and
      > spade bits don't
      >
      > (for example.)
      >
      >
      >
      > As far as the "head", it really depends on how
      > many flutes there will be
      >
      > and what kind of cutting will be done. Let's start
      > with an easy one,
      >
      > one flute. The edge looks a lot like a lathe or shaper
      > bit. If the
      >
      > drill has no spiral, it is simple to model. As soon as you
      > have
      >
      > multiple flutes and spirals, a lot of options come into
      > play. What kind
      >
      > of flutes, how fast is the spiral, etc.
      >
      >
      >
      > Would you like to refine what you are looking at so we can
      > give you
      >
      > better references?
      >
      >
      >
      > Dave 8{)
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    • Fred Smith
      I believe there is a book on making drill bits in the Lindsay Technical Catalog (search for website under that name). ... From: keith gutshall To:
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        
        I believe there is a book on making drill bits in the 'Lindsay Technical Catalog' (search for website under that name).
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 12:06 AM
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits


        On 9/30/2010 3:58 PM, efe Eren wrote:
        Dear David and Ian,
        
        Thanks for your answers.
        I am especially looking for twist drill which has 2 or 3 flutes. the flutes can have different helix angles between 20 and 45 degree. the point angle and lips angle are depend on this as well. I would like to know how these drills are made. I mean when the flute and the point angle are made by  grinds, what are the parameters and how they are changing for different size of diameters. I would like to make 3D model of drills, but I don't know these parameters. is there any book, website, video, paper related to this?
        
        Cheers,
        Efe
        
        --- On Thu, 30/9/10, Ian Newman <ian_new@...> wrote:
        
        
        From: Ian Newman <ian_new@...>
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 14:56
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
         
         
        
        
        
          
        
        
            
              
              
              Hi
        David,
        
        While you are correct in saying that a drill does not
        helical flutes to clear the swarf, the flute angle is a very
        important part of the drill design.
        
        You make the comparison between a drill cutting lip and a
        lathe or shaper tool - to carry the analogy further, the
        helical angle of the flute is the equivalent of the top rake
        of the lathe tool.
        
        A quick helix give a sharper cutting edge to the drill
        which greatly reduces the amount of energy (and so power)
        required to drill a hole, but at the cost of a more fragile
        cutting edge which will get blunt quickly - this is why
        quick helix drills are preferred for soft materials such as
        copper and aluminium.
        
        On the other hand, a slow helix is better for drilling
        brass (or other 'greedy' materials) to prevent the
        drill pulling into the work.
        
        Ian.
        
        
        --- On Thu,
         30/9/10, David G. LeVine
        <dlevine@...> wrote:
        
        From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 6:56
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
         
        
        
        
            
              
              
              On 09/28/2010 12:51 PM, efe_eren@... wrote:
        
        
        Hi All,
        
        I would like to model drill bit geometry, however I
        
        don't know how I can make the flute and the head of the
        drill bit. is there any data for grinding of drill bit?
        Could you recommend some sources and share you information?
        
        
        Thanks in advance,
        
        Efe
        
           
        
        Let's start with clearing up an assumption.  There does
        not need to be a 
        
        spiral on the body to clear chips.
        
        
        
        Yes, many bits use it, but solid carbide bits don't and
        spade bits don't 
        
        (for example.)
        
        
        
        As far as the "head", it really depends on how
        many flutes there will be 
        
        and what kind of cutting will be done.  Let's start
        with an easy one, 
        
        one flute.  The edge looks a lot like a lathe or shaper
        bit. If the 
        
        drill has no spiral, it is simple to model.  As soon as you
        have 
        
        multiple flutes and spirals, a lot of options come into
        play.  What kind 
        
        of flutes, how fast is the spiral, etc.
        
        
        
        Would you like to refine what you are looking at so we can
        give you 
        
        better references?
        
        
        
        Dave  8{)
        
        
        
            
             
        
        
        
         
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
              
        
            
             
        
            
            
        
        
         
        
        
        
          
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
              
        
        
        
        ------------------------------------
        
        -------------
        We have a sister site for files and pictures dedicated to concrete machine framed machine tools. You will find a great deal of information about concrete based machines and the inventor of the concrete frame lathe, Lucian Ingraham Yeomans. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Multimachine-Concrete-Machine-Tools/
        
        Also visit the Joseph V. Romig group for even more concrete tool construction, shop notes, stories, and wisdom from the early 20th Century.
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/romig_designs/
        -------------Yahoo! Groups Links
        
        <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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      • o1bigtenor
        ... If you look at the literature from ALL the larger (and many of the smaller) manufacturers you will find enough information to keep you busy for a very very
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Fred Smith <fsmith01@...> wrote:
          


          I believe there is a book on making drill bits in the 'Lindsay Technical Catalog' (search for website under that name).

          If you look at the literature from ALL the larger (and many of the smaller) manufacturers you will find enough information to keep you busy for a very very very long time!

          Darald

        • iceplanet452
          Another idea: Google SketchUp s 3D Warehouse, search for drill bit : http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=%22drill+bit%22&styp=m&btnG=Search HTH, N
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 3, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Another idea:

            Google SketchUp's 3D Warehouse, search for "drill bit":

            http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/search?q=%22drill+bit%22&styp=m&btnG=Search

            HTH,

            N


            --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, efe Eren <efe_eren@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear David and Ian,
            >
            > Thanks for your answers.
            > I am especially looking for twist drill which has 2 or 3 flutes. the flutes can have different helix angles between 20 and 45 degree. the point angle and lips angle are depend on this as well. I would like to know how these drills are made. I mean when the flute and the point angle are made by grinds, what are the parameters and how they are changing for different size of diameters. I would like to make 3D model of drills, but I don't know these parameters. is there any book, website, video, paper related to this?
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Efe
            >
            > --- On Thu, 30/9/10, Ian Newman <ian_new@...> wrote:
            >
            > > From: Ian Newman <ian_new@...>
            > > Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
            > > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 14:56
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi
            > > David,
            > >
            > > While you are correct in saying that a drill does not
            > > helical flutes to clear the swarf, the flute angle is a very
            > > important part of the drill design.
            > >
            > > You make the comparison between a drill cutting lip and a
            > > lathe or shaper tool - to carry the analogy further, the
            > > helical angle of the flute is the equivalent of the top rake
            > > of the lathe tool.
            > >
            > > A quick helix give a sharper cutting edge to the drill
            > > which greatly reduces the amount of energy (and so power)
            > > required to drill a hole, but at the cost of a more fragile
            > > cutting edge which will get blunt quickly - this is why
            > > quick helix drills are preferred for soft materials such as
            > > copper and aluminium.
            > >
            > > On the other hand, a slow helix is better for drilling
            > > brass (or other 'greedy' materials) to prevent the
            > > drill pulling into the work.
            > >
            > > Ian.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- On Thu,
            > > 30/9/10, David G. LeVine
            > > <dlevine@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > From: David G. LeVine <dlevine@...>
            > > Subject: Re: [multimachine] manufacturing of drill bits
            > > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Thursday, 30 September, 2010, 6:56
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >  
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On 09/28/2010 12:51 PM, efe_eren@... wrote:
            > >
            > > > Hi All,
            > >
            > > > I would like to model drill bit geometry, however I
            > > don't know how I can make the flute and the head of the
            > > drill bit. is there any data for grinding of drill bit?
            > > Could you recommend some sources and share you information?
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Thanks in advance,
            > >
            > > > Efe
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Let's start with clearing up an assumption. There does
            > > not need to be a
            > >
            > > spiral on the body to clear chips.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yes, many bits use it, but solid carbide bits don't and
            > > spade bits don't
            > >
            > > (for example.)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > As far as the "head", it really depends on how
            > > many flutes there will be
            > >
            > > and what kind of cutting will be done. Let's start
            > > with an easy one,
            > >
            > > one flute. The edge looks a lot like a lathe or shaper
            > > bit. If the
            > >
            > > drill has no spiral, it is simple to model. As soon as you
            > > have
            > >
            > > multiple flutes and spirals, a lot of options come into
            > > play. What kind
            > >
            > > of flutes, how fast is the spiral, etc.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Would you like to refine what you are looking at so we can
            > > give you
            > >
            > > better references?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Dave 8{)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • David G. LeVine
            ... If you go on YouTube, MrPete222 AKA TubalCain has a good drill bit tutorial in three parts. Well worth spending a bit of time watching. He mentions a few
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 3, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              On 09/30/2010 04:58 PM, efe Eren wrote:
              > Dear David and Ian,
              >
              > Thanks for your answers.
              > I am especially looking for twist drill which has 2 or 3 flutes. the flutes can have different helix angles between 20 and 45 degree. the point angle and lips angle are depend on this as well. I would like to know how these drills are made. I mean when the flute and the point angle are made by grinds, what are the parameters and how they are changing for different size of diameters. I would like to make 3D model of drills, but I don't know these parameters. is there any book, website, video, paper related to this?
              >
              > Cheers,
              > Efe
              >

              If you go on YouTube, MrPete222 AKA TubalCain has a good drill bit
              tutorial in three parts. Well worth spending a bit of time watching.
              He mentions a few references, but the Machinery Handbook and the Morse
              Pocket Reference (for drill bits) are really good resources.
            • efe Eren
              Dear All, Thanks very much for your kind and valuable responds. I looked through all emails and links provided. However, they re different than my question.
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 5, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear All,

                Thanks very much for your kind and valuable responds. I looked through all emails and links provided. However, they're different than my question. Maybe it was my fault and couldn't explain clearly.

                I am not interested in reshaping or regrinding. I would like to learn the manufacturing data of drill bit from a cylindrical blank. as you know cylindrical blank is machined by grinding. first, shaping of flute; second, the shaping of cutting edge. at this point I would like the data related to this grinding operations.

                let's take 8 mm diameter 118 degree point angle, 30 degree helix with 2 cutting edges twist drill as an example. what type and diamension of grind is used for shaping of the helix flute part? similar to this, similar data for the second drill to shape cutting edges. How I can manufacture drill bit and how I can make the 3D model of drill bit?

                Best Regards
                Efe
              • o1bigtenor
                ... Your question is like asking a company for its trade secrets. If you bought a grinder from say Junkers or Walter or any of the other at least 5 others who
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 5, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:44 AM, efe Eren <efe_eren@...> wrote:
                  > Dear All,
                  >
                  > Thanks very much for your kind and valuable responds. I looked through all emails and links provided. However, they're different than my question. Maybe it was my fault and couldn't explain clearly.
                  >
                  > I am not interested in reshaping or regrinding. I would like to learn the manufacturing data of drill bit from a cylindrical blank. as you know cylindrical blank is machined by grinding. first, shaping of flute; second, the shaping of cutting edge. at this point I would like the data related to this grinding operations.
                  >
                  > let's take 8 mm diameter 118 degree point angle, 30 degree helix with 2 cutting edges twist drill as an example. what type and diamension of grind is used for shaping of the helix flute part? similar to this, similar data for the second drill to shape cutting edges. How I can manufacture drill bit and how I can make the 3D model of drill bit?
                  >
                  Your question is like asking a company for its trade secrets.

                  If you bought a grinder from say Junkers or Walter or any of the other
                  at least 5 others who make high end grinders - - they might give you
                  some starting points. Then it would be up to you to find tune things
                  doing what you want to do to find what works. Between the machine
                  people and the tooling people (all your grinding supplies) they would
                  help - - to a certain point.

                  You question - although it is a simple one- has NO simple answer. Much
                  more detail is needed. This detail would include bit materials,
                  drilling power available, material being drilled, expected life of the
                  cutting edges, regrindability just to start with. I am also think of
                  another 3 or 4 other things to add to the list but these first ones
                  need answering first.

                  The easiest way to make a 3D model of the bit you want might be to buy
                  a good quality bit and digitize it.

                  So - - what answers do YOU have?

                  Darald
                • DennisF MacIntyre
                  Dear Group      Following this thread has been quite interesting. It also made me ponder the process and could the drill bit be shaped by pressure much
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 5, 2010
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                    Dear Group
                         Following this thread has been quite interesting. It also made me ponder
                    the process and could the drill bit be shaped by pressure much like the groove
                    is pressed near the ends of some six inch pipe I have seen?


                    keep smiling

                    dennis mac
                  • o1bigtenor
                    ... If you are using quality materials for your drill bits probably no. It is not that difficult to use plastic deformation on many steels. Now when you start
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 5, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 3:53 PM, DennisF MacIntyre <a1g2r3i@...> wrote:
                      > Dear Group
                      >      Following this thread has been quite interesting. It also made me ponder
                      > the process and could the drill bit be shaped by pressure much like the groove
                      > is pressed near the ends of some six inch pipe I have seen?
                      >
                      If you are using quality materials for your drill bits probably no. It
                      is not that difficult to use plastic deformation on many steels. Now
                      when you start talking about HSS or carbide - more than a little
                      difficult!!

                      Darald
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