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Hydraulic steering

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  • beeeteee017
    I recently broke into the hydraulic steering system right at the helm of my OI36. After resealing the connections I expected a lenghthy and convoluted
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 1, 2012
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      I recently "broke into" the hydraulic steering system right at the helm of my OI36. After resealing the connections I expected a lenghthy and convoluted bleeding process. There is a hydraulic oil reservoir roughly the same height of the steering ram with an air inflation valve on the top along with a air gague. I pumped air into it,spun the wheel a few times, and it began to work as before with no slipping or soft spots in the force required to move the rudder. Is it just that easy? Have I missed something that later will come back and bite me? Or is it an easy maintenance thing that was was designed into it? Thanks for any info. Brian Taylor OI36 SummerwindIV
    • Ralph Mader
      I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt. -- There is nothing, absolutely
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 1, 2012
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        I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
        --
        There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
      • brian taylor
        Thanks for the comeback. I guess it s just that easy as the steering is still doing what it is supposed to a week later. Brian Taylor OI36 Summerwind IV
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 9, 2012
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          Thanks for the comeback. I guess it's just that easy as the steering is still doing what it is supposed to a week later. Brian Taylor OI36 Summerwind IV
        • Mike
          I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I decided to
          Message 4 of 12 , May 28, 2012
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            I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I decided to redo the entire system. I had our steering pump rebuilt at Tampa Hydraulics for a price that would have bought an entire new one had Hynautics still been in business. But they came highly recommended and I hope they did a good job. Then I had 3 new flexible hydraulic lines made at Goodyear Rubber in St. Pete. Then we hooked the whole thing up and tried to bleed the system.

            I filled the reservoir and pumped up the system. We were happy to see the pressure stay at 55 lbs., something it had never done before, and there were no obvious leaks anywhere in the system. Hooray!

            But when we tried to bleed the system we found it just is not working. I loosened the two relief valves and my best mate started cranking on the wheel a few tens of turns one way then back the other way. I cracked the fittings at the ram until only fluid came out several times. Initially the ram moved a bit, a couple inches, and made gurgling noises when the direction of wheel turning was changed but it never moved full extent. It did make it all the way retracted once and I my mate hollered that she felt some resistance, then she started turning the other way. I did accidentally let the reservoir go dry once while we were priming the system but filling it and re-bleeding did not make any difference.

            That is where we sit. The system is holding the 55 lbs purge pressure nicely, there are 2 bubbles full of fluid, but the helm is running free. I should mention that the steering had always been fine before, just unreliable for maintaining pressure and fluid levels.

            Any ideas where to go from here?

            Mike and Cate on Horizon, Morgan OI415

            --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@...> wrote:
            >
            > I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering
            > system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
            > --
            > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
            > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
            >
          • USNCas@aol.com
            Sounds like air in the system. Check out some web sites on bleeding breaks. I would think hydrolics are hydrolics and you may pick up a trick or two. Dave ...
            Message 5 of 12 , May 28, 2012
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              Sounds like air in the system. 
              Check out some web sites on bleeding breaks.
               
              I would think hydrolics are hydrolics and you may pick up a trick or two.
               
              Dave


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mike <svhorizon@...>
              To: morganowners <morganowners@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 3:43 pm
              Subject: [morganowners] Re: Hydraulic steering

               


              I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I decided to redo the entire system. I had our steering pump rebuilt at Tampa Hydraulics for a price that would have bought an entire new one had Hynautics still been in business. But they came highly recommended and I hope they did a good job. Then I had 3 new flexible hydraulic lines made at Goodyear Rubber in St. Pete. Then we hooked the whole thing up and tried to bleed the system.

              I filled the reservoir and pumped up the system. We were happy to see the pressure stay at 55 lbs., something it had never done before, and there were no obvious leaks anywhere in the system. Hooray!

              But when we tried to bleed the system we found it just is not working. I loosened the two relief valves and my best mate started cranking on the wheel a few tens of turns one way then back the other way. I cracked the fittings at the ram until only fluid came out several times. Initially the ram moved a bit, a couple inches, and made gurgling noises when the direction of wheel turning was changed but it never moved full extent. It did make it all the way retracted once and I my mate hollered that she felt some resistance, then she started turning the other way. I did accidentally let the reservoir go dry once while we were priming the system but filling it and re-bleeding did not make any difference.

              That is where we sit. The system is holding the 55 lbs purge pressure nicely, there are 2 bubbles full of fluid, but the helm is running free. I should mention that the steering had always been fine before, just unreliable for maintaining pressure and fluid levels.

              Any ideas where to go from here?

              Mike and Cate on Horizon, Morgan OI415

              --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@...> wrote:
              >
              > I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering
              > system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
              > --
              > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
              > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
              >

            • GrooverKing
              Mike I recently re-built mine, and bought new flex tubing really cheap on ebay, but haven t installed it yet, well, because the copper pipe isn t leaking yet.
              Message 6 of 12 , May 29, 2012
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                Mike

                I recently re-built mine, and bought new flex tubing really cheap on ebay, but haven’t installed it yet, well, because the copper pipe isn’t leaking yet.

                What kind of tube did they use? What size? Is it possible the tube is soft enough to absorb the pressure instead of moving the ram? Could the ram be stuck?

                The instructions say the bleeding pressure on this system is 45lbs; the working pressure is 30lbs. 

                I have the hynautic air bleeding instructions in case they didn’t give you a copy.  I hope you don’t mind if I send them to your email.

                Maybe the re-build failed, and fluid is leaking inside the steering unit?

                Kinda hard to use the boat, I imagine.

                Grover & Natalia

                Windependence 1981 OI 416 #36

                 

                 

              • Ralph Mader
                I had the exact experience after I sent out my helm pump (Morgan 415 OI) to be rebuilt at a local hydraulics shop. It would not bleed. I finally gave up
                Message 7 of 12 , May 30, 2012
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                  I had the exact experience after I sent out my helm pump (Morgan 415 OI) to be rebuilt at a local hydraulics shop.  It would not bleed.  I finally gave up trying to bleed it and took the pump back to the hydraulic shop.  They looked at it (after I left it with them).  When I picked the pump up they said that they opened it up but didn't find anything wrong.  After hooking the pump up again at the boat, I had it working inside of 15 minutes with absolutely no air in the system.  I suspect that the shop messed something up and wouldn't fess up to it.  I'd recommend that you take the pump back or take it elsewhere to insure everything is put together right. 
                   
                  P.S. It took a few months for the new shaft seal they put in to stop weeping a bit of hydraulic fluid; but it did stop completely.

                  On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Mike <svhorizon@...> wrote:
                   



                  I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I decided to redo the entire system. I had our steering pump rebuilt at Tampa Hydraulics for a price that would have bought an entire new one had Hynautics still been in business. But they came highly recommended and I hope they did a good job. Then I had 3 new flexible hydraulic lines made at Goodyear Rubber in St. Pete. Then we hooked the whole thing up and tried to bleed the system.

                  I filled the reservoir and pumped up the system. We were happy to see the pressure stay at 55 lbs., something it had never done before, and there were no obvious leaks anywhere in the system. Hooray!

                  But when we tried to bleed the system we found it just is not working. I loosened the two relief valves and my best mate started cranking on the wheel a few tens of turns one way then back the other way. I cracked the fittings at the ram until only fluid came out several times. Initially the ram moved a bit, a couple inches, and made gurgling noises when the direction of wheel turning was changed but it never moved full extent. It did make it all the way retracted once and I my mate hollered that she felt some resistance, then she started turning the other way. I did accidentally let the reservoir go dry once while we were priming the system but filling it and re-bleeding did not make any difference.

                  That is where we sit. The system is holding the 55 lbs purge pressure nicely, there are 2 bubbles full of fluid, but the helm is running free. I should mention that the steering had always been fine before, just unreliable for maintaining pressure and fluid levels.

                  Any ideas where to go from here?

                  Mike and Cate on Horizon, Morgan OI415

                  --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering
                  > system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
                  > --
                  > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
                  > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                  >




                  --
                  There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                • Mike
                  Last night we pulled the bed apart and tried all the suggestions from this group and other procedures. Turns out neither the Morgan manual or the one for our
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 1, 2012
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                    Last night we pulled the bed apart and tried all the suggestions from this group and other procedures. Turns out neither the Morgan manual or the one for our dock neighbor's power boat mentioned bleeding air topside at the helm, but the Hynautics manual did so we tried that.

                    We found there was still a small amount of air left in the system. Once that air was purged though we still had the exact same problem: ATF flows freely under pressure from the reservoir but turning the helm does not seem to move more fluid to either side and the ram does not move. I am taking our newly rebuilt pump back to the shop to have them see what might be wrong.

                    Since the system pressurizes nicely and air-free fluid makes it to the helm, I am assuming the sinthered bronze filter at the reservoir is not crudded up and blocking fluid flow. If checking the new pump has no effect we will have to bite the bullet and try dismantling the reservoir and clean that filter. We have been resistant to that since I see no way to do it without getting atf all over the place :(

                    For the person who asked what type of hydraulic lines Goodyear Rubber made up for us to replace the copper lines: they are 1000 psi semi-rigid plastic but I will have to get back on exactly what make and model they are.

                    --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I had the exact experience after I sent out my helm pump (Morgan 415 OI) to
                    > be rebuilt at a local hydraulics shop. It would not bleed. I finally gave
                    > up trying to bleed it and took the pump back to the hydraulic shop. They
                    > looked at it (after I left it with them). When I picked the pump up they
                    > said that they opened it up but didn't find anything wrong. After hooking
                    > the pump up again at the boat, I had it working inside of 15 minutes with
                    > absolutely no air in the system. I suspect that the shop messed something
                    > up and wouldn't fess up to it. I'd recommend that you take the pump back
                    > or take it elsewhere to insure everything is put together right.
                    >
                    > P.S. It took a few months for the new shaft seal they put in to stop
                    > weeping a bit of hydraulic fluid; but it did stop completely.
                    >
                    > On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Mike <svhorizon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > **
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing
                    > > that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I
                    > > decided to redo the entire system. I had our steering pump rebuilt at Tampa
                    > > Hydraulics for a price that would have bought an entire new one had
                    > > Hynautics still been in business. But they came highly recommended and I
                    > > hope they did a good job. Then I had 3 new flexible hydraulic lines made at
                    > > Goodyear Rubber in St. Pete. Then we hooked the whole thing up and tried to
                    > > bleed the system.
                    > >
                    > > I filled the reservoir and pumped up the system. We were happy to see the
                    > > pressure stay at 55 lbs., something it had never done before, and there
                    > > were no obvious leaks anywhere in the system. Hooray!
                    > >
                    > > But when we tried to bleed the system we found it just is not working. I
                    > > loosened the two relief valves and my best mate started cranking on the
                    > > wheel a few tens of turns one way then back the other way. I cracked the
                    > > fittings at the ram until only fluid came out several times. Initially the
                    > > ram moved a bit, a couple inches, and made gurgling noises when the
                    > > direction of wheel turning was changed but it never moved full extent. It
                    > > did make it all the way retracted once and I my mate hollered that she felt
                    > > some resistance, then she started turning the other way. I did accidentally
                    > > let the reservoir go dry once while we were priming the system but filling
                    > > it and re-bleeding did not make any difference.
                    > >
                    > > That is where we sit. The system is holding the 55 lbs purge pressure
                    > > nicely, there are 2 bubbles full of fluid, but the helm is running free. I
                    > > should mention that the steering had always been fine before, just
                    > > unreliable for maintaining pressure and fluid levels.
                    > >
                    > > Any ideas where to go from here?
                    > >
                    > > Mike and Cate on Horizon, Morgan OI415
                    > >
                    > > --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering
                    > > > system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
                    > > > --
                    > > > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
                    > > > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
                    > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                    >
                  • Robert Burke
                    Are you getting return fluid from the steering station back at the reservoir? This would indicate fluid is flowing thru the helm. BOB
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 1, 2012
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                      Are you getting return fluid from the steering station back at the reservoir? This would indicate fluid is flowing thru the helm. BOB

                      From: Mike <svhorizon@...>
                      To: morganowners@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:52 AM
                      Subject: [morganowners] Re: Hydraulic steering

                       


                      Last night we pulled the bed apart and tried all the suggestions from this group and other procedures. Turns out neither the Morgan manual or the one for our dock neighbor's power boat mentioned bleeding air topside at the helm, but the Hynautics manual did so we tried that.

                      We found there was still a small amount of air left in the system. Once that air was purged though we still had the exact same problem: ATF flows freely under pressure from the reservoir but turning the helm does not seem to move more fluid to either side and the ram does not move. I am taking our newly rebuilt pump back to the shop to have them see what might be wrong.

                      Since the system pressurizes nicely and air-free fluid makes it to the helm, I am assuming the sinthered bronze filter at the reservoir is not crudded up and blocking fluid flow. If checking the new pump has no effect we will have to bite the bullet and try dismantling the reservoir and clean that filter. We have been resistant to that since I see no way to do it without getting atf all over the place :(

                      For the person who asked what type of hydraulic lines Goodyear Rubber made up for us to replace the copper lines: they are 1000 psi semi-rigid plastic but I will have to get back on exactly what make and model they are.

                      --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I had the exact experience after I sent out my helm pump (Morgan 415 OI) to
                      > be rebuilt at a local hydraulics shop. It would not bleed. I finally gave
                      > up trying to bleed it and took the pump back to the hydraulic shop. They
                      > looked at it (after I left it with them). When I picked the pump up they
                      > said that they opened it up but didn't find anything wrong. After hooking
                      > the pump up again at the boat, I had it working inside of 15 minutes with
                      > absolutely no air in the system. I suspect that the shop messed something
                      > up and wouldn't fess up to it. I'd recommend that you take the pump back
                      > or take it elsewhere to insure everything is put together right.
                      >
                      > P.S. It took a few months for the new shaft seal they put in to stop
                      > weeping a bit of hydraulic fluid; but it did stop completely.
                      >
                      > On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Mike <svhorizon@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > **
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I wish our experience was as good. Our OI415 had damaged copper tubing
                      > > that was leaking in several areas plus around the steering wheel shaft so I
                      > > decided to redo the entire system. I had our steering pump rebuilt at Tampa
                      > > Hydraulics for a price that would have bought an entire new one had
                      > > Hynautics still been in business. But they came highly recommended and I
                      > > hope they did a good job. Then I had 3 new flexible hydraulic lines made at
                      > > Goodyear Rubber in St. Pete. Then we hooked the whole thing up and tried to
                      > > bleed the system.
                      > >
                      > > I filled the reservoir and pumped up the system. We were happy to see the
                      > > pressure stay at 55 lbs., something it had never done before, and there
                      > > were no obvious leaks anywhere in the system. Hooray!
                      > >
                      > > But when we tried to bleed the system we found it just is not working. I
                      > > loosened the two relief valves and my best mate started cranking on the
                      > > wheel a few tens of turns one way then back the other way. I cracked the
                      > > fittings at the ram until only fluid came out several times. Initially the
                      > > ram moved a bit, a couple inches, and made gurgling noises when the
                      > > direction of wheel turning was changed but it never moved full extent. It
                      > > did make it all the way retracted once and I my mate hollered that she felt
                      > > some resistance, then she started turning the other way. I did accidentally
                      > > let the reservoir go dry once while we were priming the system but filling
                      > > it and re-bleeding did not make any difference.
                      > >
                      > > That is where we sit. The system is holding the 55 lbs purge pressure
                      > > nicely, there are 2 bubbles full of fluid, but the helm is running free. I
                      > > should mention that the steering had always been fine before, just
                      > > unreliable for maintaining pressure and fluid levels.
                      > >
                      > > Any ideas where to go from here?
                      > >
                      > > Mike and Cate on Horizon, Morgan OI415
                      > >
                      > > --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, Ralph Mader <ralph.mader@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I, too, was surprised at how easy it was to bleed my hydraulic steering
                      > > > system on my OI 415 after having the helm pump rebuilt.
                      > > > --
                      > > > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
                      > > > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > There is nothing, absolutely nothing half worth doing as simply messing
                      > about in boats--The Wind and the Willow
                      >



                    • Lawrence Breck
                      Mike, We have a 1982 OI 416 (original owner). In 2006 I rebuilt the steering pump because of a leaking seal. Take my word for it, there are a bazillion parts
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 1, 2012
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                        Mike,
                         
                        We have a 1982 OI 416 (original owner). In 2006 I rebuilt the steering pump because of a leaking seal.
                        Take my word for it, there are a bazillion parts inside that pump; several look almost identical, and some can be inverted or reversed without noticing the difference, but the result is a non-functioning pump. My guess is that is what happened at your mechanic's shop.
                         
                        I got the parts from CHARMET, 1-800-247-6323 (or -6324); they come with excellent drawings and instructions, but most importantly, the owner, Mike, and his assistant, Sherrie, gave me loads of invaluable help - by phone- during the reassembly process.  Their price to rebuild the pump was $325 in 2006; had I known how tedious the job would be (and I am mechanically adept), I would have had them do the rebuilding.
                         
                        If your mechanic says there is nothing wrong with the pump, you might try to get some help from CHARMET.
                         
                        Best wishes,
                        Larry Breck
                        GOLDEN DAZE

                      • Lesley
                        Mike, Congrats on getting the hydraulic steering to work! You mentioned the Hynautics manual. Do you have a PDF copy of that manual, or direct me to a link?
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 11, 2012
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                          Mike,
                          Congrats on getting the hydraulic steering to work! You mentioned the Hynautics manual. Do you have a PDF copy of that manual, or direct me to a link? I would like to add it to my collection of manuals.

                          Thanks!
                          Lesley
                          s/v Sheer Joy
                          Morgan 416

                          --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <svhorizon@...> wrote:
                          > Last night we pulled the bed apart and tried all the suggestions from this group and other procedures. Turns out neither the Morgan manual or the one for our dock neighbor's power boat mentioned bleeding air topside at the helm, but the Hynautics manual did so we tried that.
                          >
                        • Michael Barnes
                          Here are some sources for manuals Šthe first one is mineŠthe appendices were scanned at a high resolution so they could be enlarged and seen
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 11, 2012
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                            Here are some sources for manuals …the first one is mine…the appendices were scanned at a high resolution so they could be enlarged and seen


                            http://sportboards.bizland.com/dadidoc/id27.html




                            From: Lesley <LesleySuddard@...>
                            Reply-To: <morganowners@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Monday, June 11, 2012 10:12 AM
                            To: <morganowners@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: [morganowners] Re: Hydraulic steering

                             

                            Mike,
                            Congrats on getting the hydraulic steering to work! You mentioned the Hynautics manual. Do you have a PDF copy of that manual, or direct me to a link? I would like to add it to my collection of manuals.

                            Thanks!
                            Lesley
                            s/v Sheer Joy
                            Morgan 416

                            --- In morganowners@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <svhorizon@...> wrote:
                            > Last night we pulled the bed apart and tried all the suggestions from this group and other procedures. Turns out neither the Morgan manual or the one for our dock neighbor's power boat mentioned bleeding air topside at the helm, but the Hynautics manual did so we tried that.
                            >

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