RE: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University
- What Hindu ancestry is being talked about? There is no such thing. Hindus of Bengal (probably the latest Hindus), and actually others in the rest of India, cannot boast of any abstract "Hindu" ancestry. Stop this nonsense piece of concocted "History of India" by James Mill, father of John Stuart Mill.
Most of Bengal's Hindus, Muslims Christians and Bouddha hail from the same cluster of anthropologically recognizable ethnic groups. Depending on the various areas of Bengal, Northern, South-Eastern, Southern, etc people mass converted to big religions like Hinduism or Islam within two or three centuries of each other.
I have been saying this over and over again. Yet the old colonial 'wrong' history keeps popping up.
Why are these people constantly talking of religion with such backward knowledge of history of their own land which they obstinately refuse to update?
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 14:22:11 -0700
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka University
To: email@example.comI totally agree with everything that Mr. Shah Deeldar wrote below.In fact, regarding hateful minds, I have been saying the same thing for many years. That is, a Muslim who hates innocent Hindus could not possibly stop there; he would find reasons to hate innocent Muslims also. The same goes to hateful minds of all varieties: Hindus, Christians, Jews, etc. Thus, hatred in any form should be shunned for a civilized and peaceful world. Hateful minds need to be re-educated and, if needed, punished. Hatred is hurtful not only to the immediate victims; it ultimately hurts the criminal group also; thus causing broad-based long-term damages to humanity.It is really too much of a shame for the intelligent human race to have hateful minds based upon nonsensical religious beliefs.Sukhamaya Bain=====================================================From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@...>
To: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityMuslims are not any exceptions to the typical human behavior. Any group of people would like to find some commonality or differences with other groups of people and fight the "common enemy". When they do not find any common enemy, they will find differences within the same group and fight the people who look different or behave differently. The exceptions are rare unless the group has different motives and agenda. You can easily test this by putting bunch of Muslims (or Hindus/Christians) in a village and let them interact for few months. Certain group of Muslims will look down on others even they pray to the same Allah.Yes, for some good or bad reason, people would like to be connected to the Arabian royal blood in order to be able to boast about their ancestry. That is because of their poor self confidence and education. I would agree with you about Pakistani Muslims hating more their Hindu ancestry than Bengali Muslims. New converts are always less tolerant to their past. The reason is obvious!The bottom line is that God is not a solution when people think their God is better and more powerful than other people' Gods. It is rather a refuge for certain scoundrels, who do not want to answer some tough questions. It is rather a business with no productivity except producing more illiterates for the society. To a small starving child, an "omnipotence" God has no value at all in comparison to a small piece of bread.-SDPS. Sorry for being little off topic."All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBSFrom: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...>
To: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityWhile I salute Dr. Das for his successful fight against a wrong trend, I must say that during my student life at Dhaka University Chemistry Department (1975-1981), an overwhelming majority of my professors were non-communal decent human beings of the Muslim background. In fact, I consider quite a few of them as the best teachers of my life. The clear concepts that I got from them made me increasingly interested in Chemistry. Most of the ones that I got a chance to mix with at a personal level were helpful and understanding.Unlike Dr. Das, I actually doubt if the Pakistani Muslims had more respect for their Hindu ancestry than the Bengali Muslims. The state of Pakistan during its entire lifetime (1947 to date) does not support what Dr. Das felt. I think one needs to mix intimately with people, while asserting his/her rights, to know their real character.Talking about Arabian ancestry, I think Bengali Muslims overall are too irrational when it comes to the looks, sounds and smells of their religion; but I doubt if they are worse than the Pakistani Muslims. Of course, there are exceptions to the overall picture.Sukhamaya Bain================================================From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityChemistry Department stopped awarding first class to any student bearing Hindu name since the 1965 war between India and Pakistan, the tradition continued till I changed it four years later. Most of my classmates agreed that I changed it by fighting the whole Department.
Most people of Pakistani origin I came across in my life were respectful of their Hindu ancestry. However, the story is different with Bengali Muslims. They think, their ancestors came from some place in the Arabian land.On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...> wrote:Not surprisingly, people who make this accusation against people like Ashutosh Mukherjee or Rabindranath Tagore did not answer my questions.Q. A. Rahman has addressed some of the questions, with a declaration that he does not consider himself as an accuser. However, his answers and analyses were either plain wrong or typical of the two-nation theorist imbeciles.Dr. Kamal Das has also made some comments. He reasoned that Muslims were not up to education, and were not expected to have a large share of teachers and students at Dhaka University during its early years.Now let me make some comprehensive points.Pakistan or not, if Hindus did not face the kind of discrimination, hatred, and barbaric atrocities that they did in East Bengal since 1947, if they did not leave East Bengal, the academic circle of any Bangladeshi university that would be worth calling “the Oxford of the East” would be dominated by Hindus over the Muslims even today. Let me give a few examples: 1) in my B. Sc. Honors class at the Dhaka University Chemistry Department, graduating in 1980, four students got the first class, and two of them were Hindus, 2) two years before us no one got the first class in Chemistry honors program from the university proper; only one student, a Hindu, got the first class from BM College in Barishal, 3) in our honors batch, the most distinguished scholar in the Science Faculty (the Kalinarayan Scholar) was a Hindu student from Physics. These are in spite of all the migration of mostly the elite class of Hindus from East Bengal beginning in 1947. The most sudden drop in the quality of Dhaka University was probably in 1947, when Hindu professors left en masse for India, and their void filled with unqualified and poorly qualified Muslims.Of course, Pakistan was not in the horizon in 1921. Thus, the establishment of Dhaka University in reality had nothing to do with higher education for the Muslims; because the Muslims were not expected to be the principal components of the university. People who suggest that Rabindranath Tagore opposed the establishment of Dhaka University because he was anti-Muslim have a hateful objective of dissociating the greatest Bangalee poet from Bangladesh.Now let me address a side point made by Q. A. Rahman. His point was that Pakistan was needed for breaking the Hindu domination in East Bengal. His argument was utterly foolish and hateful when he was indifferent to the fact of the migration of Hindus due to discrimination, hatred and barbaric atrocities in their home of centuries. He was essentially saying that it was OK to displace the Hindus for giving the Muslims some privilege.No, Muslims had to get themselves interested in real education in order to break the Hindu domination. Hatred can give a short-term gain, which Pakistan did for the Muslims. But look, for example, the elite of Bangladeshi Muslims who have a significant health problem go to India for treatment. Aren’t those Hindu doctors in India saving the elite Muslims of Bangladesh?Talking in terms of political domination, I do not think the Muslims needed Pakistan. Without Pakistan, Muslims would be dominating all of Bengal today; because democracy was inevitable, and because to be a voter one does not need to be very scholarly or rich. Of course, if that political domination was combined with the wisdom of promoting education, Muslims would have had their fair share of power in all respects in due course without the help of hatred.I would advise people like Mr. Rahman to wake up for progress for all people, especially for the Muslims. Sprouting madrasahs in Bangladesh like wild mushrooms in dirty soil, and promoting hateful religious stupidity will not help the Muslims; real education in humanities, science and technology will.Sukhamaya Bain======================================================From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...>
To: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:14 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityI have seen this allegation in the Bangladesh-centric internet forums over a period of many years. There seems to be a new generation of accusers lately. Instead of making any suggestion about why some people make this allegation against people like Ashutosh Mukherjee or Rabindranath Tagore, let me just ask a few questions.When Dhaka University was formed in 1921, was there any plan anywhere for the creation of Pakistan in 1947?There are several highly prestigious universities in the USA which are located at or near high black population areas. For example, the University of Chicago and Columbia University in New York City. How many percents of the professors and students of these universities are black?From 1921 to 1947 which religious group had more professors and students at Dhaka University, Muslims or Hindus?If there was no Pakistan, or if there was no displacement of Hindus from East Bengal due to the creation of Pakistan in 1947, which religious group would be dominating the academic circle of Dhaka University today, Muslims or Hindus?In the world, there are about 1.4 billion Muslims among the total population of about 7.0 billion. What are the comparisons between the Muslims and the other religious groups in terms of world-renowned scholars (an indication would be the Nobel Prize winners in all subjects but peace)?What is keeping the Muslims backward compared to all other significant religious groups?Let me wait for some fact-based and honest answers to the above six questions, and some intelligent amalgamations of those answers, preferably from the accusers, before I comment on the subject.Sukhamaya Bain====================================.
- Indeed, corruption is an intractable problem in Bangladesh. The country is really badly in need of a good dictator, or a team of good dictators, who would show no mercy to corruption. Of course, that dictator or group of dictators has to be honest.Teachers not teaching in the classroom to force students to go to them for private tutoring is an ultimate form of corruption in a society. I am not proposing to prohibit private tutoring for the teachers. But they should teach sincerely in the classroom first, so that the children of the poor have a chance to get educated. The system should fire teachers who are absent from the classroom, and who do not teach in the classroom. If teachers are corrupt in a society, what can be expected of their students and of the society in general?Of all segments of the society, teachers should be most rational, and least prone to prejudices based upon religions, ethnicities, sexes, regionalities, etc.Sukhamaya Bain========================================================From: qar <qrahman@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityThe First Class First position was not anyone’s personal property to give away. A decent professor does not ‘give grades’, he/she grades all his/her students fairly. I would not praise any professor for ‘giving grades’.
>>>>>>>> Agreed. Today minorities are not targeted like that. However another form of discrimination is taking place in most government run institutions. That is which political party a student belongs to. In Dhaka university teachers openly support political parties and run for offices. Student politics used to be a moral force in our history but today that has been hijacked by extortionists, looters and arrogant low lives in most parts.So in order to get good grade students have to do more than just study hard but they have to be "Nice" to their department chair and other teachers and support them in unethical practices (Like most teachers teaches at private universities beside public ones, Few fundamental research or papers etc).
Then you have political gangs hijacking the campus from genuine students. So good students do not feel motivated to aim to get selected in Dhaka University anymore. They want to either study in private universities or go abroad. Our country and people in it becomes the loser in the process.I share the frustration of Mr. Deeldar. I feel particularly frustrated about Bangladesh because of the recent trend of school teachers not teaching sincerely in the classroom. I feel so bad when a poor illiterate man from my village tells me that educating his children without private tutors is almost impossible!
energy out of us. All major political parties participate in it and nurture it. Shalom!>>>>>>>> Teachers live in this country and the ecosystem discourages us to follow laws or staying honest. The system most of the time goes against honest people or people who want to live a "Value based life". Not only a poor man face greater difficulty in current system even honest middle class people are shunned by the society in most parts. Private tutors are not the primary concern rather the rampant corruptions and how corrupt people gets away with it are bad examples in front of young men and women in our country. I mentioned this before but it's worth repeating. We have to work hard to establish rule of laws and capable institutions to protect people from being oppressed. Regardless of faith background majority population suffers from current system. This is not a statement against current political leaders rather an observation of how our colonial systems sucks positive=====================================================-----Original Message----- From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...> To: mukto-mona <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Tue, Jun 5, 2012 5:30 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The allegation of opposition to the establishment of Dhaka UniversityIf M. H. Khundkar was actually ‘against producing chemists for India’, as Mr. Chakrabarty has phrased, I would not call that ‘a great nationalist’ even with a ‘but ….’. I would not even ask, ‘why did he take Hindu students at all?’Of course, the phrase, ‘against producing chemists for India’, was really to mean “against producing Hindu chemists.” As I wrote earlier, Khundkar should have known better; he should have known why the Hindus migrated to India; he should have known, acknowledged, and tried to mitigate the persecution that was going on against religious minorities in Pakistan. He had no right to deny any competent Hindu student of the country admission to the department, nor did he have the right to give undue grades based upon anyone’s religious identity.Unlike Mr. Chakrabarty, I would not overly praise Khundkar for an isolated decent human gesture. You support a hateful system, and then provide an isolated gesture of compassion; that does not earn much praise in my book. Khundkar was like a VVIP in Pakistan with no expressed support for Bangladesh that I am aware of. He was probably important enough to the pro-Pakistan thinkers. Thus, I doubt if he was a target of the Pakistani military, or if anyone was likely to probe into who was hiding in his house. I still would probably praise him mildly for saving an innocent human being in a most dreadful environment. I am also willing to learn, if I do not know enough, about his position toward the independence of Bangladesh.‘Inspiring and wonderful’ to giving a First Class First position to a Hindu student; really! If we were to take unfair grading based upon prejudices as normal professorial behavior, then giving a First Class First position to a Hindu student would be ‘inspiring and wonderful’. Is unfair grading based upon prejudices Mr. Chakrabarty’s standard?The First Class First position was not anyone’s personal property to give away. A decent professor does not ‘give grades’, he/she grades all his/her students fairly. I would not praise any professor for ‘giving grades’.I share the frustration of Mr. Deeldar. I feel particularly frustrated about Bangladesh because of the recent trend of school teachers not teaching sincerely in the classroom. I feel so bad when a poor illiterate man from my village tells me that educating his children without private tutors is almost impossible!I also agree with Dr. Roy and Mr. Deeldar on the points of brain drain and mediocrity breeding mediocrity.Sukhamaya Bain.