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4 oz wine mid-fast

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  • David Thomas Jackemeyer
    Hi Paul and Kitty, I eat all of my calories once per day from 7:30am to 10am. [This is a change, since I know that you were eating your once daily meal in the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jun 4, 2008
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      Hi Paul and Kitty,

      I eat all of my calories once per day from 7:30am to 10am.

      [This is a change, since I know that you were eating your once daily meal in the evening just over a month ago. Is this related to the change from classes to summer work? --Paul]


      I have not found good information answering this concern of mine:

      Whether having 4 oz of red wine (no other intake) just before bedtime
      (9:00pm) would negate the positive effects of:
      1) the fasting period

      [Definitely yes. 4oz of red wine (even totally dry) would contain about 100 calories, which is not insignficant and will negate many of the beneficial effects of the fast for a short period. Intake of wine during the fasting period will also enhance the potential negative dietary effects of the alcohol in the wine. --Paul]


      2) important sleep processes

      [Likely the neurological effects will help sleep onset, but the metabolic effects will more than likely be negative for biochemical processes occurring during sleep. --Paul]


      3) other?

      [I can think of no other negatives from use of wine at this time of your daily cycle. OTOH, if you are not taking it in the morning with your daily meal, I think your logic may be wrong. If you are concerned about driving or working after drinking wine, then I think that you need not be, particularly if you drink it during the first half of your large daily meal and even more particularly if you drink some stimulating coffee or tea during the rest of the meal and during the following daytime. Under these circumstances I think that it is highly unlikely that such a small amount of wine will have any negative effects on your competence and behavior during the ensuing daytime hours. --Paul]


      Thanks,
      David Jackemeyer
      Tempe, AZ
      ASU student
    • David Thomas Jackemeyer
      ... Yes, now I wake at 6am, exercise at 7am (alternating 1hr and 1/2hr times at the gym), eat roughly between 7:30am and 10am, and finally to work at 10am
      Message 2 of 6 , Jun 10, 2008
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        "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@...> wrote:
        >Hi Paul and Kitty,
        >
        >I eat all of my calories once per day from 7:30am to 10am.
        >
        >[This is a change, since I know that you were eating your once daily
        >meal in the evening just over a month ago. Is this related to the
        >change from classes to summer work? --Paul]

        Yes, now I wake at 6am, exercise at 7am (alternating 1hr and 1/2hr
        times at the gym), eat roughly between 7:30am and 10am, and finally to
        work at 10am which lasts till 6:30pm.

        [Ok. That makes sense. --Paul]

        >I have not found good information answering this concern of mine:
        >Whether having 4 oz of red wine (no other intake) just before
        >bedtime (9:00pm) would negate the positive effects of:
        >1) the fasting period
        >
        > [Definitely yes. 4oz of red wine (even totally dry) would contain
        >about 100 calories, which is not insignificant and will negate many
        >of the beneficial effects of the fast for a short period. Intake of
        >wine during the fasting period will also enhance the potential
        >negative dietary effects of the alcohol in the wine. --Paul]

        OK. Since 10% of the calories in my Merlot wine are from sugar, the
        remainder from alcohol, I had thought possibly my blood glucose levels
        remain stable while the liver took care of metabolizing the alcohol.
        You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the potential
        negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking with foods -- how
        much worse would you predict?

        [I am away on a trip right now without access to all my research "tools" so I cannot easily give any answer to this at the moment. However, I will later plan to do some work on the metabolism of alcohol and get back to this thread with information on it. OTOH, if Olafur reads this message, perhaps he could answer and save me the effort. --Paul]

        > 2) important sleep processes
        >
        > [Likely the neurological effects will help sleep onset, but the
        >metabolic effects will more than likely be negative for biochemical
        >processes occurring during sleep. --Paul]

        Thank you for your input -- I do not want to interrupt beneficial
        biochemical processes during sleep!

        > 3) other?
        >
        > [I can think of no other negatives from use of wine at this time of
        >your daily cycle. OTOH, if you are not taking it in the morning with
        >your daily meal, I think your logic may be wrong. If you are
        >concerned about driving or working after drinking wine, then I think
        >that you need not be, particularly if you drink it during the first
        >half of your large daily meal and even more particularly if you drink
        >some stimulating coffee or tea during the rest of the meal and during
        >the following daytime. Under these circumstances I think that it is
        >highly unlikely that such a small amount of wine will have any
        >negative effects on your competence and behavior during the ensuing
        >daytime hours. --Paul]

        You are correct regarding my subjective experience, especially if I
        drink the wine after ingesting any other foods/drinks, I feel no loss
        of coordination or sluggishness of thought.
        FYI, I alternate between these three: wine, Trader Joe's Grape Juice,
        and raisins for my grape source.

        [Then I expect that you will now start taking all of these in the morning since they will all interrupt your fast. --Paul]

        Warmly,
        "Jack" emeyer

        > Thanks,
        > David Jackemeyer
        > Tempe, AZ
        > ASU student
      • �lafur P�ll �lafsson
        ... ... I am not sure how you got the idea that the liver s act of metabolizing the alcohol would somehow keep the blood sugar stable. Anyways, drinking
        Message 3 of 6 , Jun 13, 2008
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          --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "David Thomas Jackemeyer"
          <Olehenry1@...> wrote:
          >
          > "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@> wrote:

          <snip>

          > >I have not found good information answering this concern of mine:
          > >Whether having 4 oz of red wine (no other intake) just before
          > >bedtime (9:00pm) would negate the positive effects of:
          > >1) the fasting period
          > >
          > > [Definitely yes. 4oz of red wine (even totally dry) would contain
          > >about 100 calories, which is not insignificant and will negate many
          > >of the beneficial effects of the fast for a short period. Intake of
          > >wine during the fasting period will also enhance the potential
          > >negative dietary effects of the alcohol in the wine. --Paul]
          >
          > OK. Since 10% of the calories in my Merlot wine are from sugar, the
          > remainder from alcohol, I had thought possibly my blood glucose levels
          > remain stable while the liver took care of metabolizing the alcohol.

          I am not sure how you got the idea that the liver's act of
          metabolizing the alcohol would somehow keep the blood sugar stable.
          Anyways, drinking one 4oz glass of red wine (containing approximately
          100 calories of which 10% are sugar) in a fasting state will likely
          not cause any significant increase in your blood sugar for two
          reasons. First of all 10% of 100 calories only amounts to about 2,5g
          of sugar. This is hardly a significant amount and will at most cause a
          very small rise in your blood sugar unless it were absorbed extremely
          fast. Second of all alcohol ingestion reduces gluconeogenesis in
          humans http://pmid.us/9815011 which could result in a slight decrease
          in blood sugar. In a fasted state the main way in which the body keeps
          the blood sugar stable is by releasing glucose from the liver to the
          bloodstream (the kidneys to a smaller extent also contribute to the
          release of glucose into the blood during fasting). This glucose comes
          from glycogenolysis (the breakdown of glycogen) and from
          gluconeogenesis (synthesis of glucose from non-carbohydrade
          precursors, mainly amino acids) in the liver. After several hours of
          fasting the liver's glycogen stores start getting depleted resulting
          in gluconeogenesis becoming the dominant source of glucose. Thus in a
          fasted state the liver constantly produces glucose to keep the blood
          glucose from dropping too low. While the effect of a glass of wine on
          gluconeogenesis won't be large it might just be large enough to offset
          the slight increase in glucose caused by the small amount of sugar in
          the wine causing the net effect to be that your blood sugar does not
          rise at all. But even if the blood sugar would not change at all upon
          drinking the glass of wine the slight inhibition of gluconeogenesis
          will in itself negatively effect the benefits of the fasting
          temporarily. This is because the increase in breakdown and
          recycling of the body's protein gluconeogenesis demands is one of the
          benefits of fasting.

          > You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the potential
          > negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking with foods -- how
          > much worse would you predict?

          This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on several
          factors including of course the dose of the alcohol. Also the timing
          of the alcohol intake will effect its positive effects as well as its
          negative effects. With respect to the positive effects evidence
          suggests that some of the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
          consumption are caused by a hormetic effect. This is among others
          supported by the J shaped curve that relates alcohol intake to
          mortality. To get the hormetic benefit the dose consumed must be large
          enough to cause a stress response. But if the dose is too large the
          harm will be more than the benefit from the stress response. This is
          why alcohol is only beneficial in moderation. Epidemiological studies
          suggest that somewhere around 10-40g of alcohol a day is the optimal
          dose for reduction in mortality (full text of PMID: 15006414). Note
          that the stress on the body from drinking a dose of alcohol spread
          over the day will be less than the stress of consuming it all in one
          dose. Thus 10g of alcohol might be enough to cause a beneficial
          hormetic response if drunken in a single dose while it may not be
          enough to cause such a response if one were to consume it in several
          small doses over the day, such as when spreading it over three meals.
          On the other hand 40g of alcohol is most likely enough to cause a
          beneficial hormetic response even if spread over the day. But taking
          40g all at once would probably cause a stress response that is
          considerably higher than that needed to cause the beneficial hormetic
          response and might be high enough for the harmful effects to outweigh
          the beneficial ones. These numbers of course are just estimates and
          will be very individual. But note that drinking alcohol with a meal
          does spread the dose considerably compared to drinking it on a fasting
          stomach since the meal will slow down its absorption.

          I think that generally, as long as the dose of alcohol is lower to
          compensate for it being less spread through out the day, drinking wine
          in a fasting state will not be more negative than taking it with a
          meal. But this is without taking into account the potential of the
          wine to disturb the fast by increasing glucose and reducing
          gluconeogenesis. That effect alone, even though it will only wary for
          a short time, is a good enough reason for me to think that in your
          case drinking the wine with or right after the meal will be more
          beneficial than drinking it later in the day when you are in a fasted
          state. As Paul mentioned the potential of the wine to interrupt
          important sleep processes is yet another reason not to drink it before
          you go to sleep. In conclusion I agree with Paul's advice that it
          would be better for you to drink the wine with the meal or right after
          eating it.

          > [I am away on a trip right now without access to all my research
          > "tools" so I cannot easily give any answer to this at the moment.
          > However, I will later plan to do some work on the metabolism of
          > alcohol and get back to this thread with information on it. OTOH, if
          > Olafur reads this message, perhaps he could answer and save me the
          > effort. --Paul]

          Sure Paul. This subject wasn't exactly of much interest to me since I
          myself do not drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I plan to in part
          because I dislike their taste. But I'm always glad to save you some of
          the effort.

          [Thanks. I think there is still some more that needs to be stated about the metabolism of alcohol, but I will look into it when I get back home. --Paul]


          BTW I did not know you guys were on a trip. It probably explains why I
          haven't heard from you in a while. I hope you have a nice trip.

          [The trip is a one week stay in Toledo for the main purpose of receiving, getting tested and distributing a recent joint bulk purchase of pure trans-resveratrol which we were coordinating. A secondary purpose was to receive and transport back to Canada a 3 months supply of supplements from LEF. A third reason for specifically doing this in Toledo (besides its being close to the Canadian border where we reside from May to October) has been to visit our new friend Steve Floyd, who is a poster to this group. We've also taken the opportunity to get our regular service to the car and are enjoying some very nice walks - including in 2, so far, of several park preserves in the greater Toledo area. (Spied 7 wild white tail deer, including one mother and spotted fawn, in this "metropolitan" area.) We will be returning to Harcourt Park on Monday. --Paul]
        • François ROSE
          ... ... I m not sure I understand the dosage figure (maybe I ve mixed up with the sugar calculation above): My red wine contains 12% of
          Message 4 of 6 , Jun 29, 2008
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            --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
            <olafurpall@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "David Thomas Jackemeyer"
            > <Olehenry1@> wrote:
            > >
            > > "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@> wrote:
            ><snip>
            > > You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the
            > > potential negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking
            > > with foods -- how much worse would you predict?
            >
            > This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on
            > several factors including of course the dose of the alcohol. Also
            > the timing of the alcohol intake will effect its positive effects as
            > well as its
            > negative effects. With respect to the positive effects evidence
            > suggests that some of the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
            > consumption are caused by a hormetic effect. This is among others
            > supported by the J shaped curve that relates alcohol intake to
            > mortality. To get the hormetic benefit the dose consumed must be
            > large enough to cause a stress response. But if the dose is too
            > large the harm will be more than the benefit from the stress
            > response. This is why alcohol is only beneficial in moderation.
            > Epidemiological studies suggest that somewhere around 10-40g of
            > alcohol a day is the optimal
            > dose for reduction in mortality (full text of PMID: 15006414). Note
            > that the stress on the body from drinking a dose of alcohol spread
            > over the day will be less than the stress of consuming it all in
            > one dose. Thus 10g of alcohol might be enough to cause a beneficial
            > hormetic response if drunken in a single dose while it may not be
            > enough to cause such a response if one were to consume it in
            > several small doses over the day, such as when spreading it over
            > three meals.
            > On the other hand 40g of alcohol is most likely enough to cause a
            > beneficial hormetic response even if spread over the day. But
            > taking 40g all at once would probably cause a stress response that
            > is considerably higher than that needed to cause the beneficial
            > hormetic response and might be high enough for the harmful effects
            > to outweigh
            > the beneficial ones. These numbers of course are just estimates and
            > will be very individual. But note that drinking alcohol with a meal
            > does spread the dose considerably compared to drinking it on a
            > fasting stomach since the meal will slow down its absorption.

            I'm not sure I understand the dosage figure (maybe I've mixed up
            with the sugar calculation above):
            My red wine contains 12% of alcohol (according to its label)
            Does 10 g of alcohol a day would equal to 10*100/12 =~ 0.083 liter
            (=2,82 fl oz) of wine?
            If that's the case, then I assume that my regural intake of wine (I
            drink around .2 liter =6.76 fl oz each day ) is within the right
            range considering the fact that I drink it with my one meal a day.


            > I think that generally, as long as the dose of alcohol is lower to
            > compensate for it being less spread through out the day, drinking
            > wine in a fasting state will not be more negative than taking it
            > with a meal. But this is without taking into account the potential
            > of the wine to disturb the fast by increasing glucose and reducing
            > gluconeogenesis. That effect alone, even though it will only wary
            > for a short time, is a good enough reason for me to think that in
            > your case drinking the wine with or right after the meal will be
            > more beneficial than drinking it later in the day when you are in a
            > fasted state. As Paul mentioned the potential of the wine to
            > interrupt important sleep processes is yet another reason not to
            > drink it before you go to sleep. In conclusion I agree with Paul's
            > advice that it would be better for you to drink the wine with the
            > meal or right after eating it.
            >
            > > [I am away on a trip right now without access to all my research
            > > "tools" so I cannot easily give any answer to this at the moment.
            > > However, I will later plan to do some work on the metabolism of
            > > alcohol and get back to this thread with information on it.
            > > OTOH, if
            > > Olafur reads this message, perhaps he could answer and save me
            > > the effort. --Paul]
            >
            > Sure Paul. This subject wasn't exactly of much interest to me
            > since I myself do not drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I plan to in
            > part because I dislike their taste. But I'm always glad to save you
            > some of the effort.

            I used to dislike the taste of red wine until I was a teenager but my
            father has educated my taste and it came gradually. My wife also
            used to
            dislike the taste of red wine before she met me.
            <snip>

            François Rose
          • Paul Wakfer
            ... I am not sure why you are asking above whether or not your calculation is correct. However, it may be a little off for the following reason. Perhaps the
            Message 5 of 6 , Jun 29, 2008
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              On 06/29/2008 01:57 PM, François ROSE wrote:
              > --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
              > <olafurpall@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              >> --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "David Thomas Jackemeyer"
              >> <Olehenry1@> wrote:
              >>
              >>> "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@> wrote:
              >>>
              >> <snip>
              >>
              >>> You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the
              >>> potential negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking
              >>> with foods -- how much worse would you predict?
              >>>
              >> This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on
              >> several factors including of course the dose of the alcohol. Also
              >> the timing of the alcohol intake will effect its positive effects as
              >> well as its
              >> negative effects. With respect to the positive effects evidence
              >> suggests that some of the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
              >> consumption are caused by a hormetic effect. This is among others
              >> supported by the J shaped curve that relates alcohol intake to
              >> mortality. To get the hormetic benefit the dose consumed must be
              >> large enough to cause a stress response. But if the dose is too
              >> large the harm will be more than the benefit from the stress
              >> response. This is why alcohol is only beneficial in moderation.
              >> Epidemiological studies suggest that somewhere around 10-40g of
              >> alcohol a day is the optimal
              >> dose for reduction in mortality (full text of PMID: 15006414). Note
              >> that the stress on the body from drinking a dose of alcohol spread
              >> over the day will be less than the stress of consuming it all in
              >> one dose. Thus 10g of alcohol might be enough to cause a beneficial
              >> hormetic response if drunken in a single dose while it may not be
              >> enough to cause such a response if one were to consume it in
              >> several small doses over the day, such as when spreading it over
              >> three meals.
              >> On the other hand 40g of alcohol is most likely enough to cause a
              >> beneficial hormetic response even if spread over the day. But
              >> taking 40g all at once would probably cause a stress response that
              >> is considerably higher than that needed to cause the beneficial
              >> hormetic response and might be high enough for the harmful effects
              >> to outweigh
              >> the beneficial ones. These numbers of course are just estimates and
              >> will be very individual. But note that drinking alcohol with a meal
              >> does spread the dose considerably compared to drinking it on a
              >> fasting stomach since the meal will slow down its absorption.
              >>
              >
              > I'm not sure I understand the dosage figure (maybe I've mixed up
              > with the sugar calculation above):
              > My red wine contains 12% of alcohol (according to its label)
              > Does 10 g of alcohol a day would equal to 10*100/12 =~ 0.083 liter
              > (=2,82 fl oz) of wine?
              > If that's the case, then I assume that my regural intake of wine (I
              > drink around .2 liter =6.76 fl oz each day ) is within the right
              > range considering the fact that I drink it with my one meal a day.
              >

              I am not sure why you are asking above whether or not your calculation
              is correct. However, it may be a little off for the following reason.

              Perhaps the alcohol ratio is given differently on the labels of wine
              in France, but in Canada and the US it is given as a percentage of the
              *volume* of the wine.
              Since the specific gravity of alcohol is only 0.79, this will make
              some not insignificant difference than if one uses percentage weight.
              For example your 0.2 liters of wine will contain 200 x 0.12 = 24 ml
              of alcohol which is only 24 x 0.79 = 19 grams.

              --Paul

              >> I think that generally, as long as the dose of alcohol is lower to
              >> compensate for it being less spread through out the day, drinking
              >> wine in a fasting state will not be more negative than taking it
              >> with a meal. But this is without taking into account the potential
              >> of the wine to disturb the fast by increasing glucose and reducing
              >> gluconeogenesis. That effect alone, even though it will only wary
              >> for a short time, is a good enough reason for me to think that in
              >> your case drinking the wine with or right after the meal will be
              >> more beneficial than drinking it later in the day when you are in a
              >> fasted state. As Paul mentioned the potential of the wine to
              >> interrupt important sleep processes is yet another reason not to
              >> drink it before you go to sleep. In conclusion I agree with Paul's
              >> advice that it would be better for you to drink the wine with the
              >> meal or right after eating it.
              >>
              >>
              >>> [I am away on a trip right now without access to all my research
              >>> "tools" so I cannot easily give any answer to this at the moment.
              >>> However, I will later plan to do some work on the metabolism of
              >>> alcohol and get back to this thread with information on it.
              >>> OTOH, if
              >>> Olafur reads this message, perhaps he could answer and save me
              >>> the effort. --Paul]
              >>>
              >> Sure Paul. This subject wasn't exactly of much interest to me
              >> since I myself do not drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I plan to in
              >> part because I dislike their taste. But I'm always glad to save you
              >> some of the effort.
              >>
              >
              > I used to dislike the taste of red wine until I was a teenager but my
              > father has educated my taste and it came gradually. My wife also
              > used to
              > dislike the taste of red wine before she met me.

              [I didn't find the taste of red wine really pleasant until I and Paul began making wine coolers. Years ago I did enjoy white and blush (rose) wines, but these of course do not have the health benefits of the red. But very recently we bought a Chilean wine that is a combination of Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot and I find it so nice that I would enjoy a small glass of it plain, without the additional cooler ingredients. **Kitty]

              > <snip>
              >
              > François Rose
            • Paul Wakfer
              Note that I am responding to this message again partly because I got mixed up and wrote a response before I realized that I had already responded previously,
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 16, 2008
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                Note that I am responding to this message again partly because I got
                mixed up and wrote a response before I realized that I had already
                responded previously, partly because in the new response I expanded on
                the previous response in one area (before I realized that I had
                already responded to this message previously) with some personal
                information that I think may be of interest to some readers, partly
                because I want to add some information to Olafur's response to Jack's
                (David Thomas Jackemeyer) original message which information I think
                is important and, finally, partly because I wanted to communicate to
                readers that I have changed my decision with respect to consuming
                alcohol, at least for the time being, as a result of doing the
                research for this message.

                Is all that clear? There will be a quiz at the end of the message :-)

                On 06/29/2008 01:57 PM, François ROSE wrote:
                > --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, Ólafur Páll Ólafsson
                > <olafurpall@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                >> --- In morelife@yahoogroups.com, "David Thomas Jackemeyer"
                >> <Olehenry1@> wrote:
                >>
                >>> "David Thomas Jackemeyer" <Olehenry1@> wrote:
                >>>
                >> <snip>
                >>
                >>> You mention intake of alcohol during fasting enhances the
                >>> potential negatives, above the impact sustained when drinking
                >>> with foods -- how much worse would you predict?
                >>>
                >> This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on
                >> several factors including of course the dose of the alcohol. Also
                >> the timing of the alcohol intake will effect its positive effects as
                >> well as its
                >> negative effects. With respect to the positive effects evidence
                >> suggests that some of the beneficial effects of moderate alcohol
                >> consumption are caused by a hormetic effect. This is among others
                >> supported by the J shaped curve that relates alcohol intake to
                >> mortality. To get the hormetic benefit the dose consumed must be
                >> large enough to cause a stress response. But if the dose is too
                >> large the harm will be more than the benefit from the stress
                >> response. This is why alcohol is only beneficial in moderation.
                >> Epidemiological studies suggest that somewhere around 10-40g of
                >> alcohol a day is the optimal
                >> dose for reduction in mortality (full text of PMID: 15006414). Note
                >> that the stress on the body from drinking a dose of alcohol spread
                >> over the day will be less than the stress of consuming it all in
                >> one dose. Thus 10g of alcohol might be enough to cause a beneficial
                >> hormetic response if drunken in a single dose while it may not be
                >> enough to cause such a response if one were to consume it in
                >> several small doses over the day, such as when spreading it over
                >> three meals.
                >> On the other hand 40g of alcohol is most likely enough to cause a
                >> beneficial hormetic response even if spread over the day. But
                >> taking 40g all at once would probably cause a stress response that
                >> is considerably higher than that needed to cause the beneficial
                >> hormetic response and might be high enough for the harmful effects
                >> to outweigh
                >> the beneficial ones. These numbers of course are just estimates and
                >> will be very individual. But note that drinking alcohol with a meal
                >> does spread the dose considerably compared to drinking it on a
                >> fasting stomach since the meal will slow down its absorption.

                [snip]

                >> This subject wasn't exactly of much interest to me
                >> since I myself do not drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I plan to
                >> in part because I dislike their taste.

                [snip]

                > I used to dislike the taste of red wine until I was a teenager but my
                > father has educated my taste and it came gradually. My wife also
                > used to dislike the taste of red wine before she met me.
                >

                Yes, like many other tastes, enjoying the taste of wine is something
                that is not generally immediate and is only acquired through usage. Many
                foods are similar in this manner. Particularly ones that a person did
                not have in hir childhood where, even if one disliked a certain food,
                the example of parents and siblings enjoying it was generally enough to
                make one try it until one liked it. Interestingly enough, I was quite
                different in this way from an early age. There were several foods that
                my parents ate regularly but that I rebelled at (much to their annoyance
                and constant efforts to get me to eat them). One of these that I have
                strong memories about from an early age was green peas. I particularly
                remember my maternal grandmother hiding the peas in mashed potatoes, but
                I would always find them and put them aside, even though I loved the
                mashed potatoes. Another interesting aspect of my childhood food
                dislikes (one of which, dill pickles, I never learned to like until I
                tried kosher style pickles at a restaurant in my mid 20s) is that I now
                like them all very much. Fortunately for me, although both of my parents
                smoked and my older brother began early (he thought he was such a
                mature person for doing so), I did not like it even though I was often
                offered puffs by my father and did try them once or twice at the start,
                and I never did smoke. In addition, even though both parents drank
                liquor of all kinds (but little dry red wine) and even enjoyed the
                feeling of being quite affected by ethanol (but they were never
                alcoholics, by any means), I have never liked the effects of ethanol on
                my brain (mainly disliking the lack of control feeling), which is why I
                have never drunk anything but wine and beer and only with meals. I used
                to occasionally drink some European style beer (which has more hops
                flavor than most US and Canadian beers) but have not had any ethanol for
                many years now since I first decided that ethanol ingestion was not
                conducive to my health and longevity. As anyone can read in the personal
                health section of MoreLife.org, it is only quite recently that I and
                Kitty began to drink about 4 oz of wine each with our one daily meal and
                about 5 oz now that we only eat 2 meals over 3 days according to the
                schedule that I posted in
                http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/morelife/message/1818

                Here is some information related to the metabollization of ethanol
                which I think is important.

                The USDA tables state that a no-name red table wine has the following
                relevant contents per 100 grams (about 102.6 ml for your 12% alcohol
                by volume wine)):

                Calories - 85
                Alcohol - 10.6
                Carbs - 2.5
                Sugar - 0.6

                It is also interesting that 100 grams of this wine also contains 127 mg
                of potassium, 105 mcg of fluoride and 5.7 mg of choline.
                I checked Merlot, Cabernet Suavignon and Pinot Noir and they are little
                different than this. OTOH, these USDA figures are likely for US wines,
                and French or other imported wines may be a little different.

                Thus your intake of 200 ml of wine adds considerable extra calories to
                your meal.

                Note: several days elapsed here (and the heading paragraph was
                rewritten as a result of the text below.


                After spending some time researching the effects of alcohol, I find so
                very many serious negatives in its metabolism, that, just as I used to
                think, it is very hard to justify a healthy and well nutritioned
                person taking it at all. Along with an enormous number of clearly
                negative effects, the only positive ones that I can find are those
                relating to epidemiological studies that a little is beneficial for
                people on standard diets, perhaps because of positive effects on
                cholesterol (but I don't need that since I use other proven and
                effective methods on my cholesterol), and that a little alcohol may
                have a hormetic effect (caused by its toxic metabolic products). This
                last, and a possibility of its positive effect on testosterone
                production and rheumatoid arthritis - http://pmid.us17185416, is the
                reason why I finally decided to drink wine at the end of 2006 (see:
                http://groups.google.com/group/alt.baldspot/browse_frm/thread/76acc3c730b78034

                However, with respect to the potential hormetic response, I am already
                getting hormetic responses from many different modalities and since
                the epidemiology relates to people on more standard regimens, the
                hormetic response from alcohol may for me and Kitty not be as
                valuable, as effective or perhaps even positively effective at all. In
                addition, my inflammatory situation is very low and I am highly
                unlikely to get rheumatoid arthritis. Finally, my low testosterone
                (because of missing one testicle lost by torsion at age 31) is having
                no negatives effects except for a somewhat lowering of libido and if I
                need more testosterone there are better ways to get it.

                As a result of the research/reconsiderations and as a trial to see if
                it is the alcohol that is causing our blood glucose to remain so
                elevated even during our long fasting periods (some of the research
                showed that alcohol may disrupt insulin production and promote insulin
                resistance ), I and Kitty are suspending our use of alcohol for at
                least a while in order to see if it is causing this effect. Even if
                not, we will likely suspend its use until we can get blood tests and
                then attempt to use blood test results to see just what effect the
                change of alcohol only is having on us.

                --Paul
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