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Re: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine

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  • keith gutshall
    Hello Michael I am not so much building a MM, I am working on Pat s two block  lathe concept.  The photos of the testbeds are parts that I am testing for the
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 31, 2009
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      Hello Michael
      I am not so much building a MM, I am working on Pat's two block
       lathe concept.
       The photos of the testbeds are parts that I am testing for the machine.
       I try to use simple design that can be built with a minimum amount of
       tools.
       
       Keith

      Deep Run Portage
      Back Shop
      " The Lizard Works"

      --- On Sat, 10/31/09, Charles Couch <cmichaelcouch@...> wrote:

      From: Charles Couch <cmichaelcouch@...>
      Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine
      To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 3:19 PM

       
      Drpshops:

      That was a VERY USEFUL folder of photos. Maybe the moderator would recommend new members go there first from the home page group description text as it teaches quite a lot just by viewing all those photos. Practically a complete course in photos on bootstrapping a multimachine.

      I almost feel I could build one now, and I'm a real klutz when it comes to building things. I recommend anyone who hasn't see these photos in the Drp Shop 1 folder should go now and look at them. And all newbies should be referred there first thing.

      Michael Couch

      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
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    • Bruce Bellows
      We seem to have a fair number of members currently looking for machining principals information. This link
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 1, 2009
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        We seem to have a fair number of members currently looking for machining principals information. This link http://techtv. mit.edu/genres/ 24-how-to/ videos/144- machine-shop- 8 was posted back in April by Pat and has excellent beginner level machining videos.
        Also if you go to our own group home page and look in the files section and the links section you will probably find one of the largest databases of older machining and machine tool info anywhere on the internet. All compiled in one place by the members of this group. I'd also recommend that people download the pdf files from the Model Engineering file in the links section.
         
        Bruce
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 3:19 PM
        Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine

         

        Drpshops:

        That was a VERY USEFUL folder of photos. Maybe the moderator would recommend new members go there first from the home page group description text as it teaches quite a lot just by viewing all those photos. Practically a complete course in photos on bootstrapping a multimachine.

        I almost feel I could build one now, and I'm a real klutz when it comes to building things. I recommend anyone who hasn't see these photos in the Drp Shop 1 folder should go now and look at them. And all newbies should be referred there first thing.

        Michael Couch

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      • keith gutshall
        Hello Michael You right about the stuff I build, it is simple to constuct.  I just use tool that most can get at the local hardware store.    The spindle in
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 2, 2009
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          Hello Michael
          You right about the stuff I build, it is simple to constuct.
           I just use tool that most can get at the local hardware store.
           
           The spindle in the metal lathe (testbed #2-#3 in the photos) is a piece
           of 2 in Sch# 40 pipe from the local hardware store.
           I put it in a wood turning lathe I was building, useing it as a bootstrap lathe .
           I used a file to get it to size to fit the bearing I had.
           The pipe has a large,thick flange screwed on the pipe to hold the chuck.
           
           A boot strap lathe does not heed to be fancy, jus a couple of bearing
          and a shaft, with soomthing to hold the work.
           
           A 2x8 with a headstock mounted in and a tailstock would be good enough
           to make  a pipe spindle for a larger machine.
           
           I had no shop when I started ,just kind of built as I went.
           
           Keith

          Deep Run Portage
          Back Shop
          " The Lizard Works"

          --- On Sat, 10/31/09, Charles Couch <cmichaelcouch@...> wrote:

          From: Charles Couch <cmichaelcouch@...>
          Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine
          To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, October 31, 2009, 3:19 PM

           
          Drpshops:

          That was a VERY USEFUL folder of photos. Maybe the moderator would recommend new members go there first from the home page group description text as it teaches quite a lot just by viewing all those photos. Practically a complete course in photos on bootstrapping a multimachine.

          I almost feel I could build one now, and I'm a real klutz when it comes to building things. I recommend anyone who hasn't see these photos in the Drp Shop 1 folder should go now and look at them. And all newbies should be referred there first thing.

          Michael Couch

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail. yahoo.com

        • Evan Burroughs
          Sailing faster than the wind For those that have never sailed or raced sailing vessels you might wish to look at points of sail on wikipedia to get a basic
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 3, 2009
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            Sailing faster than the wind
             
            For those that have never sailed or raced sailing vessels you might wish to look at "points of sail" on wikipedia to get a basic understanding and then go from there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_sail  I tried to find the term "jibing downwind" that was mentioned earlier and can find no such term so don't know what the author meant.
             
            Regards,
             
            Evan
            -----Original Message-----
            From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Charles Couch
            Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:53 AM
            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine

            All:

            I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super 3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file?

            Burce:

            Thanks for answering my questions. Can you post a link or tell me where to find the Cole Drill info unless it is in the files and photo sections, I'll look in the photo and files section anyway?

            Sailing faster than the wind:

            My take on this is that because of the large surface area of the sail and the forces of the wind DRAFT PULLING on this huge sail area, if the hull drag is low enough, there is enough force available at the mast to PULL the boat faster than the wind is moving. Also, the apparent wind direction changes accordingly. It is the same principle that makes planes fly. Is this not right?

            Michael Couch
          • Charles Couch
            All: I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super 3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file? Burce: Thanks for answering my
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 3, 2009
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              All:

              I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super 3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file?

              Burce:

              Thanks for answering my questions. Can you post a link or tell me where to find the Cole Drill info unless it is in the files and photo sections, I'll look in the photo and files section anyway?

              Sailing faster than the wind:

              My take on this is that because of the large surface area of the sail and the forces of the wind DRAFT PULLING on this huge sail area, if the hull drag is low enough, there is enough force available at the mast to PULL the boat faster than the wind is moving. Also, the apparent wind direction changes accordingly. It is the same principle that makes planes fly. Is this not right?

              Michael Couch

              __________________________________________________
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              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Donald H Locker
              Jibing downwind involves sailing at a point above directly downwind (a very broad reach) and using the aerodynamic forces to go downwind faster than the wind
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 3, 2009
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                Jibing downwind involves sailing at a point above directly downwind (a very broad reach) and using the aerodynamic forces to go downwind faster than the wind would drive the boat if it were to sail directly downwind. After traveling a distance, you have to jibe to get back to the rhumb line (the direct line from initial location to destination.) It's just like tacking upwind, but you're doing it downwind and the boat is jibing, (where the wind crosses the stern) not tacking (where the wind crosses the bow.) If you are going directly downwind, the relative velocity between the air and the sail goes to zero as the boat reaches the same speed as the wind, then the relative wind velocity will _reverse_, tending to decelerate the boat unless it were sailed very skillfully :)

                For Mr Couch, it doesn't have much to do with the sail area (though you need a fair bit of it to really sail - IIRC, you can get a max of about 1HP of drive power per square foot of sail at 35MPH wind speed.) It has to do with the force vectors applied to the boat by the wind on the sails and by the water on the underwater foils (primarily keel and rudder.) Squeeze a watermelon seed between your fingers and watch it squirt away in a direction nearly perpendicular to the applied forces for a closer-to-home example.

                It works.
                Donald.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Evan Burroughs" <n7ifj@...>
                To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2009 9:47:27 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                Subject: [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                Sailing faster than the wind

                For those that have never sailed or raced sailing vessels you might wish to
                look at "points of sail" on wikipedia to get a basic understanding and then
                go from there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_sail I tried to find
                the term "jibing downwind" that was mentioned earlier and can find no such
                term so don't know what the author meant.

                Regards,

                Evan
                -----Original Message-----
                From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com]On
                Behalf Of Charles Couch
                Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:53 AM
                To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine




                All:

                I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super
                3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file?

                Burce:

                Thanks for answering my questions. Can you post a link or tell me
                where to find the Cole Drill info unless it is in the files and photo
                sections, I'll look in the photo and files section anyway?

                Sailing faster than the wind:

                My take on this is that because of the large surface area of the
                sail and the forces of the wind DRAFT PULLING on this huge sail area, if the
                hull drag is low enough, there is enough force available at the mast to PULL
                the boat faster than the wind is moving. Also, the apparent wind direction
                changes accordingly. It is the same principle that makes planes fly. Is this
                not right?

                Michael Couch
              • Evan Burroughs
                Hi Andrew, You are right, in a fashion, it has been better than 30 years since I have done any sailing and it was recreational, not competitive! I well
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                  Hi Andrew,
                   
                  You are right, in a fashion, it has been better than 30 years since I have done any sailing and it was recreational, not competitive!  I well understand that the highest speed most sailboats can achieve is on a reach and that was the point I was interested in getting at.  I believe the discusion was about speed in general and not necessarily the distance made good along the desired course so the "jibing downwind" threw me because of the redundancy as a jibe is a only possible when changing tacks on a generally downwind course.
                   
                  Thank you for the clarifications for the many who are not sailors or who have been away from it for decades.
                   
                  Evan
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Andrew Mathison
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:41 AM
                  To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [?? Probable Spam] [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                  Then i doubt if you are a sailor....
                   
                  Going about means having the wind on the bow and changing it to the other bow (stbd to port or port to stbd),  the wind is only on the bow (or the beam) or dead ahead.
                   
                  When the wind is aft and you change direction bringing the wind from one side or the other, the wind coming at one point from directly astern, this is called Jibing, or sometimes Gybbing.....
                   
                  The boom, if not correctly pulled up tight at the start of the manoever, will suddenly go from one side to the other, taking any unlcky bystanders (who are tall enough!) with it, in a most painful manner......
                   
                  I was sure that most people would understand that, obviously not!!!
                   
                  The main difference  between jibing and going about is one is when sailing into the wind or with the wind ( downwind)......
                   
                  Multihulls often (mostly) do not follow the waterline length/speed restrictions that apply to most (but not all!!) Monohulls.......therefore Jibing downwind, in spite of actually sailing a far LONGER route is actually faster than sailing with the wind.
                   
                  Sailing with the wind  means that you can only achieve the speed of the wind, minus the drag of the hull in the water........max......
                   
                  Anyone who has ever sailed will know what I mean.
                   
                  Even a Monohull is faster on a reach, than sailing with the wind. (A reach is when the wind is around 90° to the direction required, give or take 15° or so (from memory!))......
                   
                  Look at the following links for more detailed infos:-
                   
                   
                   
                  For the downwind effect, you will most probably need to read specialized books.......but it is completely true.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  Andy
                   
                   
                • Charles Couch
                  All: Once we get a mental design that really cooks, it would be fantastic if someone could build it and make a video of the build. I bet that would be a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                    All:

                    Once we get a mental design that really cooks, it would be fantastic if someone could build it and make a video of the build. I bet that would be a wonderful aid to 3rd World Countries.

                    Donald:

                    Ahhhh, thanks for  the explanation. I get the seed example. Pinching between the rudder and the sail forces, cool.

                    Michael Couch

                  • Andrew Mathison
                    Then i doubt if you are a sailor.... Going about means having the wind on the bow and changing it to the other bow (stbd to port or port to stbd), the wind is
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                      Then i doubt if you are a sailor....
                       
                      Going about means having the wind on the bow and changing it to the other bow (stbd to port or port to stbd),  the wind is only on the bow (or the beam) or dead ahead.
                       
                      When the wind is aft and you change direction bringing the wind from one side or the other, the wind coming at one point from directly astern, this is called Jibing, or sometimes Gybbing.....
                       
                      The boom, if not correctly pulled up tight at the start of the manoever, will suddenly go from one side to the other, taking any unlcky bystanders (who are tall enough!) with it, in a most painful manner......
                       
                      I was sure that most people would understand that, obviously not!!!
                       
                      The main difference  between jibing and going about is one is when sailing into the wind or with the wind ( downwind)......
                       
                      Multihulls often (mostly) do not follow the waterline length/speed restrictions that apply to most (but not all!!) Monohulls.......therefore Jibing downwind, in spite of actually sailing a far LONGER route is actually faster than sailing with the wind.
                       
                      Sailing with the wind  means that you can only achieve the speed of the wind, minus the drag of the hull in the water........max......
                       
                      Anyone who has ever sailed will know what I mean.
                       
                      Even a Monohull is faster on a reach, than sailing with the wind. (A reach is when the wind is around 90° to the direction required, give or take 15° or so (from memory!))......
                       
                      Look at the following links for more detailed infos:-
                       
                       
                       
                      For the downwind effect, you will most probably need to read specialized books.......but it is completely true.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Andy
                       
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:47 PM
                      Subject: [?? Probable Spam] [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                       

                      Sailing faster than the wind
                       
                      For those that have never sailed or raced sailing vessels you might wish to look at "points of sail" on wikipedia to get a basic understanding and then go from there. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Points_of_ sail  I tried to find the term "jibing downwind" that was mentioned earlier and can find no such term so don't know what the author meant.
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Evan
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: multimachine@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:multimachin e@yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Charles Couch
                      Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:53 AM
                      To: multimachine@ yahoogroups. com
                      Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine

                      All:

                      I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super 3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file?

                      Burce:

                      Thanks for answering my questions. Can you post a link or tell me where to find the Cole Drill info unless it is in the files and photo sections, I'll look in the photo and files section anyway?

                      Sailing faster than the wind:

                      My take on this is that because of the large surface area of the sail and the forces of the wind DRAFT PULLING on this huge sail area, if the hull drag is low enough, there is enough force available at the mast to PULL the boat faster than the wind is moving. Also, the apparent wind direction changes accordingly. It is the same principle that makes planes fly. Is this not right?

                      Michael Couch


                       
                      Greetings from
                       
                      Andy Mathison
                    • Andrew Mathison
                      I found what you needed! To quote:- Jibing is a less common technique than tacking, since a sailboat can sail straight downwind, whereas it cannot sail
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                        I found what you needed!
                         
                        To quote:-
                         
                        Jibing is a less common technique than tacking, since a sailboat can sail straight downwind, whereas it cannot sail directly into the wind and has to tack or sail a zig-zag course at alternating angles into the wind.However, many sailboats are significantly faster sailing on a broad reach than running (sailing straight downwind), so the increased speed of a zig-zag course of alternating broad reaches can make up for the extra distance it takes over a straight downwind course.
                         
                        I found it at:-
                         
                         
                        I hope this helps better than my explanation!!
                         
                        Regards
                         
                        Andy
                         
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 3:47 PM
                        Subject: [?? Probable Spam] [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                         

                        Sailing faster than the wind
                         
                        For those that have never sailed or raced sailing vessels you might wish to look at "points of sail" on wikipedia to get a basic understanding and then go from there. http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Points_of_ sail  I tried to find the term "jibing downwind" that was mentioned earlier and can find no such term so don't know what the author meant.
                         
                        Regards,
                         
                        Evan
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: multimachine@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:multimachin e@yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Charles Couch
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:53 AM
                        To: multimachine@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: [multimachine] Shopless Multimachine

                        All:

                        I hope someone is collecting all the best bits of info for a super 3rd World Bootstrap Shopless Multimachine file?

                        Burce:

                        Thanks for answering my questions. Can you post a link or tell me where to find the Cole Drill info unless it is in the files and photo sections, I'll look in the photo and files section anyway?

                        Sailing faster than the wind:

                        My take on this is that because of the large surface area of the sail and the forces of the wind DRAFT PULLING on this huge sail area, if the hull drag is low enough, there is enough force available at the mast to PULL the boat faster than the wind is moving. Also, the apparent wind direction changes accordingly. It is the same principle that makes planes fly. Is this not right?

                        Michael Couch


                         
                        Greetings from
                         
                        Andy Mathison
                      • Wes Jones
                        Thanks for chiming in Andrew. I wondered when someone with sailing experience would comment on this silliness. Best, wes On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:41:11 -0500,
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                          Thanks for chiming in Andrew. I wondered when someone with sailing
                          experience would comment on this silliness.

                          Best, wes




                          On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:41:11 -0500, Andrew Mathison
                          <andrewdavid.mathison@...> wrote:

                          > Then i doubt if you are a sailor....
                          >
                          > Going about means having the wind on the bow and changing it to the
                          > other bow (stbd to port or port to stbd), the wind is only on the bow
                          > (or the beam) or dead ahead.
                          >
                          > When the wind is aft and you change direction bringing the wind from
                          > one side or the other, the wind coming at one point from directly
                          > astern, this is called Jibing, or sometimes Gybbing.....

                          --
                          Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
                        • Terry Bee
                          As an ancient sailor...........don t forget a planing designed boat will go faster than a displacement designed boat.............Rolly Tasker had a blown up 8
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 4, 2009
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                            As an ancient sailor...........don't forget a planing designed boat will go faster than a displacement designed boat.............Rolly Tasker had a blown up 8 foot dingy around 70 foot (built in Welded Aluminium) called Siska and at one point heading from Fremantle to Sydney to attend the Sydney-Hobart hit 38 knots running free in the Australian bite. One of the blokes at the helm said it was extremely hairy.
                            He really upset the well established Yatchies in Aussie for many moons.
                            Anyhow enough blabbering
                            Terry

                            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                            From: n7ifj@...
                            Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 07:34:36 -0800
                            Subject: RE: [?? Probable Spam] [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind



                            Hi Andrew,
                             
                            You are right, in a fashion, it has been better than 30 years since I have done any sailing and it was recreational, not competitive!  I well understand that the highest speed most sailboats can achieve is on a reach and that was the point I was interested in getting at.  I believe the discusion was about speed in general and not necessarily the distance made good along the desired course so the "jibing downwind" threw me because of the redundancy as a jibe is a only possible when changing tacks on a generally downwind course.
                             
                            Thank you for the clarifications for the many who are not sailors or who have been away from it for decades.
                             
                            Evan
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: multimachine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:multimachine@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Andrew Mathison
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 9:41 AM
                            To: multimachine@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [?? Probable Spam] [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                            Then i doubt if you are a sailor....
                             
                            Going about means having the wind on the bow and changing it to the other bow (stbd to port or port to stbd),  the wind is only on the bow (or the beam) or dead ahead.
                             
                            When the wind is aft and you change direction bringing the wind from one side or the other, the wind coming at one point from directly astern, this is called Jibing, or sometimes Gybbing.....
                             
                            The boom, if not correctly pulled up tight at the start of the manoever, will suddenly go from one side to the other, taking any unlcky bystanders (who are tall enough!) with it, in a most painful manner......
                             
                            I was sure that most people would understand that, obviously not!!!
                             
                            The main difference  between jibing and going about is one is when sailing into the wind or with the wind ( downwind)......
                             
                            Multihulls often (mostly) do not follow the waterline length/speed restrictions that apply to most (but not all!!) Monohulls.......therefore Jibing downwind, in spite of actually sailing a far LONGER route is actually faster than sailing with the wind.
                             
                            Sailing with the wind  means that you can only achieve the speed of the wind, minus the drag of the hull in the water........max......
                             
                            Anyone who has ever sailed will know what I mean.
                             
                            Even a Monohull is faster on a reach, than sailing with the wind. (A reach is when the wind is around 90° to the direction required, give or take 15° or so (from memory!))......
                             
                            Look at the following links for more detailed infos:-
                             
                             
                             
                            For the downwind effect, you will most probably need to read specialized books.......but it is completely true.
                             
                            Regards
                             
                            Andy
                             
                             




                            Windows Live: Keep your friends up to date with what you do online.
                          • Andrew Mathison
                            I gave Caveats (cover your a**e statements!) on several points, because nothing is ever exact in this world! For example, some monohulls do not follow the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 5, 2009
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                              I gave "Caveats" (cover your a**e statements!) on several points, because nothing is ever exact in this world! For example, some monohulls do not follow the water line length rule (and a landlubber cannot see the shape of the hull when in the water, EVEN if he was informed enough to understand the differences!).
                               
                              Conversely, some older, heavily built early (Piver Trimarans for example, unless as good as completely empty, just sails and crew) Multihull designs, cannot sail faster downwind by jibing, eg. as they follow more the water line length speed rule.......
                               
                              As you point out fully correctly, some monohulls thatare designed to plane, can achieve much higher hull speeds and downwind jibing will speed up the overall speed on the required (rhrumb line?) course...
                               
                              Nothing is truly black and white....even B+W films are really  mostly shades of grey!!!
                               
                              Have a great day!
                               
                              Regards
                               
                              Andy
                              -------------------------------------------------------------------
                               
                              From: Terry Bee
                              Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 6:30 AM
                              Subject: [multimachine] RE:Sailing faster than the wind

                              As an ancient sailor...... .....don' t forget a planing designed boat will go faster than a displacement designed boat........ .....Rolly Tasker had a blown up 8 foot dingy around 70 foot (built in Welded Aluminium) called Siska and at one point heading from Fremantle to Sydney to attend the Sydney-Hobart hit 38 knots running free in the Australian bite. One of the blokes at the helm said it was extremely hairy.
                              He really upset the well established Yatchies in Aussie for many moons.
                              Anyhow enough blabbering
                              Terry


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