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Re: [MSM] Ethanol-better then nothing

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  • islandphish
    first, you are talking about packaging and not production of meat. Nebraska has anti-corporate farming legislation in place. our production is based on family
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 28, 2006
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      first, you are talking about packaging and not production of meat.
      Nebraska has anti-corporate farming legislation in place. our
      production is based on family farms and corps.

      as i said before ethanol is not a perfect solution and i think if you
      read you would have seen that i dont like the subsidies down the line.
      also that the trend in research is to develop sources of ethanol that
      are not grain and to make the whole process more efficient. and that
      the food value is not degraded. if you have a problem with ethanol
      that is one thing but dont compare apples and oranges. the food value
      of the feed is the same and the price does not go up after it has been
      utilized by the ethanol producers. also, the feed is still being used
      by the locals so the corn that you are getting in Arkansas is the same
      as it always has been. you know about supply and demand right? if
      the supply and demand stay the same, demand static because the grain
      retains its food value, then the price is the same.

      heh, now my sides are hurting...
      >
      > "The total energy input to produce one gallon of ethanol is 129,600
      > BTU. However, one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 76,000
      > BTU. Thus, a net energy loss of 53,600 BTU occurs for each gallon of
      > ethanol produced. Put another way, about 71% more energy is required to
      > produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy that is contained in a
      > gallon of ethanol."
      >
      > That is not progress.
      >
      > Mike
      >
    • islandphish
      an Arkansas based ... Nebraska has a corporate farming ban. that company you are talking about would be a packing company and not the same as production. The
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2006
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        an Arkansas based
        > corporation owns 8 of the largest beef and pork operations in Nebraska
        > and 5 of the biggest beef and pork operations in Kansas?
        >
        > And that same corporation is the single provider of prepackaged fresh
        > beef, pork and chicken to the Wal-Mart corporation? 70% of fresh meat
        > sold at Wal-mart stores in America comes from that single Arkansas
        > based corporation.
        >


        Nebraska has a corporate farming ban. that company you are talking
        about would be a packing company and not the same as production.

        The food value of the grains are not diminished so it is wrong to say
        that there will be less feed available and that a shortage will drive
        up prices. the feed will be used locally. the same amount will be
        needed here as before and the same amounts will be shipped out as before.

        america is ideally a free economy. family farmers do NOT have a right
        to anything, including keeping their way of life. I heard a joke the
        other day that a farmer doubled his income by setting up a second
        mailbox. even if the arkansas chicken production took a hit, i say
        let the free economy sort it out.

        the numbers you presented are faulty. they take into account things
        like the energy used in producing the tractors used to get the grain.
        an honest accounting shows that ethanol, while not perfect, does help
        with the oil problem-- is a positive in the energy factor as well as a
        huge boon to rural america. and as i said ethanol is an evolving
        science that will continue to get better

        the bottom line is that ethanol will not be driving up the price of
        chicken or pork or beef. It adds a level of usefulness to the corn
        that we are growing already and will continue to become more
        efficient. ethanol is not going to make the world end, in fact it may
        be pushing that day farther out.
      • Romar
        mike wrote: snip . ... to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy that is contained in a gallon of ethanol. ... Hmmm... how do they
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2006
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          "mike" <miketyson26@...> wrote:

          snip .
          >
          > "The total energy input to produce one gallon of ethanol is 129,600
          > BTU. However, one gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 6,000
          > BTU. Thus, a net energy loss of 53,600 BTU occurs for each gallon of
          > ethanol produced. Put another way, about 71% more energy is required
          to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy that is contained in a
          gallon of ethanol."
          >
          > That is not progress.
          >
          > Mike
          >

          Hmmm... how do they calculate the "energy" to produce a gallon of
          ethanol? Does it consider man hours - physical output of energy based
          on muscle mass of the average man or how about the cost to transport
          the grain ? Where does it start and stop and if the same caluclation
          was used to calculate how much energy it takes to produce a gallon of
          unleded gasoline what would the numbers stack up like?

          just wondering
        • mike
          ... wrote: hmmm... how do they calculate the energy to produce a gallon of ... based ... Well here is the link to the site where I found
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2006
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            --- In misc_survivalism_moderated@yahoogroups.com, "Romar"
            <romar.a.carl@...> wrote:

            hmmm... how do they calculate the "energy" to produce a gallon of
            > ethanol? Does it consider man hours - physical output of energy
            based
            > on muscle mass of the average man or how about the cost to transport
            > the grain ? Where does it start and stop and if the same caluclation
            > was used to calculate how much energy it takes to produce a gallon of
            > unleded gasoline what would the numbers stack up like?
            >
            > just wondering

            Well here is the link to the site where I found those figures. It is a
            pdf document from a very well respected school. I personally have not
            crunched the numbers but they seem to have done a fairly good job of
            it. Like I have said before, don't kill the messenger. I am just
            passing on information that I have seen and it seems credible.

            I also would like to see a comparison by unbiased people as to how
            ethanol stands up to unleaded gasoline in a head to head showdown.

            http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/Pimentel_98-2.pdf#search=

            Mike
          • islandphish
            http://www.survivalblog.com/archiveddata9.html this is the link to James Wesley Rawles SurvivalBlog.com this guy knows his stuff, he is knowledgable about a
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2006
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              http://www.survivalblog.com/archiveddata9.html

              this is the link to James Wesley Rawles SurvivalBlog.com this guy
              knows his stuff, he is knowledgable about a lot of things. I have
              linked specifically to the archive where he recommends flex-fuel
              vehicles. to find it id start at the bottom and scroll up.

              anyway if youre not already reading SurvivalBlog.com it's time to start.

              >
              > I also would like to see a comparison by unbiased people as to how
              > ethanol stands up to unleaded gasoline in a head to head showdown.
              >
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