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Re: [ModernLibrary 100 Greatest Books] Re: Howard's End

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  • Henry McFarland
    Thanks for a very interesting comment on the book. I just finished it, and I liked it very much, although it was a bit preachy at times. I have a few other
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 1, 2005
      Thanks for a very interesting comment on the book. I
      just finished it, and I liked it very much, although
      it was a bit preachy at times. I have a few other
      thoughts. Even though it is April, I hope others feel
      free to post on HE. (spoiler alert)
      S
      S
      S
      S
      S
      S
      S
      S
      S
      s
      I think the significance of the house, Howard�s End,
      was as a symbol for England�s past. Mrs. Wilcox and
      Mrs. Avery instinctively feel that the Schlegel�s
      would be better guardians of the past than the
      Wilcoxes. Thus, they both begin to maneuver to ensure
      that Margaret gets the house.
      No doubt the two older women are right, as
      demonstrated by the Wilcox�s later lack of concern for
      the house. Margaret, however, does break with one
      element of the past, and it is an element that the
      Wilcox�s want to maintain. That is the treatment of
      those who are known to have violated the generally
      accepted sexual ethics. As Forster was gay, that may
      have been a significant point to him.
      One thing unresolved, probably wisely so, was the
      extent to which Margaret got Henry Wilcox to connect.
      I think that, with some help from his son�s
      imprisonment, she eventually made a lot of progress.
      (He does not object to Helen�s presence, and he lets
      Margaret have the house.) But I was unsure how much.
      Henry

      --- radtech134100 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      > HE looks at aspects of class structure in late
      > Edwardian England.
      > Forster delves into how social class and money can
      > put barriers
      > between people and to limit their ability to
      > connect.
      >
      > HE mostly looks at two different types of the upper
      > middle class.
      > The Schlegels represent the intellectual, cultivated
      > and aesthetic.
      > The Wilcoxes represent the businessmen and
      > decision-makers. The
      > working class is reprented by the Basts and seems to
      > be used as a
      > catalyst to cause conflict between the Sclegels and
      > the Wilcoxes.
      >
      > The Schlegels each receive several hundred pounds a
      > year. This
      > money allows them the leisure time to pursue the
      > cultural activities
      > of interest to them. They live inner lives; one
      > filled with ideas.
      > The Wilcoxes represent those who live outer lives.
      > These are the
      > people who are the movers and shakers. The Wilcoxes
      > of the world
      > allow the Schlegels of the world the freedom for
      > their cultural
      > pursuits. The Basts, who represent the working
      > class, are used as a
      > pawn in order to provide the means of bringing
      > conflict between the
      > Schlegels and the Wilcoxes.
      >
      > Forster has an affinity for the Schlegels and those
      > like them and
      > the majority of the book is seen through their eyes.
      > He does a
      > credible job with the Wilcoxes and illustrating
      > their importance to
      > society. The Basts are written as colorless,
      > shadowy, and pitiable
      > people. Their purpose in the novel is to give the
      > Schlegels and the
      > Wilcoxes a dividing line. At the end of the novel,
      > Forster manages
      > to connect all three families. Margaret is watching
      > Helen romping
      > with Helen's [and Leonard's] baby at Mrs. Wilcox's
      > [now Margaret's]
      > beloved Howards End.
      >
      > --- In
      > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com, Henry
      >
      > McFarland <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Winston: Best of luck in your job search. Those
      > are
      > > always difficult.
      > >
      > > It is a fine story. At first, I thought onnly
      > connect
      > > referred to connecting across the various things
      > that
      > > divide people. (There are a lot of references to
      > > those--particularly early.) Then only connect is
      > used
      > > in a different way--to make a connection with your
      > own
      > > passions.
      > > I still have about a quarter of the book to go--it
      > is
      > > proving well worth the effort.
      > > Henry
      > > --- winstonsmith_99 <winstonsmith_99@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Henry, I'm reading and enjoying the story (very
      > > > much), but I've been
      > > > distracted with a job search. I knew for a
      > couple of
      > > > weeks before the
      > > > 18th that my job was being eliminated, and that
      > > > knowledge threw my
      > > > family into turmoil as I began a job search.
      > I'll
      > > > try to post
      > > > soemthing this week. *HE* is a very fine story,
      > and
      > > > thee is much I
      > > > could say about it.
      > > >
      > > > Winston
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In
      > > > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com,
      > > > "hecon_99"
      > > > <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > How are people finding this? I am about
      > one-third
      > > > of the way through.
      > > > > GIven that the book was written a few years
      > before
      > > > the First World
      > > > > War, I think it is interesting how being
      > > > half-German contributes to
      > > > > the Schlegel sisters being outsiders in
      > British
      > > > society to some
      > > > > extent. Also I was interested in Forster's
      > > > description of the changes
      > > > > in Germany and how their father was a type of
      > > > German that no longer
      > > > > existed.
      > > > > Henry
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > __________________________________
      > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources
      > site!
      > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
      >
      >
      >
      >



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    • radtech134100
      I agree about Mrs. Wilcox, but I think that the imprisonment of his son just made Henry give up. Cindy
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 19, 2005
        I agree about Mrs. Wilcox, but I think that the imprisonment of his
        son just made Henry give up.

        Cindy

        --- In modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com, Henry
        McFarland <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for a very interesting comment on the book. I
        > just finished it, and I liked it very much, although
        > it was a bit preachy at times. I have a few other
        > thoughts. Even though it is April, I hope others feel
        > free to post on HE. (spoiler alert)
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > S
        > s
        > I think the significance of the house, Howard's End,
        > was as a symbol for England's past. Mrs. Wilcox and
        > Mrs. Avery instinctively feel that the Schlegel's
        > would be better guardians of the past than the
        > Wilcoxes. Thus, they both begin to maneuver to ensure
        > that Margaret gets the house.
        > No doubt the two older women are right, as
        > demonstrated by the Wilcox's later lack of concern for
        > the house. Margaret, however, does break with one
        > element of the past, and it is an element that the
        > Wilcox's want to maintain. That is the treatment of
        > those who are known to have violated the generally
        > accepted sexual ethics. As Forster was gay, that may
        > have been a significant point to him.
        > One thing unresolved, probably wisely so, was the
        > extent to which Margaret got Henry Wilcox to connect.
        > I think that, with some help from his son's
        > imprisonment, she eventually made a lot of progress.
        > (He does not object to Helen's presence, and he lets
        > Margaret have the house.) But I was unsure how much.
        > Henry
        >
        > --- radtech134100 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
        > >
        > > HE looks at aspects of class structure in late
        > > Edwardian England.
        > > Forster delves into how social class and money can
        > > put barriers
        > > between people and to limit their ability to
        > > connect.
        > >
        > > HE mostly looks at two different types of the upper
        > > middle class.
        > > The Schlegels represent the intellectual, cultivated
        > > and aesthetic.
        > > The Wilcoxes represent the businessmen and
        > > decision-makers. The
        > > working class is reprented by the Basts and seems to
        > > be used as a
        > > catalyst to cause conflict between the Sclegels and
        > > the Wilcoxes.
        > >
        > > The Schlegels each receive several hundred pounds a
        > > year. This
        > > money allows them the leisure time to pursue the
        > > cultural activities
        > > of interest to them. They live inner lives; one
        > > filled with ideas.
        > > The Wilcoxes represent those who live outer lives.
        > > These are the
        > > people who are the movers and shakers. The Wilcoxes
        > > of the world
        > > allow the Schlegels of the world the freedom for
        > > their cultural
        > > pursuits. The Basts, who represent the working
        > > class, are used as a
        > > pawn in order to provide the means of bringing
        > > conflict between the
        > > Schlegels and the Wilcoxes.
        > >
        > > Forster has an affinity for the Schlegels and those
        > > like them and
        > > the majority of the book is seen through their eyes.
        > > He does a
        > > credible job with the Wilcoxes and illustrating
        > > their importance to
        > > society. The Basts are written as colorless,
        > > shadowy, and pitiable
        > > people. Their purpose in the novel is to give the
        > > Schlegels and the
        > > Wilcoxes a dividing line. At the end of the novel,
        > > Forster manages
        > > to connect all three families. Margaret is watching
        > > Helen romping
        > > with Helen's [and Leonard's] baby at Mrs. Wilcox's
        > > [now Margaret's]
        > > beloved Howards End.
        > >
        > > --- In
        > > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com, Henry
        > >
        > > McFarland <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Winston: Best of luck in your job search. Those
        > > are
        > > > always difficult.
        > > >
        > > > It is a fine story. At first, I thought onnly
        > > connect
        > > > referred to connecting across the various things
        > > that
        > > > divide people. (There are a lot of references to
        > > > those--particularly early.) Then only connect is
        > > used
        > > > in a different way--to make a connection with your
        > > own
        > > > passions.
        > > > I still have about a quarter of the book to go--it
        > > is
        > > > proving well worth the effort.
        > > > Henry
        > > > --- winstonsmith_99 <winstonsmith_99@y...> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Henry, I'm reading and enjoying the story (very
        > > > > much), but I've been
        > > > > distracted with a job search. I knew for a
        > > couple of
        > > > > weeks before the
        > > > > 18th that my job was being eliminated, and that
        > > > > knowledge threw my
        > > > > family into turmoil as I began a job search.
        > > I'll
        > > > > try to post
        > > > > soemthing this week. *HE* is a very fine story,
        > > and
        > > > > thee is much I
        > > > > could say about it.
        > > > >
        > > > > Winston
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In
        > > > > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com,
        > > > > "hecon_99"
        > > > > <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > How are people finding this? I am about
        > > one-third
        > > > > of the way through.
        > > > > > GIven that the book was written a few years
        > > before
        > > > > the First World
        > > > > > War, I think it is interesting how being
        > > > > half-German contributes to
        > > > > > the Schlegel sisters being outsiders in
        > > British
        > > > > society to some
        > > > > > extent. Also I was interested in Forster's
        > > > > description of the changes
        > > > > > in Germany and how their father was a type of
        > > > > German that no longer
        > > > > > existed.
        > > > > > Henry
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > __________________________________
        > > > Do you Yahoo!?
        > > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources
        > > site!
        > > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Yahoo! Messenger
        > Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
        > http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
      • Henry McFarland
        Certainly the imprisonment was a great blow to Henry Wilcox and it changed his attitudes to several things. I think though that he did not like Howard s End
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 21, 2005
          Certainly the imprisonment was a great blow to Henry
          Wilcox and it changed his attitudes to several things.
          I think though that he did not like Howard's End
          before that.
          Henry
          --- radtech134100 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          >
          >
          > I agree about Mrs. Wilcox, but I think that the
          > imprisonment of his
          > son just made Henry give up.
          >
          > Cindy
          >
          > --- In
          > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com, Henry
          >
          > McFarland <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Thanks for a very interesting comment on the book.
          > I
          > > just finished it, and I liked it very much,
          > although
          > > it was a bit preachy at times. I have a few other
          > > thoughts. Even though it is April, I hope others
          > feel
          > > free to post on HE. (spoiler alert)
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > S
          > > s
          > > I think the significance of the house, Howard's
          > End,
          > > was as a symbol for England's past. Mrs. Wilcox
          > and
          > > Mrs. Avery instinctively feel that the Schlegel's
          > > would be better guardians of the past than the
          > > Wilcoxes. Thus, they both begin to maneuver to
          > ensure
          > > that Margaret gets the house.
          > > No doubt the two older women are right, as
          > > demonstrated by the Wilcox's later lack of concern
          > for
          > > the house. Margaret, however, does break with one
          > > element of the past, and it is an element that the
          > > Wilcox's want to maintain. That is the treatment
          > of
          > > those who are known to have violated the generally
          > > accepted sexual ethics. As Forster was gay, that
          > may
          > > have been a significant point to him.
          > > One thing unresolved, probably wisely so, was the
          > > extent to which Margaret got Henry Wilcox to
          > connect.
          > > I think that, with some help from his son's
          > > imprisonment, she eventually made a lot of
          > progress.
          > > (He does not object to Helen's presence, and he
          > lets
          > > Margaret have the house.) But I was unsure how
          > much.
          > > Henry
          > >
          > > --- radtech134100 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > HE looks at aspects of class structure in late
          > > > Edwardian England.
          > > > Forster delves into how social class and money
          > can
          > > > put barriers
          > > > between people and to limit their ability to
          > > > connect.
          > > >
          > > > HE mostly looks at two different types of the
          > upper
          > > > middle class.
          > > > The Schlegels represent the intellectual,
          > cultivated
          > > > and aesthetic.
          > > > The Wilcoxes represent the businessmen and
          > > > decision-makers. The
          > > > working class is reprented by the Basts and
          > seems to
          > > > be used as a
          > > > catalyst to cause conflict between the Sclegels
          > and
          > > > the Wilcoxes.
          > > >
          > > > The Schlegels each receive several hundred
          > pounds a
          > > > year. This
          > > > money allows them the leisure time to pursue the
          > > > cultural activities
          > > > of interest to them. They live inner lives; one
          > > > filled with ideas.
          > > > The Wilcoxes represent those who live outer
          > lives.
          > > > These are the
          > > > people who are the movers and shakers. The
          > Wilcoxes
          > > > of the world
          > > > allow the Schlegels of the world the freedom for
          > > > their cultural
          > > > pursuits. The Basts, who represent the working
          > > > class, are used as a
          > > > pawn in order to provide the means of bringing
          > > > conflict between the
          > > > Schlegels and the Wilcoxes.
          > > >
          > > > Forster has an affinity for the Schlegels and
          > those
          > > > like them and
          > > > the majority of the book is seen through their
          > eyes.
          > > > He does a
          > > > credible job with the Wilcoxes and illustrating
          > > > their importance to
          > > > society. The Basts are written as colorless,
          > > > shadowy, and pitiable
          > > > people. Their purpose in the novel is to give
          > the
          > > > Schlegels and the
          > > > Wilcoxes a dividing line. At the end of the
          > novel,
          > > > Forster manages
          > > > to connect all three families. Margaret is
          > watching
          > > > Helen romping
          > > > with Helen's [and Leonard's] baby at Mrs.
          > Wilcox's
          > > > [now Margaret's]
          > > > beloved Howards End.
          > > >
          > > > --- In
          > > > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com,
          > Henry
          > > >
          > > > McFarland <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Winston: Best of luck in your job search.
          > Those
          > > > are
          > > > > always difficult.
          > > > >
          > > > > It is a fine story. At first, I thought onnly
          > > > connect
          > > > > referred to connecting across the various
          > things
          > > > that
          > > > > divide people. (There are a lot of references
          > to
          > > > > those--particularly early.) Then only connect
          > is
          > > > used
          > > > > in a different way--to make a connection with
          > your
          > > > own
          > > > > passions.
          > > > > I still have about a quarter of the book to
          > go--it
          > > > is
          > > > > proving well worth the effort.
          > > > > Henry
          > > > > --- winstonsmith_99 <winstonsmith_99@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Henry, I'm reading and enjoying the story
          > (very
          > > > > > much), but I've been
          > > > > > distracted with a job search. I knew for a
          > > > couple of
          > > > > > weeks before the
          > > > > > 18th that my job was being eliminated, and
          > that
          > > > > > knowledge threw my
          > > > > > family into turmoil as I began a job search.
          > > > I'll
          > > > > > try to post
          > > > > > soemthing this week. *HE* is a very fine
          > story,
          > > > and
          > > > > > thee is much I
          > > > > > could say about it.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Winston
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In
          > > > > >
          > modernlibrary100greatestbooks@yahoogroups.com,
          > > > > > "hecon_99"
          > > > > > <hecon_99@y...> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > How are people finding this? I am about
          > > > one-third
          > > > > > of the way through.
          > > > > > > GIven that the book was written a few
          > years
          >
          === message truncated ===




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