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Re: [multimachine] Re: New concrete roller carriage design/QUICK!

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  • Shannon DeWolfe
    Pat, I agree with folks who have reservations about using rollers on the pipe ways. Yeomans s design used large bearing surfaces in an arc around the pipe
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 14, 2010
    Pat,

    I agree with folks who have reservations about using rollers on the pipe
    ways. Yeomans's design used large bearing surfaces in an arc around the
    pipe ways. The bearing was self cleaning; that is to say, the bearings
    would push debris along the ways until the debris fell off to one side.
    A roller against a pipe creates a very small contact point. I think that
    any chips or debris on the ways will cause the carriage to lift as it
    rolls over it. I cannot think of a way to lock the carriage in place.

    I had a thought about how to manage a large heavy carriage when we first
    began talking about concrete for a carriage built as Yeomans's lathe
    with the half-round saddles. I never posted it because it would require
    a compressor. I do not think it would require very high pressure.
    However, it would definitely require a massive volume of air. Maybe
    several vacuum cleaner motors could be employed?

    Have you ever played air hockey? I think the same principle could be
    used to "float" the carriage. This can be done by drilling into the
    saddles. One hole drilled through and fitted to supply air.

    That may be all that is required. But, if a partial seal between the
    ways and the saddles is found to be necessary I am sure something can be
    devised.

    When the carriage is to be moved, pressurize the system. Want to lock
    down the carriage? Turn the air off. The amount of lift would depend on
    the pressure and volume of the air supplied and the seal between the
    saddle and the way. I think very minute lift could be achieved with
    tight control of the air supply.

    If using a lead screw, guide pins could be used to eliminate pitch and
    yaw. The guides could be as simple as set screws with rounded ends
    installed at each corner of the carriage and brought into contact with
    the ways after the carriage is lifted.

    I think it will work. I don't know that though. It would take a test bed
    to try it out. I'll put it in my queue of projects. ;-)

    I don't know if the group accepts attachments but I have attached a
    simplified drawing of the idea. If it doesn't go through I will post it
    later; too busy until way after dark.

    Regards,

    Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
    --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.


    > One thing to remember is that ANY swarf which sticks to the ways will
    > push it out of alignment, so chips are not your friend here and, while
    > friction bearings can wipe the swarf off the ways, rolling bearings can
    > not. Wipers MUST be included in the design.
  • Pat
    Thanks Lance, Bill and Dave I assumed the use of a ways support bar as was shown in the original sketch but forgot to draw it in. It will definitely will be
    Message 2 of 17 , Aug 14, 2010
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      Thanks Lance, Bill and Dave

      I assumed the use of a ways support bar as was shown in the original sketch but forgot to draw it in. It will definitely will be there!

      I tried to keep the drawing simple and understandable so I left out the vital way wipers, carriage lock and disengage-able lead screw. I draw so poorly that these will be hard to show on a projection screen but I will try.

      Since the carriage rollers are removable, they could (and should eventually) be modified with "v" shaped rollers added at the ends.

      Carriage hold down rollers should be in the "options" folder but weighted carriage designs were used for many years. It would take a big operator error to actually lift up a 130 pound carriage (I think).

      A square concrete slab fitting between the ways is not the best carriage shape but it would work until a better one would be needed.

      Pat

      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, "David G. LeVine" <dlevine@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 08/13/2010 12:07 PM, Pat wrote:
      > > I think that this would work on both a MM and a Yeomans/MM BUT if you see something wrong or something that could be better, DON'T HESITATE TO TELL ME! Quickly!! I have a new how to build book and my first powerpoint presentation due in a few days
      > >
      > > Pat
      > >
      >
      > A couple of things:
      >
      > Cylindrical, round rollers will tend to be single point contact.
      >
      > V shaped rollers would tend to be a better choice, at least on the side
      > by the apron, they will self center just like prismatic ways, and will
      > have two points of contact, reducing point load forces. Shock loads can
      > brinell the ways with point contact, this is why most lathes do not use
      > ball or roller way bearings against the ways.
      >
      > Look at http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/hblb/hblb.html for one good
      > approach to real linear bearings.
      >
      > There is no protection from something lifting the carriage except the
      > weight of the carriage itself. An extra apron side and far side roller
      > on the bottom might be useful.
      >
      > You did not support the pipe ways, this will mean they must be much
      > heavier if they are not to sag so far as to ruin the accuracy. Support
      > wins in three ways:
      >
      > 1. The ways won't sag as much
      > 2. They can be lighter (hence cheaper)
      > 3. The resonance (hence chatter) is at a much higher frequency,
      > making damping more effective.
      >
      > Filling (with E/G or non-shrinking grout) the pipes will handle
      > damping. Even rigid foam will help a lot.
      >
      > Pipe is not very accurately made, DOM would be better, TG&P shafting
      > would be better yet. For the scrounger, hydraulic piston shafts are
      > good, straight and wear well.
      >
    • Pat Delany
      Thanks Shannon Most all my ideas are really meant for the developing world. The more I think of it, the harder a rolling v shape would be to make even. It
      Message 3 of 17 , Aug 14, 2010
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        Thanks Shannon
        Most all my ideas are really meant for the developing world.  The more I think of it, the harder a rolling "v" shape would be to make even. It could be like shortening the legs of a table to level it! To compensate for wear on my original idea the way bars could be rotated a little and equal but light cuts could be taken off the roller bars/pipes. A half hour job versus an almost impossible one.

        Pat


        From: Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...>
        To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, August 14, 2010 10:15:22 AM
        Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: New concrete roller carriage design/QUICK! [1 Attachment]

         

        Pat,

        I agree with folks who have reservations about using rollers on the pipe
        ways. Yeomans's design used large bearing surfaces in an arc around the
        pipe ways. The bearing was self cleaning; that is to say, the bearings
        would push debris along the ways until the debris fell off to one side.
        A roller against a pipe creates a very small contact point. I think that
        any chips or debris on the ways will cause the carriage to lift as it
        rolls over it. I cannot think of a way to lock the carriage in place.

        I had a thought about how to manage a large heavy carriage when we first
        began talking about concrete for a carriage built as Yeomans's lathe
        with the half-round saddles. I never posted it because it would require
        a compressor. I do not think it would require very high pressure.
        However, it would definitely require a massive volume of air. Maybe
        several vacuum cleaner motors could be employed?

        Have you ever played air hockey? I think the same principle could be
        used to "float" the carriage. This can be done by drilling into the
        saddles. One hole drilled through and fitted to supply air.

        That may be all that is required. But, if a partial seal between the
        ways and the saddles is found to be necessary I am sure something can be
        devised.

        When the carriage is to be moved, pressurize the system. Want to lock
        down the carriage? Turn the air off. The amount of lift would depend on
        the pressure and volume of the air supplied and the seal between the
        saddle and the way. I think very minute lift could be achieved with
        tight control of the air supply.

        If using a lead screw, guide pins could be used to eliminate pitch and
        yaw. The guides could be as simple as set screws with rounded ends
        installed at each corner of the carriage and brought into contact with
        the ways after the carriage is lifted.

        I think it will work. I don't know that though. It would take a test bed
        to try it out. I'll put it in my queue of projects. ;-)

        I don't know if the group accepts attachments but I have attached a
        simplified drawing of the idea. If it doesn't go through I will post it
        later; too busy until way after dark.

        Regards,

        Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
        --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.

        > One thing to remember is that ANY swarf which sticks to the ways will
        > push it out of alignment, so chips are not your friend here and, while
        > friction bearings can wipe the swarf off the ways, rolling bearings can
        > not. Wipers MUST be included in the design.


      • keith gutshall
        Hello Shannon  I do not think you need the air to move the carriage. If the surfaces are smooth  and lubricated they will move easy.    Machineing is not
        Message 4 of 17 , Aug 14, 2010
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          Hello Shannon
           I do not think you need the air to move the carriage. If the surfaces are smooth
           and lubricated they will move easy.
           
           Machineing is not just moveing a part of the machine around, it is controling
           where the tool  is in each axis of movement.
           Keith
          Deep Run Portage
          Back Shop
          " The Lizard Works"

          --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...> wrote:

          From: Shannon DeWolfe <sdewolfe@...>
          Subject: Re: [multimachine] Re: New concrete roller carriage design/QUICK! [1 Attachment]
          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 10:15 AM

           
          Pat,

          I agree with folks who have reservations about using rollers on the pipe
          ways. Yeomans's design used large bearing surfaces in an arc around the
          pipe ways. The bearing was self cleaning; that is to say, the bearings
          would push debris along the ways until the debris fell off to one side.
          A roller against a pipe creates a very small contact point. I think that
          any chips or debris on the ways will cause the carriage to lift as it
          rolls over it. I cannot think of a way to lock the carriage in place.

          I had a thought about how to manage a large heavy carriage when we first
          began talking about concrete for a carriage built as Yeomans's lathe
          with the half-round saddles. I never posted it because it would require
          a compressor. I do not think it would require very high pressure.
          However, it would definitely require a massive volume of air. Maybe
          several vacuum cleaner motors could be employed?

          Have you ever played air hockey? I think the same principle could be
          used to "float" the carriage. This can be done by drilling into the
          saddles. One hole drilled through and fitted to supply air.

          That may be all that is required. But, if a partial seal between the
          ways and the saddles is found to be necessary I am sure something can be
          devised.

          When the carriage is to be moved, pressurize the system. Want to lock
          down the carriage? Turn the air off. The amount of lift would depend on
          the pressure and volume of the air supplied and the seal between the
          saddle and the way. I think very minute lift could be achieved with
          tight control of the air supply.

          If using a lead screw, guide pins could be used to eliminate pitch and
          yaw. The guides could be as simple as set screws with rounded ends
          installed at each corner of the carriage and brought into contact with
          the ways after the carriage is lifted.

          I think it will work. I don't know that though. It would take a test bed
          to try it out. I'll put it in my queue of projects. ;-)

          I don't know if the group accepts attachments but I have attached a
          simplified drawing of the idea. If it doesn't go through I will post it
          later; too busy until way after dark.

          Regards,

          Mr. Shannon DeWolfe
          --I've taken to using Mr. because my name misleads folks on the WWW. I am a 54 year old fat man.

          > One thing to remember is that ANY swarf which sticks to the ways will
          > push it out of alignment, so chips are not your friend here and, while
          > friction bearings can wipe the swarf off the ways, rolling bearings can
          > not. Wipers MUST be included in the design.

        • David G. LeVine
          ... Actually, Keith, air bearings can result in a very precise machine, BUT the bearings must be opposed or the accuracy goes away. Commonly a tiny gap and
          Message 5 of 17 , Aug 15, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            On 08/14/2010 10:42 PM, keith gutshall wrote:
            Hello Shannon
             I do not think you need the air to move the carriage. If the surfaces are smooth
             and lubricated they will move easy.
             
             Machineing is not just moveing a part of the machine around, it is controling
             where the tool  is in each axis of movement.
             Keith
            Deep Run Portage
            Back Shop
            " The Lizard Works"

            Actually, Keith, air bearings can result in a very precise machine, BUT the bearings must be opposed or the accuracy goes away.  Commonly a tiny gap and high pressure air results in incredibly good precision at (relatively) low cost, but contaminants are very big problems since the gaps are so small.

            Do a YouTube search for "Air Bearing" (without quotes) as there are a lot of examples.
          • Lance
            Pat your rigmatch e-mail address has been stolen by someone using an Iran web domain. All the links go to Iranian web sites. lance ++++ See copy below: 
            Message 6 of 17 , Aug 17, 2010
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              Pat your rigmatch e-mail address has been stolen
              by someone using an Iran web domain.

              All the links go to Iranian web sites.

              lance
              ++++
              See copy below:


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            • Donald H Locker
              Message 7 of 17 , Aug 17, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                The same spammer hit other groups I'm in (LTspice, e.g.) Yahoo! is seriously broken.

                Donald.
                --
                "Plain Text" email -- it's an accessibility issue
                () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
                /\ ascii ribbon campaign - <www.asciiribbon.org>

                ----- Original Message -----

                > From: "Lance" <gbof@...>
                > To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:40:45 PM
                > Subject: [multimachine] To Pat
                >
                > Pat your rigmatch e-mail address has been stolen
                > by someone using an Iran web domain.
                >
                >
                > All the links go to Iranian web sites.
                >
                >
                > lance
                > ++++
                > See copy below:

                DON'T DO THIS!!! If they are bad links, delete them! It's bad enough to have them appear once, now everyone has multiple copies, some from a trusted member. Jeez.

                >
                >

                [B.S. thrown on the heap]
              • Lance
                I am sorry to have posted the bad links. I thought I was sending to Pat directly. My bad. DO NOT USE, COPY, CLICK, PASTE ANY OF THOSE LINKS. TRASH THEM. lance
                Message 8 of 17 , Aug 17, 2010
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                  I am sorry to have posted the bad links.
                  I thought I was sending to Pat directly.

                  My bad.

                  DO NOT USE, COPY, CLICK, PASTE ANY OF THOSE LINKS.

                  TRASH THEM.

                  lance
                  ++++
                  On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:54 PM, Donald H Locker wrote:

                  See copy below:


                  DON'T DO THIS!!!  If they are bad links, delete them!  It's bad enough to have them appear once, now everyone has multiple copies, some from a trusted member.  Jeez.





                  [B.S. thrown on the heap]


                • Pat Delany
                  ________________________________ From: Lance To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 9:20:36 PM Subject: Re:
                  Message 9 of 17 , Aug 17, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment



                    From: Lance <gbof@...>
                    To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 9:20:36 PM
                    Subject: Re: [multimachine] To Pat

                     

                    I am sorry to have posted the bad links.

                    I thought I was sending to Pat directly.

                    My bad.

                    DO NOT USE, COPY, CLICK, PASTE ANY OF THOSE LINKS.

                    TRASH THEM.

                    lance
                    ++++
                    On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:54 PM, Donald H Locker wrote:

                    See copy below:


                    DON'T DO THIS!!!  If they are bad links, delete them!  It's bad enough to have them appear once, now everyone has multiple copies, some from a trusted member.  Jeez.





                    [B.S. thrown on the heap]



                  • Pat
                    The web seems to generate some new scam every few minutes. Pat
                    Message 10 of 17 , Aug 17, 2010
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                      The web seems to generate some new scam every few minutes.

                      Pat

                      --- In multimachine@yahoogroups.com, Lance <gbof@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I am sorry to have posted the bad links.
                      > I thought I was sending to Pat directly.
                      >
                      > My bad.
                      >
                      > DO NOT USE, COPY, CLICK, PASTE ANY OF THOSE LINKS.
                      >
                      > TRASH THEM.
                      >
                      > lance
                      > ++++
                      > On Aug 17, 2010, at 9:54 PM, Donald H Locker wrote:
                      >
                      > >> See copy below:
                      > >
                      > > DON'T DO THIS!!! If they are bad links, delete them! It's bad
                      > > enough to have them appear once, now everyone has multiple copies,
                      > > some from a trusted member. Jeez.
                      > >
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > [B.S. thrown on the heap]
                      >
                    • David G. LeVine
                      ... That long? About 1/2-2/3 of the email I get is spam.
                      Message 11 of 17 , Aug 18, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On 08/17/2010 10:46 PM, Pat wrote:
                        > The web seems to generate some new scam every few minutes.
                        >
                        > Pat
                        >

                        That long? About 1/2-2/3 of the email I get is spam.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.