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Chain speed Revisited: Stihl 090 versus 088

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  • fencerowphil
    Hellow and Happy New Year! I am a new member to the group. Wow, what a place to learn! In the archives I found an interesting debate on the lower rpm of the
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 4, 2002
      Hellow and Happy New Year!
      I am a new member to the group. Wow, what a place to learn!
      In the archives I found an interesting debate on the lower rpm of
      the big Stihl 090 versus the higher speeds of other saw models. Two
      contributors went to great lengths to provide useful and exact
      formulas for calculating speeds, based on sprocket tooth count and
      motor rpm.
      I have had the Will Malloff book, Chainsaw Lumbermaking for fifteen+
      years. He bases his advice around the 090 Stihl, but there are some
      specific oddities to his methods, which stand out, when compared to
      some I have run across in Fine Woodworking Mag. and in this forum.
      1. He invented a patented ripping chain, but does not
      use his early version. Instead he uses 52L Oregon,
      ground to zero degrees. This chain is a non-skip chain.
      .404 pitch. .063 gauge. He does not use scoring teeth.
      Every tooth is zero degrees.
      2. He sets the depth gauges at.045".
      That's a lot of teeth, cutting pretty deep.
      3. Finally, he uses a homemade winch assembly to literally power
      the saw through the log. (He claims to prefer the fresher
      and particulate-free air to be found at the end of
      the log, where he cranks the winch. )
      4. He seems to think of anything under 2-3' thick is small wood.
      Obviously, his philosophy for this long-stroke motor is to take full
      advantage of its superior torque, rather than think "speed of chain".
      In other words, a big engine with high torque can take a deeper slice
      of wood per tooth. I suspect that the best chain for a 12" pine on
      my soon-to-arrive Stihl 090, might be a Malloff altered style (above)
      with depth gauges ground down to .055", while a 30" oak might be
      best cut on a skip tooth with scoring cutters with depth limited
      to .035".

      Here are my questions:
      A. Do any of you use different ripping chain designs and/or use
      different depth gauge grinds to match the demands of the wood
      you are cutting? - to maximize your saw to the wood at hand?
      B. Without adapting to the lower speed of the 090 motor in this
      way, wouldn't its torque be wasted, when milling anything under
      24" thick?
      Phil L.
    • Foster's Sale
      This post covers some pretty good ground. and I m glad you asked. First let s start off with your statement I have had the Will Malloff book, Chainsaw
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 4, 2002
        This post covers some pretty good ground. and I'm glad you asked.

        First let's start off with your statement" I have had the Will Malloff book,
        Chainsaw Lumbermaking for fifteen+ years.

        This statement says a lot. Mostly that the Chain saw technology he was
        dealing with
        is now out of date, by at least 15 years.
        Chain saws back then could not turn 11,000 rpm let alone mill at that pace.
        So as always you are limited to what you have at the time.

        The 090 is a good saw, I've owned a professionally rebuilt one.
        They have a governor on them so you don't over rev them.
        There is a little flapper by the flywheel that catches the air from the
        flywheel
        and through linkage closes the choke. Operating range is around 8000rpm

        They are set up to take a large bite and work best with .404 chain as
        compared with 3/8.

        On the other hand the newer generation saws off the shelf will mill at
        10,500 to 11,000
        rpm. They work best with smaller chain, like .325, and Low Profile and a
        smaller depths
        setting on the cutters. I set mine around .025.

        The reason is if you look at your wood chips you will find that none of them
        are more than .020 thick
        and most of them are around .016. So why do you need your cutter depth set
        nearly twice as thick as
        the chips your making? This only leads to the chain binding on the bar and
        loss of power.
        And by chain binding I mean that the cutter rocks back when it takes such a
        big bite and this shortens the chain
        a very small amount. But multiply that by the number of cutters in the wood
        and your chain maybe to tight
        causing extra wear and tear of the bar and chain plus extra horsepower loss.
        This is true especially in wide cuts.

        Any way back to the newer saws. They will run with a chain speed of about
        15 feet per second more than
        the 090 and other older design saws. There are 40% more cutters in .325
        chain than are in.404 chain on the same bar,
        add that to the fact that an 088 will carry a 15 foot per second increase in
        chain speed and you can see where the new
        style saws would have an advantage in speed.

        In large hardwood trees I like to use a 2-1-2 style chain. That's 36" or
        less.
        That's 2 cutters 1 scoring and 2 cutters. It leaves a very good finish.
        In smaller Hardwood I use a full comp chain with no scoring teeth.

        In softwood and real big hardwood over 36" I use a 2-2-2 style.
        That's 2 cutters 2 scoring and 2 cutters.

        The one thing that I had wished I'd tried before I sold the 090 was a 10
        tooth 3/8
        sprocket and 63 gauge ripping chain. These are racing sprockets available
        at Madsen's
        for around $20.00. This would give around the same chain speed on the 090
        as with the 088.
        And would allow the 090 to operate in it's sweet spot.

        And for your last question," Without adapting to the lower speed of the 090
        motor in this
        way, wouldn't its torque be wasted, when milling anything under 24" thick?

        It depends on how hard you push. Honestly the answer to your question is
        yes.
        But by milling at around a 40 degree angle you can keep most of the bar in
        the wood
        and there by using the torque of the 090 to your advantage.


        Ralph





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "fencerowphil" <lphil@...>
        To: <milling@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 7:49 AM
        Subject: [milling] Chain speed Revisited: Stihl 090 versus 088


        > Hellow and Happy New Year!
        > I am a new member to the group. Wow, what a place to learn!
        > In the archives I found an interesting debate on the lower rpm of
        > the big Stihl 090 versus the higher speeds of other saw models. Two
        > contributors went to great lengths to provide useful and exact
        > formulas for calculating speeds, based on sprocket tooth count and
        > motor rpm.
        > I have had the Will Malloff book, Chainsaw Lumbermaking for fifteen+
        > years. He bases his advice around the 090 Stihl, but there are some
        > specific oddities to his methods, which stand out, when compared to
        > some I have run across in Fine Woodworking Mag. and in this forum.
        > 1. He invented a patented ripping chain, but does not
        > use his early version. Instead he uses 52L Oregon,
        > ground to zero degrees. This chain is a non-skip chain.
        > .404 pitch. .063 gauge. He does not use scoring teeth.
        > Every tooth is zero degrees.
        > 2. He sets the depth gauges at.045".
        > That's a lot of teeth, cutting pretty deep.
        > 3. Finally, he uses a homemade winch assembly to literally power
        > the saw through the log. (He claims to prefer the fresher
        > and particulate-free air to be found at the end of
        > the log, where he cranks the winch. )
        > 4. He seems to think of anything under 2-3' thick is small wood.
        > Obviously, his philosophy for this long-stroke motor is to take full
        > advantage of its superior torque, rather than think "speed of chain".
        > In other words, a big engine with high torque can take a deeper slice
        > of wood per tooth. I suspect that the best chain for a 12" pine on
        > my soon-to-arrive Stihl 090, might be a Malloff altered style (above)
        > with depth gauges ground down to .055", while a 30" oak might be
        > best cut on a skip tooth with scoring cutters with depth limited
        > to .035".
        >
        > Here are my questions:
        > A. Do any of you use different ripping chain designs and/or use
        > different depth gauge grinds to match the demands of the wood
        > you are cutting? - to maximize your saw to the wood at hand?
        > B. Without adapting to the lower speed of the 090 motor in this
        > way, wouldn't its torque be wasted, when milling anything under
        > 24" thick?
        > Phil L.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Phil Lavender
        Ralph, You were exactly the man to answer my question. I, too, had wondered about using sprocket count to rev that 090 into the modern world . A thought
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 4, 2002
          Ralph,
          You were exactly the man to answer my question. I, too, had wondered about
          using sprocket count to
          rev that 090 into the "modern world". A thought that had come to me today
          about heavy depth gauges also gave me pause: A single tooth can only carry
          so much saw dust under its fingernail. Beyond that capacity, the chain's
          ability to clear the waste wood will impede the cut.
          Phil L.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Foster's Sale" <Ralph@...>
          To: <milling@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [milling] Chain speed Revisited: Stihl 090 versus 088


          > This post covers some pretty good ground. and I'm glad you asked.
          >
          > First let's start off with your statement" I have had the Will Malloff
          book,
          > Chainsaw Lumbermaking for fifteen+ years.
          >
          > This statement says a lot. Mostly that the Chain saw technology he was
          > dealing with
          > is now out of date, by at least 15 years.
          > Chain saws back then could not turn 11,000 rpm let alone mill at that
          pace.
          > So as always you are limited to what you have at the time.
          >
          > The 090 is a good saw, I've owned a professionally rebuilt one.
          > They have a governor on them so you don't over rev them.
          > There is a little flapper by the flywheel that catches the air from the
          > flywheel
          > and through linkage closes the choke. Operating range is around 8000rpm
          >
          > They are set up to take a large bite and work best with .404 chain as
          > compared with 3/8.
          >
          > On the other hand the newer generation saws off the shelf will mill at
          > 10,500 to 11,000
          > rpm. They work best with smaller chain, like .325, and Low Profile and a
          > smaller depths
          > setting on the cutters. I set mine around .025.
          >
          > The reason is if you look at your wood chips you will find that none of
          them
          > are more than .020 thick
          > and most of them are around .016. So why do you need your cutter depth
          set
          > nearly twice as thick as
          > the chips your making? This only leads to the chain binding on the bar
          and
          > loss of power.
          > And by chain binding I mean that the cutter rocks back when it takes such
          a
          > big bite and this shortens the chain
          > a very small amount. But multiply that by the number of cutters in the
          wood
          > and your chain maybe to tight
          > causing extra wear and tear of the bar and chain plus extra horsepower
          loss.
          > This is true especially in wide cuts.
          >
          > Any way back to the newer saws. They will run with a chain speed of about
          > 15 feet per second more than
          > the 090 and other older design saws. There are 40% more cutters in .325
          > chain than are in.404 chain on the same bar,
          > add that to the fact that an 088 will carry a 15 foot per second increase
          in
          > chain speed and you can see where the new
          > style saws would have an advantage in speed.
          >
          > In large hardwood trees I like to use a 2-1-2 style chain. That's 36" or
          > less.
          > That's 2 cutters 1 scoring and 2 cutters. It leaves a very good finish.
          > In smaller Hardwood I use a full comp chain with no scoring teeth.
          >
          > In softwood and real big hardwood over 36" I use a 2-2-2 style.
          > That's 2 cutters 2 scoring and 2 cutters.
          >
          > The one thing that I had wished I'd tried before I sold the 090 was a 10
          > tooth 3/8
          > sprocket and 63 gauge ripping chain. These are racing sprockets available
          > at Madsen's
          > for around $20.00. This would give around the same chain speed on the 090
          > as with the 088.
          > And would allow the 090 to operate in it's sweet spot.
          >
          > And for your last question," Without adapting to the lower speed of the
          090
          > motor in this
          > way, wouldn't its torque be wasted, when milling anything under 24"
          thick?
          >
          > It depends on how hard you push. Honestly the answer to your question is
          > yes.
          > But by milling at around a 40 degree angle you can keep most of the bar in
          > the wood
          > and there by using the torque of the 090 to your advantage.
          >
          >
          > Ralph
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "fencerowphil" <lphil@...>
          > To: <milling@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 7:49 AM
          > Subject: [milling] Chain speed Revisited: Stihl 090 versus 088
          >
          >
          > > Hellow and Happy New Year!
          > > I am a new member to the group. Wow, what a place to learn!
          > > In the archives I found an interesting debate on the lower rpm of
          > > the big Stihl 090 versus the higher speeds of other saw models. Two
          > > contributors went to great lengths to provide useful and exact
          > > formulas for calculating speeds, based on sprocket tooth count and
          > > motor rpm.
          > > I have had the Will Malloff book, Chainsaw Lumbermaking for fifteen+
          > > years. He bases his advice around the 090 Stihl, but there are some
          > > specific oddities to his methods, which stand out, when compared to
          > > some I have run across in Fine Woodworking Mag. and in this forum.
          > > 1. He invented a patented ripping chain, but does not
          > > use his early version. Instead he uses 52L Oregon,
          > > ground to zero degrees. This chain is a non-skip chain.
          > > .404 pitch. .063 gauge. He does not use scoring teeth.
          > > Every tooth is zero degrees.
          > > 2. He sets the depth gauges at.045".
          > > That's a lot of teeth, cutting pretty deep.
          > > 3. Finally, he uses a homemade winch assembly to literally power
          > > the saw through the log. (He claims to prefer the fresher
          > > and particulate-free air to be found at the end of
          > > the log, where he cranks the winch. )
          > > 4. He seems to think of anything under 2-3' thick is small wood.
          > > Obviously, his philosophy for this long-stroke motor is to take full
          > > advantage of its superior torque, rather than think "speed of chain".
          > > In other words, a big engine with high torque can take a deeper slice
          > > of wood per tooth. I suspect that the best chain for a 12" pine on
          > > my soon-to-arrive Stihl 090, might be a Malloff altered style (above)
          > > with depth gauges ground down to .055", while a 30" oak might be
          > > best cut on a skip tooth with scoring cutters with depth limited
          > > to .035".
          > >
          > > Here are my questions:
          > > A. Do any of you use different ripping chain designs and/or use
          > > different depth gauge grinds to match the demands of the wood
          > > you are cutting? - to maximize your saw to the wood at hand?
          > > B. Without adapting to the lower speed of the 090 motor in this
          > > way, wouldn't its torque be wasted, when milling anything under
          > > 24" thick?
          > > Phil L.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
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