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Re: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet

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  • a c
    THE RACING RULES OF SAILING 2005-2008 Including US SAILING Prescriptions pg. 55 Appendiix B-Windsurfing Competition Rules B8.4 Uncompleted
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 18, 2007
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      THE RACING RULES OF SAILING 2005-2008 Including US SAILING Prescriptions pg. 55     Appendiix B-Windsurfing Competition Rules              B8.4 Uncompleted Heat              When a heat cannot be completed,the points for the unscored places shall be added together and divided by the number of places in the heat. The resulting number of points,to the nearest tenth of a point(0.05 to be rounded upward), shall be given to each board entered in the heat .                                                           B8.5  Scoring a Final Series in Slalom  (a)   If three final races are completed ,a board's series score in the final shall be the total of her race scores excluding her worst score .Otherwise her series score shall be the total of her race scores .                                                                                         (b)                 A board that did not START, did not FINISH, retired after finishing or was disqualified from a final race shall be scored points equal to the total number of boards entered in the final .        

      Arden Anderson <ardenalan@...> wrote:
      Good points on the B-fleet Jeff. We're still hoping to hear more from the racers that would be racing in a new B-fleet if we implement one.
       
      I don't agree with changing a DNF value for A fleet. I do see how it can be frustrating to finish 80% of a race and get the same points as someone that finished only 10% of a race, but imagine if 3 people finish the race in full and now 3rd place only gets a few more points than everyone that simply started (but never finished) when that could have been a far bigger point difference (about a 10 point difference for the slalom races at Worthington this year, and a 14 point difference for the DamJam race you referred to). I think it is better to frustrate the person that didn't finish the entire course than to disappoint someone who did finish the entire course.
       
      I'm not sure how the IYRU rules on this are stated, but you made a good point about how DNF's can be scored relative to the number of starters. Can someone look this up to see how we could implement it? It would seem odd to me to award 2nd place points to all DNF's in the Dam Jam case presented, since that only gives a one point advantage to the only racer that sailed the entire course.
       
      As for time limits, that is always a tricky one. No matter what limit is set, there will always be some situation where the application of the rule doesn't fit the spirit of the rule. Instead, I would leave the time limit to the discretion of the RC on a race-by-race basis. This usually allows for something like a "popcorn" rule. When the length of time between finishers keeps growing and growing, effectively coming to a stop, the race is called and the remaining racers can either be given a DNF (a bit harsh given the MOWIND is about MOFUN), or scored as they are currently placed. We have done this on occasion with no hard feelings at Windpower races, particularly for Formula racers when the wind drops off.
       
      I think MOWIND does have guidelines on how long races should take, in terms of both the first finisher and the last finisher. Kevin may have this somewhere since I remember working with him on it last spring.
       
      Later,
      Arden

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Jeff Adamski <jadamski@usa. net>
      To: mowind@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:22:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet

      Jack,
      Great idea on the scoring. I think it also should apply to A-Fleet. The Iowa Dam Jam was a great example to that point. We raced 4 races, I won three of them. The 4th race I got blown off after rounding 5 of 7 marks. Only one person finished that race, and won the overall event, because of that finish.
      There needs to be a substantial difference between DNS (did not start) and DNF (did not finish) when the number of racers diminishes during an event. In boat racing the DNF is based on the number that raced that particular race, while the DNS is based on the number that are registered.
      As far as B-fleet goes, I don't like the idea of a B-Fleet. I think it splits things up too much. Also, when I finish a race, I usually sail back to those in the back of the pack and encourage and coach then. If they are finishing before, on their one lap, then I can't help them.
      I think if we could have a time limit after the 1st finisher, of say 15 min. or 20 min., then you could finish the racer where ever they are at that time. Saving time, giving them time to rest a bit between races, and still giving them something to shoot for, mainly finishing before the time limit. And allowing for coaching and encouragement by those that have finished already.
      Just my 2-cents.
      Jeff

      Jeff Adamski
      Wind 4 Life, LLC
      Windsurfing and Kiting Instruction
      PASA Certified
      Sail and Kite Repair
      jeff@wind4life. us
      763-441-1521
      612-309-3429 cell.



      ------ Original Message ------
      Received: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:17:46 PM CDT
      From: "Jack" <drjacksonwiley@ yahoo.com>
      To: mowind@yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet


      Thanks for posting Dan's comments. It is good to get as much input as
      possible.

      I like the idea of Sport Unlimited. We could then limit sport Men's
      to 8.5, and possibly sport Women's to 7.5. Anyone else could go into
      unlimited.

      I would also like to add another item for discussion regarding
      scoring. Sometimes for a sport fleet racer it is a challenge just to
      get across the starting line. I would like to recognize that by
      awarding a higher score than 1 for a Sport Fleet DNF. I think it is
      fair to award a racer points for beating everyone who opts to remain
      on the beach.

      I don't think this is necessary in the A-Fleet because those racers
      generally do not get more than one or two DNFs and they are often
      thrown out.





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    • Del Carpenter
      I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring system that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winner gets the lowest score, last place
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 1, 2007
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        I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring system
        that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winner gets the lowest
        score, last place gets the highest score. MOWIND uses a high point
        scoring system for winners, the winner gets the highest score, last
        place gets the lowest score. So, if we use the same principles as US
        Sailing for the situation mentioned below, the rules still need to be
        re-written for MOWIND to fit high point scoring for winners.

        Del


        On Sep 18, 2007, at 7:09 PM, a c wrote:

        > THE RACING RULES OF SAILING 2005-2008 Including US SAILING
        > Prescriptions pg. 55     Appendiix B-Windsurfing Competition
        > Rules              B8.4 Uncompleted Heat              When a heat
        > cannot be completed,the points for the unscored places shall be added
        > together and divided by the number of places in the heat. The
        > resulting number of points,to the nearest tenth of a point(0.05 to be
        > rounded upward), shall be given to each board entered in the heat
        > .                                                           B8.5 
        > Scoring a Final Series in Slalom  (a)   If three final races are
        > completed ,a board's series score in the final shall be the total of
        > her race scores excluding her worst score .Otherwise her series score
        > shall be the total of her race scores
        > .                                                                      
        >                    (b)                 A board that did not START, did
        > not FINISH, retired after finishing or was disqualified from a final
        > race shall be scored points equal to the total number of boards
        > entered in the final .        
        >
        > Arden Anderson <ardenalan@...> wrote:Good points on the B-fleet
        > Jeff. We're still hoping to hear more from the racers that would be
        > racing in a new B-fleet if we implement one.
        >>  
        >> I don't agree with changing a DNF value for A fleet. I do see how it
        >> can be frustrating to finish 80% of a race and get the same points as
        >> someone that finished only 10% of a race, but imagine if 3 people
        >> finish the race in full and now 3rd place only gets a few more points
        >> than everyone that simply started (but never finished) when that
        >> could have been a far bigger point difference (about a 10 point
        >> difference for the slalom races at Worthington this year, and a 14
        >> point difference for the DamJam race you referred to). I think it is
        >> better to frustrate the person that didn't finish the entire course
        >> than to disappoint someone who did finish the entire course.
        >>  
        >> I'm not sure how the IYRU rules on this are stated, but you made a
        >> good point about how DNF's can be scored relative to the number of
        >> starters. Can someone look this up to see how we could implement it?
        >> It would seem odd to me to award 2nd place points to all DNF's in the
        >> Dam Jam case presented, since that only gives a one point advantage
        >> to the only racer that sailed the entire course.
        >>  
        >> As for time limits, that is always a tricky one. No matter what limit
        >> is set, there will always be some situation where the application of
        >> the rule doesn't fit the spirit of the rule. Instead, I would leave
        >> the time limit to the discretion of the RC on a race-by-race basis.
        >> This usually allows for something like a "popcorn" rule. When the
        >> length of time between finishers keeps growing and growing,
        >> effectively coming to a stop, the race is called and the remaining
        >> racers can either be given a DNF (a bit harsh given the MOWIND is
        >> about MOFUN), or scored as they are currently placed. We have done
        >> this on occasion with no hard feelings at Windpower races,
        >> particularly for Formula racers when the wind drops off.
        >>  
        >> I think MOWIND does have guidelines on how long races should take, in
        >> terms of both the first finisher and the last finisher. Kevin may
        >> have this somewhere since I remember working with him on it last
        >> spring.
        >>  
        >> Later,
        >> Arden
        >>
        >> ----- Original Message ----
        >> From: Jeff Adamski <jadamski@...>
        >> To: mowind@yahoogroups.com
        >> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:22:24 PM
        >> Subject: Re: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet
        >>
        >> Jack,
        >> Great idea on the scoring. I think it also should apply to A-Fleet.
        >> The Iowa Dam Jam was a great example to that point. We raced 4 races,
        >> I won three of them. The 4th race I got blown off after rounding 5 of
        >> 7 marks. Only one person finished that race, and won the overall
        >> event, because of that finish.
        >> There needs to be a substantial difference between DNS (did not
        >> start) and DNF (did not finish) when the number of racers diminishes
        >> during an event. In boat racing the DNF is based on the number that
        >> raced that particular race, while the DNS is based on the number that
        >> are registered.
        >> As far as B-fleet goes, I don't like the idea of a B-Fleet. I think
        >> it splits things up too much. Also, when I finish a race, I usually
        >> sail back to those in the back of the pack and encourage and coach
        >> then. If they are finishing before, on their one lap, then I can't
        >> help them.
        >> I think if we could have a time limit after the 1st finisher, of say
        >> 15 min. or 20 min., then you could finish the racer where ever they
        >> are at that time. Saving time, giving them time to rest a bit between
        >> races, and still giving them something to shoot for, mainly finishing
        >> before the time limit. And allowing for coaching and encouragement by
        >> those that have finished already.
        >> Just my 2-cents.
        >> Jeff
        >>
        >> Jeff Adamski
        >> Wind 4 Life, LLC
        >> Windsurfing and Kiting Instruction
        >> PASA Certified
        >> Sail and Kite Repair
        >> jeff@wind4life. us
        >> 763-441-1521
        >> 612-309-3429 cell.
        >>
        >>
        >> ------ Original Message ------
        >> Received: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:17:46 PM CDT
        >> From: "Jack" <drjacksonwiley@ yahoo.com>
        >> To: mowind@yahoogroups. com
        >> Subject: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet
        >>
        >>
        >> Thanks for posting Dan's comments. It is good to get as much input as
        >> possible.
        >>
        >> I like the idea of Sport Unlimited. We could then limit sport Men's
        >> to 8.5, and possibly sport Women's to 7.5 . Anyone else could go
        >> into
        >> unlimited.
        >>
        >> I would also like to add another item for discussion regarding
        >> scoring. Sometimes for a sport fleet racer it is a challenge just to
        >> get across the starting line. I would like to recognize that by
        >> awarding a higher score than 1 for a Sport Fleet DNF. I think it is
        >> fair to award a racer points for beating everyone who opts to remain
        >> on the beach.
        >>
        >> I don't think this is necessary in the A-Fleet because those racers
        >> generally do not get more than one or two DNFs and they are often
        >> thrown out.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
        >> today!
        >
        > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
        > Yahoo! Games.
        >
        >
        >
      • Jeff & Bonnie Koeberl
        Here is the deal - we are promoting a regional race tour for MOWIND, and low point scoring would not provide a way to determine who won the tour. High point
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 2, 2007
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          Here is the deal - we are promoting a regional race tour for MOWIND,
          and low point scoring would not provide a way to determine who won the
          tour. High point scoring provides that. Thus, we need to determine
          how to manage high point scoring. The implementation we have now
          works, though certainly it can be tweaked to be improved as
          necessary. I recommend we determine a committee for MOWIND this year
          to propose changes if that committee can agree on improvements. We
          can use the voting feature of the Yahoo MOWIND group to accept or
          reject recommendation(s).

          Consider though other examples... US Windsurfing awards each
          participant in a NRT race 10 points for participation, plus one
          additional point for each person that they beat in their fleet. In
          that way they can support low point scoring, but apply high points for
          the tour. Personally, I don't think that option works as well as it
          provides lots of credit for attending regattas but little for doing
          well in a regatta. Our current implementation for MOWIND is weighted
          both for attendance as well as for overall performance.



          --- In mowind@yahoogroups.com, Del Carpenter <delcarpenter@...> wrote:
          >
          > I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring
          system
          > that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winner gets the
          lowest
          > score, last place gets the highest score.
        • - Woody -
          I would be in favour of having participants receive an automatic 10 points for attending (registering) at a regatta. This would award the ones who travel the
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 2, 2007
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            I would be in favour of having participants receive an automatic 10 points for attending (registering) at a regatta. This would award the ones who travel the most, and it would also work well with the MOWIND high point system.
             
            Woody


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jeff & Bonnie Koeberl <jeffkoeberl@...>
            Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 5:29 pm
            Subject: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet
            To: mowind@yahoogroups.com

            > Here is the deal - we are promoting a regional race tour for
            > MOWIND,
            > and low point scoring would not provide a way to determine who
            > won the
            > tour.  High point scoring provides that.  Thus, we
            > need to determine
            > how to manage high point scoring.  The implementation we
            > have now
            > works, though certainly it can be tweaked to be improved as
            > necessary.  I recommend we determine a committee for MOWIND
            > this year
            > to propose changes if that committee can agree on
            > improvements.  We
            > can use the voting feature of the Yahoo MOWIND group to accept
            > or
            > reject recommendation(s). 
            >
            > Consider though other examples...  US Windsurfing awards
            > each
            > participant in a NRT race 10 points for participation, plus one
            > additional point for each person that they beat in their fleet.
            > In
            > that way they can support low point scoring, but apply high
            > points for
            > the tour.  Personally, I don't think that option works as
            > well as it
            > provides lots of credit for attending regattas but little for
            > doing
            > well in a regatta.  Our current implementation for MOWIND
            > is weighted
            > both for attendance as well as for overall performance.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In mowind@yahoogroups.com, Del Carpenter
            > <delcarpenter@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring
            > system 
            > > that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winner gets the
            > lowest 
            > > score, last place gets the highest score. 
            >
            >
          • Kevin Gratton
            Suggestion, MoWind should form a committee to review the Present high point scoring system. They can then make a recommendation to the officers as to any
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 2, 2007
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              Suggestion,  MoWind should form a committee to review the Present high point scoring system.  They can then make a recommendation to the officers as to any needed changes.   I recommend Mike Fox and a representative from the Toledo race committee be involved.
               
              When MoWind was created, in I believe 1990,  a group of the top sailors in the region developed the high point scoring so we could score a series of regattas.  They also wanted to have a scoring system where points were accumulated as in NASCAR racing.  Something simple where anyone could figure out their total series score. The low point is not conducive to scoring a series of regattas.  The Tudor Watch Tour used the low point and had many issues with scoring the tour.  Nobody was happy!   So MoWind wanted to avoid those issues and come up with something that was fair and simple.  John Weiss, Ken Wruk, Mike Derr, Keith Speer, Melissa Spoerke, Steve VandeCorput, Marlin Meitzen, and myself and others were involved with that development, if I recall properly. 
               
              The current low point system can use .75 for 1st place or simply 1 point for 1st place.  It is the discretion of the race committee.  The 1-20 Nationals that Andy and Myself attended last weekend used 1 point for 1st place.  http://www.inland20.org/regattas/natsregatta.htm#By_registering  
               
              The rules below that Del has graciously provided are really for windsurfing Slalom heat racing.  The rules that would pertain to the type of course racing we do would be Appendix A.9      Those rules score DNS DNF and DSQ all the same.  (which I don't agree with)  But those are the US Sailing rules for scoring.  See the scores for the I-20 Nats.
               
              The original group the created High Point for MoWind wanted a scoring system that gave the same overall results for a single regatta that the Low point would (I believe something similar was already being used somewhere).  In a nutshell - the place you would get with Low Point would be the same as High Point. The current High Point does this.   They used 1 point for 1st place because they did not feel ONLY the first place finisher should be rewarded a special score.
              DNS and DSQ were rated the same 0 points.   They felt someone who started a race but did not finish DNF should get some credit. (which they didn't in low point).  So the DNF was awarded 1 point for starting.
               
              Then there was the issue of awarding values to regattas that had more attendance or that did more races.  It was generally felt that the regattas that had more racers or did more races should have more points than a small regatta or a regatta that only did a few races because of light wind or poor weather.
               
              After using the High Point scoring system for 17 years and doing the overall yearly MoWind scoring for a few years, I think the original committee did an outstanding job.  I feel they accomplished what they set out to do.  It took years to have the overall MoWind Yearly Results posted in a timely manner but we are doing it now.  We also, now have year end trophies!  I want to commend Jack Wiley for the time he put in to look over other scoring programs out there and develop the current program to the easy and fast level today.   I suggest anyone not taking advantage of the current MoWind scoring program to look it over, call Jack with questions and then try it.  Hopefully it can be enhanced in the future to have a current MoWind racer data base and automatically score the MoWind Yearly Overall Results.  Wouldn't it be nice if you were an active racer to just sign a waiver, provide your sail number and be registered?  No more redundant forms to fill out.
               
              Woody has a great point that is definitely worth looking into.  It's a great example of how the world is always changing and MoWind needs to flexible and change with the times and needs of it's racers.  My immediate dream is to get consistency with the scoring programs within MoWind.  Then move on and develop training or instruction programs at regattas or have separate events for promoting our GREAT SPORT.  (tip of the day - stay flexible or you'll get like me with age)
               
              Kevin   USA 8


              From: Del Carpenter [mailto:delcarpenter@...]
              Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:37 PM
              To: mowind@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet

              I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring system
              that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winner gets the lowest
              score, last place gets the highest score. MOWIND uses a high point
              scoring system for winners, the winner gets the highest score, last
              place gets the lowest score. So, if we use the same principles as US
              Sailing for the situation mentioned below, the rules still need to be
              re-written for MOWIND to fit high point scoring for winners.

              Del

              On Sep 18, 2007, at 7:09 PM, a c wrote:

              > THE RACING RULES OF SAILING 2005-2008 Including US SAILING
              > Prescriptions pg. 55     Appendiix B-Windsurfing
              Competition
              >
              Rules              B8.4 Uncompleted Heat              When a heat
              > cannot be completed,the points for the unscored places
              shall be added
              > together and divided by the number of places in the
              heat. The
              > resulting number of points,to the nearest tenth of a
              point(0.05 to be
              > rounded upward), shall be given to each board entered
              in the heat
              >
              .                                                           B8.5 
              > Scoring a Final Series in Slalom  (a)   If three final
              races are
              > completed ,a board's series score in the final shall be the
              total of
              > her race scores excluding her worst score .Otherwise her
              series score
              > shall be the total of her race scores
              >
              .                                                                      
              >
                                 (b)                 A board that did not START, did
              > not FINISH, retired after
              finishing or was disqualified from a final
              > race shall be scored points
              equal to the total number of boards
              > entered in the final
              .        
              >
              > Arden Anderson
              <ardenalan@yahoo. com> wrote:Good points on the B-fleet
              > Jeff. We're still hoping to hear more
              from the racers that would be
              > racing in a new B-fleet if we implement
              one.
              >>  
              >> I don't agree with changing a DNF value for
              A fleet. I do see how it
              >> can be frustrating to finish 80% of a race
              and get the same points as
              >> someone that finished only 10% of a
              race, but imagine if 3 people
              >> finish the race in full and now 3rd
              place only gets a few more points
              >> than everyone that simply started
              (but never finished) when that
              >> could have been a far bigger point
              difference (about a 10 point
              >> difference for the slalom
              races at Worthington this year, and a 14
              >> point difference for
              the DamJam race you referred to). I think it is
              >> better to frustrate
              the person that didn't finish the entire course
              >> than to disappoint
              someone who did finish the entire course.
              >>  
              >> I'm not
              sure how the IYRU rules on this are stated, but you made a
              >> good
              point about how DNF's can be scored relative to the number of
              >>
              starters. Can someone look this up to see how we could implement it?
              >> It would seem odd to me to award 2nd place points to all DNF's in
              the
              >> Dam Jam case presented, since that only gives a one point
              advantage
              >> to the only racer that sailed the entire
              course.
              >>  
              >> As for time limits, that is always a
              tricky one. No matter what limit
              >> is set, there will always be some
              situation where the application of
              >> the rule doesn't fit the spirit
              of the rule. Instead, I would leave
              >> the time limit to the
              discretion of the RC on a race-by-race basis.
              >> This usually allows
              for something like a "popcorn" rule. When the
              >> length of time
              between finishers keeps growing and growing,
              >> effectively coming to
              a stop, the race is called and the remaining
              >> racers can either be
              given a DNF (a bit harsh given the MOWIND is
              >> about MOFUN), or
              scored as they are currently placed. We have done
              >> this on occasion
              with no hard feelings at Windpower races,
              >> particularly for Formula
              racers when the wind drops off.
              >>  
              >> I think MOWIND
              does have guidelines on how long races should take, in
              >> terms of
              both the first finisher and the last finisher. Kevin may
              >> have this
              somewhere since I remember working with him on it last
              >>
              spring.
              >>  
              >> Later,
              >>
              Arden
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message ----
              >> From: Jeff
              Adamski <jadamski@usa. net>
              >> To:
              mowind@yahoogroups. com
              >>
              Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 4:22:24 PM
              >> Subject: Re: [mowind]
              Re: input on B-fleet
              >>
              >> Jack,
              >> Great idea on the
              scoring. I think it also should apply to A-Fleet.
              >> The Iowa Dam Jam
              was a great example to that point. We raced 4 races,
              >> I won three of
              them. The 4th race I got blown off after rounding 5 of
              >> 7 marks.
              Only one person finished that race, and won the overall
              >> event,
              because of that finish.
              >> There needs to be a substantial difference
              between DNS (did not
              >> start) and DNF (did not finish) when the
              number of racers diminishes
              >> during an event. In boat racing the DNF
              is based on the number that
              >> raced that particular race, while the
              DNS is based on the number that
              >> are registered.
              >> As far
              as B-fleet goes, I don't like the idea of a B-Fleet. I think
              >> it
              splits things up too much. Also, when I finish a race, I usually
              >>
              sail back to those in the back of the pack and encourage and coach
              >>
              then. If they are finishing before, on their one lap, then I can't
              >>
              help them.
              >> I think if we could have a time limit after the 1st
              finisher, of say
              >> 15 min. or 20 min., then you could finish the
              racer where ever they
              >> are at that time. Saving time, giving them
              time to rest a bit between
              >> races, and still giving them something
              to shoot for, mainly finishing
              >> before the time limit. And allowing
              for coaching and encouragement by
              >> those that have finished
              already.
              >> Just my 2-cents.
              >> Jeff
              >>
              >>
              Jeff Adamski
              >> Wind 4 Life, LLC
              >> Windsurfing and Kiting
              Instruction
              >> PASA Certified
              >> Sail and Kite
              Repair
              >> jeff@wind4life. us
              >> 763-441-1521
              >>
              612-309-3429 cell.
              >>
              >>
              >> ------ Original Message
              ------
              >> Received: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 02:17:46 PM CDT
              >> From:
              "Jack" <drjacksonwiley@ yahoo.com>
              >> To: mowind@yahoogroups.
              com
              >> Subject: [mowind] Re: input on
              B-fleet
              >>
              >>
              >> Thanks for posting Dan's comments.
              It is good to get as much input as
              >> possible.
              >>
              >>
              I like the idea of Sport Unlimited. We could then limit sport Men's
              >>
              to 8.5, and possibly sport Women's to 7.5 . Anyone else could go
              >>
              into
              >> unlimited.
              >>
              >> I would also like to add
              another item for discussion regarding
              >> scoring. Sometimes for a sport
              fleet racer it is a challenge just to
              >> get across the starting line.
              I would like to recognize that by
              >> awarding a higher score than 1 for
              a Sport Fleet DNF. I think it is
              >> fair to award a racer points for
              beating everyone who opts to remain
              >> on the
              beach.
              >>
              >> I don't think this is necessary in the A-Fleet
              because those racers
              >> generally do not get more than one or two DNFs
              and they are often
              >> thrown
              out.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel
              >>
              today!
              >
              > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              > Play Monopoly
              Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
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              >
              >
              >

            • Del Carpenter
              Interesting idea about 10 points for registering at a regatta. Either way, I want to be clear that I am totally in favor of our high-point system. My previous
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 2, 2007
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                Interesting idea about 10 points for registering at a regatta.
                Either way, I want to be clear that I am totally in favor of our
                high-point system.
                My previous comment pointing out US Sailing uses a low-point system was
                not an endorsement of low-point scoring, just a notice that we would
                have to rewrite the US Sailing rules listed in "a c"'s message in order
                to use them in a high point scoring system.

                Del
                "
                > THE RACING RULES OF SAILING 2005-2008 Including US SAILING
                > Prescriptions pg. 55     Appendiix B-Windsurfing Competition
                > Rules              B8.4 Uncompleted Heat              When a heat
                > cannot be completed,the points for the unscored places shall be added
                > together and divided by the number of places in the heat. The
                > resulting number of points,to the nearest tenth of a point(0.05 to be
                > rounded upward), shall be given to each board entered in the heat
                > .                                                           B8.5 
                > Scoring a Final Series in Slalom  (a)   If three final races are
                > completed ,a board's series score in the final shall be the total of
                > her race scores excluding her worst score .Otherwise her series score
                > shall be the total of her race scores
                > .                                                                      
                >                    (b)                 A board that did not START, did
                > not FINISH, retired after finishing or was disqualified from a final
                > race shall be scored points equal to the total number of boards
                > entered in the final .  "      
                >




                On Oct 2, 2007, at 7:26 PM, - Woody - wrote:

                > I would be in favour of having participants receive an automatic 10
                > points for attending (registering) at a regatta. This would award the
                > ones who travel the most, and it would also work well with the MOWIND
                > high point system.
                >  
                > Woody
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Jeff & Bonnie Koeberl <jeffkoeberl@...>
                > Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 5:29 pm
                > Subject: [mowind] Re: input on B-fleet
                > To: mowind@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > > Here is the deal - we are promoting a regional race tour for
                > > MOWIND,
                > > and low point scoring would not provide a way to determine who
                > > won the
                > > tour.  High point scoring provides that.  Thus, we
                > > need to determine
                > > how to manage high point scoring.  The implementation we
                > > have now
                > > works, though certainly it can be tweaked to be improved as
                > > necessary.  I recommend we determine a committee for MOWIND
                > > this year
                > > to propose changes if that committee can agree on
                > > improvements.  We
                > > can use the voting feature of the Yahoo MOWIND group to accept
                > > or
                > > reject recommendation(s).  
                > >
                > > Consider though other examples...  US Windsurfing awards
                > > each
                > > participant in a NRT race 10 points for participation, plus one
                > > additional point for each person that they beat in their fleet.
                > > In
                > > that way they can support low point scoring, but apply high
                > > points for
                > > the tour.  Personally, I don't think that option works as
                > > well as it
                > > provides lots of credit for attending regattas but little for
                > > doing
                > > well in a regatta.  Our current implementation for MOWIND
                > > is weighted
                > > both for attendance as well as for overall performance.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In mowind@yahoogroups.com, Del Carpenter
                > > <delcarpenter@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I believe the rules from US Sailing are written for a scoring
                > > system 
                > > > that uses low-point scoring for winners...the winn er gets the
                > > lowest 
                > > > score, last place gets the highest score. 
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
              • Dr. Wiley
                I would like to summarize some of the ideas so far: 1) DNF should be more than 1 point, and should equal 1+the number of DNS. This scoring reflects the effort
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  I would like to summarize some of the ideas so far:

                  1) DNF should be more than 1 point, and should equal
                  1+the number of DNS.

                  This scoring reflects the effort required to get out
                  on the water and cross the starting line. Using this
                  rule in Worthington last year would have awarded a
                  racer with all DNF 112 points.

                  Also, the hight point and low point scores do not
                  always agree. The difference is due to the differing
                  effect of a DNF score. High point DNF = 1 and low
                  point DNF = 1 + total racers.

                  In the Toledo race they alter this rule by making DNF
                  = Finishers + 1, meaning that you get credit for
                  beating each DNS.

                  Mike Fox has also told me that he supports a more
                  rewarding score for DNF.

                  When comparing these systems, differences will arise
                  when there are abnormally low starters or finishers.
                  When comparing the leaders of a regatta, who generally
                  race every race, the place order will be similar
                  regardless of the rules.

                  2) When a race is canceled midway due to weather,
                  those still on the course will split the remaining
                  points. I will apply this to the Iowa example.

                  In the regatta there were 22 racers in the A-Fleet

                  Race 4 had 8 starters and 1 finisher. The winner got
                  23 points and 7 others got 1 point.

                  By splitting up the remaining points, each DNF in the
                  canceled race would get (22+21+20+19+18+17+16)/7 = 19
                  points.

                  Using the DNF = 1 + DNS, each DNF would get 15 points.

                  The overall difference between 1st and 2nd place in
                  the regatta was 18 points, so in the first case the
                  places would be switched.

                  The main thing we want is to keep the scoring simple.
                  We certainly don't want to end up like NASCAR did with
                  a chase for the cup after so many races. Secondly, we
                  would like the scoring system to encourage people to
                  get out on the water. Awarding more points for DNF
                  does this.

                  Another thing that we are doing in general is in the
                  case of a race that is taking too long. We will score
                  the racers in their order on the course, and then
                  recall the race. Sometimes this procedure is
                  difficult and relies on somebody driving a jet-ski
                  around the course. It also makes scoring more
                  difficult. We could simplify it by ending the race
                  and awarding all non-finishers a DNF (the more
                  rewarding kind).

                  It is true that more points for DNF means that the
                  scoring will be tighter all around. This will also
                  encourage people to get out on the water. When we do
                  get a committee formed I can put together a comparison
                  for the different systems based on real scores.
                • Jeff & Bonnie Koeberl
                  Jeff Adamski raised this option when we were talking at Mille Lacs, and I must admit when I first heard it I thought it sounded like a good alternative. It
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 4, 2007
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                    Jeff Adamski raised this option when we were talking at Mille Lacs,
                    and I must admit when I first heard it I thought it sounded like a
                    good alternative. It would promote getting people out on the water
                    for races, etc... However, since then I've realized some of the down
                    sides. First - as anyone who has ever served on the boat for race
                    committee knows, starts are complicated. Watching the clock is very
                    important, coordinating flags & horns, and finally watching the start
                    line for over early. Things happen very quickly, and under the best
                    of circimstances it would be very difficult with a fleet of any size
                    for the committee to accurately record who started the race. If we
                    were going to begin making it more lucrative for someone to come out
                    and just start the race (or, possibly just argue that they did start
                    the race), I suspect we will have some additional complexity here.

                    Another issue strictly applying what was proposed would be this. Lets
                    say a fleet of 20 racers and 10 stay on shore (we've all seen this).
                    One of those that starts stays out just to start, then heads in with
                    11 points, exactly 1 short of who ever finishes last of the 9 that
                    finish. Is that really what we wanted to accomplish? Probably not.

                    Bottom line, we have a lot of perspectives to consider and represent.
                    Given my role I intend to designate (soon) a committee representing as
                    many interests as practical (per Kevin's suggestion yesterday) to make
                    proposals for potential changes, and then try to find an equitable way
                    for members to weigh in on those proposals so we can determine what
                    changes are wise. Fortunate for us we have a period before Iowa (our
                    next race) where we can consider this! I'm sure that it will be a hot
                    topic in Hatteras next week & next spring... ;)

                    PS: Thanks Jack for the great analysis below, very helpful!!

                    --- In mowind@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. Wiley" <drjacksonwiley@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would like to summarize some of the ideas so far:
                    >
                    > 1) DNF should be more than 1 point, and should equal
                    > 1+the number of DNS.
                    >
                    >
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