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the alphabet question

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  • Patrick Seriot
    Dear colleagues I am interested in the questions of the alphabets in Bielorussia, i.e. the shift between latin and cyrillic scripts. Were there discussions on
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2001
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      Dear colleagues
      I am interested in the questions of the alphabets in Bielorussia,
      i.e. the shift between latin and cyrillic scripts.
      Were there discussions on the compared superiority of one or the
      other, at the end of the 19th century, or in the 1920'-1930'? Do you
      know where I could find examples of Bielorussian written in the latin
      script?
      Tank you in advance
      Patrick SERIOT
      ______ Prof. Patrick SERIOT _______
      ______ Section de langues slaves _____
      ______ Faculte des Lettres _________
      ______ Universite de LAUSANNE _____
      ______ BFSH2 _________________
      ______ CH - 1015 LAUSANNE ______
      ______ tel. 41 21 - 692 30 01 _____
      ______ fax. 41 21 - 692 30 75 _____
      ______ http://www.unil.ch/slav/ling __
    • uladzik@yahoo.com
      Vitaju, Virtually the only [nice] resource I know of is the old Mikola Paczakajeu s Lacinka article in English, which he lately extended and added more
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 2, 2001
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        Vitaju,

        Virtually the only [nice] resource I know of is the old Mikola
        Paczakajeu's "Lacinka" article in English, which he lately extended
        and added more scanned images of the texts in Latin script. You can
        find it here:
        http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~np214/lacin.htm

        Also you can see HOW a Lacinka text would look like by feeding your
        Cyrillics original into an automatic converter at this address:
        http://knihi.com/lacinizatar/

        H.T.H.
        U.K.


        --- In movaznaustva@y..., Patrick Seriot <pseriot@u...> wrote:
        > Dear colleagues
        > I am interested in the questions of the alphabets in Bielorussia,
        > i.e. the shift between latin and cyrillic scripts.
        > Were there discussions on the compared superiority of one or the
        > other, at the end of the 19th century, or in the 1920'-1930'? Do
        you
        > know where I could find examples of Bielorussian written in the
        latin
        > script?
        > Tank you in advance
        > Patrick SERIOT
        > ______ Prof. Patrick SERIOT _______
        > ______ Section de langues slaves _____
        > ______ Faculte des Lettres _________
        > ______ Universite de LAUSANNE _____
        > ______ BFSH2 _________________
        > ______ CH - 1015 LAUSANNE ______
        > ______ tel. 41 21 - 692 30 01 _____
        > ______ fax. 41 21 - 692 30 75 _____
        > ______ http://www.unil.ch/slav/ling __
      • uladzik@yahoo.com
        ... N.B. That Lacinizatar is very good, but it has one little flaw: like most Belarusians it doesn t distinguish between H and G. :-)
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 2, 2001
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          > Also you can see HOW a Lacinka text would look like by feeding your
          > Cyrillics original into an automatic converter at this address:
          > http://knihi.com/lacinizatar/

          N.B. That "Lacinizatar" is very good, but it has one little flaw:
          like most Belarusians it doesn't distinguish between H and G. :-)
        • Peter Kasaty
          Someone on this list should be able to answer your specific question regarding Cyrillic versus Lacinka, if they haven t already contacted you directly. As
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 2, 2001
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            Someone on this list should be able to answer your specific question
            regarding Cyrillic versus Lacinka, if they haven't already contacted
            you directly.

            As Uladzimir pointed out, the best Web resource is Mikola
            Paczakajeu's "Lacinka" article.

            Regarding the unanswered "g" versus "h" question, both of the Web
            sites Uladzimir refers to refer to the charts on my Web site, which
            does not answer the question. I know of many native Belarusian
            (Belarusan) language speakers who strongly disagree about this issue,
            but I have never seen a scholarly treatment of it. (Mikola includes a
            few brief remarks about it, but mainly gives his learned opinion.)

            If someone would like to provide that information in English, I would
            be happy to add to the charts (and correct any other errors and
            omissions -- thanks in advance).

            In addition, for an English language summary of Belarusian language
            issues (for the non-scholar, since a scholar would know Belarusian and
            have access to more scholarly Belarusina-language resources), see my
            Web page:

            http://www.belarus-misc.org/bel-ling.htm#ling

            And specifically, to a comparison of Cyrillic and Lacinka fonts:

            http://www.belarus-misc.org/bel-alpha.htm#bel-alpha

            ("Lacinka" [Latsinka, Latzinka] can be spelled many ways in English
            (LOC transliteration, nothwithstanding), but I have the wrong "L" on
            my charts -- and some day, I will fix this.]

            Best wishes,

            -- Peter Kasaty kasaty@...


            On Sun, 2 Sep 2001 00:00:42 +0200, Patrick Seriot <pseriot@...>
            wrote:

            >Dear colleagues
            >I am interested in the questions of the alphabets in Bielorussia,
            >i.e. the shift between latin and cyrillic scripts.
            >Were there discussions on the compared superiority of one or the
            >other, at the end of the 19th century, or in the 1920'-1930'? Do you
            >know where I could find examples of Bielorussian written in the latin
            >script?
            >Tank you in advance
            >Patrick SERIOT
            >______ Prof. Patrick SERIOT _______
            >______ Section de langues slaves _____
            >______ Faculte des Lettres _________
            >______ Universite de LAUSANNE _____
            >______ BFSH2 _________________
            >______ CH - 1015 LAUSANNE ______
            >______ tel. 41 21 - 692 30 01 _____
            >______ fax. 41 21 - 692 30 75 _____
            >______ http://www.unil.ch/slav/ling __
            >
          • uladzik@yahoo.com
            ... There is NO issue and NO problem regarding the transliteration of this letter. In Belarusian words it is always transliterated as H (not G!), similarly to
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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              --- In movaznaustva@y..., Peter Kasaty <kasaty@c...> wrote:

              > Regarding the unanswered "g" versus "h" question, both of the Web
              > sites Uladzimir refers to refer to the charts on my Web site, which
              > does not answer the question. I know of many native Belarusian
              > (Belarusan) language speakers who strongly disagree about this
              > issue, but I have never seen a scholarly treatment of it.

              There is NO issue and NO problem regarding the transliteration of
              this letter. In Belarusian words it is always transliterated as H
              (not G!), similarly to Czech and Slovak language. And, sorry for
              being sarcastic, but asking a non-linguist about this issue is not
              unlike asking a Belarusan villager what he thinks about Einstein's
              special theory of relativity.

              There is, nevertheless, a second issue which is still unsolved. The
              problem is that in the 20's there was a cyrrillic letter "G with a
              tail". You can see it for example in the spelling of the name "Guy
              Montag" on www.geocities.com/biel451/. This letter was abandoned in
              the Stalinist's 1933 reform, because (what a logical reasoning!) most
              people pronounced "G" as "H" anyway...

              IMHO, the only issue is to revive "G with a tail" just like it was
              recently done by our Ukrainian colleagues.

              Sincerely,
              U.K.
            • Greville G. Corbett
              It just depends what scheme of transliteration you choose overall. Most specify h , for instance the British Standard and the Library of Congress. The
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                It just depends what scheme of transliteration you choose overall.
                Most specify "h", for instance the British Standard and the Library
                of Congress. The International Standards Organization in its 1968
                standard gave "g", but permitted "h" under some circumstances. In the
                Slavonic Languages book (Routledge 1993) we opted for "h".

                For a comparison of the different schemes, see Hans Wellisch "The
                Conversion of Scripts", NY, John Wiley, 1978

                Best

                Greville Corbett


                >--- In movaznaustva@y..., Peter Kasaty <kasaty@c...> wrote:
                >
                >> Regarding the unanswered "g" versus "h" question, both of the Web
                >> sites Uladzimir refers to refer to the charts on my Web site, which
                >> does not answer the question. I know of many native Belarusian
                >> (Belarusan) language speakers who strongly disagree about this
                >> issue, but I have never seen a scholarly treatment of it.
                >
                >There is NO issue and NO problem regarding the transliteration of
                >this letter. In Belarusian words it is always transliterated as H
                >(not G!), similarly to Czech and Slovak language. And, sorry for
                >being sarcastic, but asking a non-linguist about this issue is not
                >unlike asking a Belarusan villager what he thinks about Einstein's
                >special theory of relativity.
                >
                >There is, nevertheless, a second issue which is still unsolved. The
                >problem is that in the 20's there was a cyrrillic letter "G with a
                >tail". You can see it for example in the spelling of the name "Guy
                >Montag" on www.geocities.com/biel451/. This letter was abandoned in
                >the Stalinist's 1933 reform, because (what a logical reasoning!) most
                >people pronounced "G" as "H" anyway...
                >
                >IMHO, the only issue is to revive "G with a tail" just like it was
                >recently done by our Ukrainian colleagues.
                >
                >Sincerely,
                >U.K.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                >movaznaustva-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                --

                Greville G. Corbett
                Linguistic and International Studies
                University of Surrey
                Guildford email: g.corbett@...
                Surrey, GU2 7XH FAX: +44 1483 259527
                Great Britain phone: +44 1483 682849
                http://www.surrey.ac.uk/LIS/SMG/
              • uladzik@yahoo.com
                Interesting. I was not really aware what is going on outside of Belarus regardnig this. When I said that there is no problem and no issue I was refering to
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 3, 2001
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                  Interesting. I was not really aware what is going on outside of
                  Belarus regardnig this. When I said that there is "no problem and no
                  issue" I was refering to the vast majority of our linguists inside
                  Belarus. Just think, even the official "pro-russian" regime issues
                  passports with "H" (e.g. "Halina" not "Galina", "Hanna" not "Ganna").

                  --- In movaznaustva@y..., "Greville G. Corbett" <g.corbett@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > It just depends what scheme of transliteration you choose overall.
                  > Most specify "h", for instance the British Standard and the Library
                  > of Congress. The International Standards Organization in its 1968
                  > standard gave "g", but permitted "h" under some circumstances. In
                  the
                  > Slavonic Languages book (Routledge 1993) we opted for "h".
                  >
                  > For a comparison of the different schemes, see Hans Wellisch "The
                  > Conversion of Scripts", NY, John Wiley, 1978
                  >
                  > Best
                  >
                  > Greville Corbett
                • Uladzimer Varabjow
                  Vitan`ni Vashamos`ci, Dear Patrick Seriot, I m glad to inform you, that on page http://www.angelfire.com/wv/uv/chytanka.html you can find link on the book
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 4, 2001
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                    Vitan`ni Vashamos`ci,

                    Dear Patrick Seriot,
                    I'm glad to inform you, that on page
                    http://www.angelfire.com/wv/uv/chytanka.html you can find link
                    on the book " APAWIEDAN'NIA I LEHIENDY WIERSHAM. WILNIA - 1914 ".
                    In this book edited in 1914 the texts of the famous Belarus
                    literatures written in the latin script are included.
                    The text can be downloaded for local viewing from the address:
                    http://www.angelfire.com/wv/uv/arch/kuxta_w.zip - MS Word2000 format.

                    --
                    Najlepshyja zychan`ni,
                    Uladzimer Varabjow
                    mailto:uv@...
                  • Kordonsky, Roman
                    S^anou^nyja movaznau^cy! Jak vy, mabyc , dau^no viedajecie to Andrusiom Z^viram stvorana j dau^no dziejnic^aje u^ Siecivie Bielaruskaja Palic^ka . Ja tam
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 5, 2001
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                      S^anou^nyja movaznau^cy!

                      Jak vy, mabyc', dau^no viedajecie to Andrusiom Z^viram stvorana j dau^no
                      dziejnic^aje u^ Siecivie "Bielaruskaja Palic^ka". Ja tam pas^ukau^ knihi
                      linki na jakija dau^ spadar Varab`jou^ i nie znajs^ou^. Kali u^ vas nabrana
                      j na vas^aj asabistaj bac^ynie z'mies^c^ana kniha, to kin'cie, kali laska,
                      link na ZIP fajl spadaru Z^viru. Bo s^ukac' knihi na vas^ych asabistych
                      bac^ynach u karystal'nika nie chapaje ni c^asu ni ciarpien'nia. Zaraniej
                      vybac^ajusia kali kahos'ci pakryu^dziu^, alie moz^a pryjs^ou^ c^as karys'c'
                      Nas^aj Spravy pastavic' na piers^aje miejsca.

                      Z najleps^ymi paz^adan'niami

                      Raman Kardonski

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Uladzimer Varabjow [mailto:uv@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:34 PM
                      To: Patrick Seriot
                      Subject: Re: [movaznaustva] the alphabet question


                      Vitan`ni Vashamos`ci,

                      Dear Patrick Seriot,
                      I'm glad to inform you, that on page
                      http://www.angelfire.com/wv/uv/chytanka.html you can find link
                      on the book " APAWIEDAN'NIA I LEHIENDY WIERSHAM. WILNIA - 1914 ".
                      In this book edited in 1914 the texts of the famous Belarus
                      literatures written in the latin script are included.
                      The text can be downloaded for local viewing from the address:
                      http://www.angelfire.com/wv/uv/arch/kuxta_w.zip - MS Word2000 format.

                      --
                      Najlepshyja zychan`ni,
                      Uladzimer Varabjow
                      mailto:uv@...


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