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Re: mill/drill differences....moot point on HF

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  • ballendo@yahoo.com
    L E, I had heard that the 2119 was possibly being discontinued by HF... That is part of why I ve been pushing the fact that it s an RF! Be assured, they are
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 10, 2001
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      L E,

      I had heard that the 2119 was possibly being discontinued by HF...

      That is part of why I've been pushing the fact that it's an RF! Be
      assured, they are still in the HF stores' warehouses... But maybe not
      for long?

      If/when they are gone, the choice becomes Jet, Enco, and Grizzly. The
      grizzly has more X travel than the other two, due to its' larger
      table, 32"x9-1/4".

      Hope this helps.

      Ballendo


      --- In mill_drill@y..., "Ed Smith" <lesmith@d...> wrote:
      > H.F. has evidently discontinued the 2119. I can't get it to come
      up on the
      > search engine any more. I did print out the sheet about 3 weeks
      ago when it
      > was still available. <snip>
    • StarsWatch@aol.com
      ... not ... The ... ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ It seems to me that I read that HF said that the # 2119 and its siblings were far more likely to be
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 11, 2001
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        --- In mill_drill@y..., ballendo@y... wrote:
        > L E,
        >
        > I had heard that the 2119 was possibly being discontinued by HF...
        >
        > That is part of why I've been pushing the fact that it's an RF! Be
        > assured, they are still in the HF stores' warehouses... But maybe
        not
        > for long?
        >
        > If/when they are gone, the choice becomes Jet, Enco, and Grizzly.
        The
        > grizzly has more X travel than the other two, due to its' larger
        > table, 32"x9-1/4".
        >
        > Hope this helps.
        >
        > Ballendo
        >
        ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][

        It seems to me that I read that HF said that the # 2119 and its
        siblings were far more likely to be returned than the newer 1.5hp
        Gear Head milling machine # 42827. . .

        Sooo like does anyone have one of these puppies?
        Do ya like it? Did ya trade in a RF30 for it?
        Would ya ever think of trading in your RF30 for one?

        Heres the thing, I'm at the end of my breaker boxes capacity. And I'm
        worried that the 2hp. RF30's motor with its 22 amp start up draw,
        will be tripping my shops 15 amp breakers. As I said I'm maxed out as
        it is now with the 15 amp breakers. So while I've planned to get a
        2hp. RF30 I'm not sure that its such a good idea given my power
        shortage . . . And my electrician buddy only comes around my shop
        when I'm not there, not a good sign I'm sure. . .

        If ya haven't looked at the Big HF Geared Head mill here's some
        specs.:

        fine downfeed adjustment wheel for .002'' spindle adjustments. Head
        swivels from centerline +/- 45° horizontally and tilts +/- 45°
        vertically, R-8 taper

        Swing: 20''; Drill capacity: 1-1/4'' steel
        End mill capacity: 3/4''
        Tapping capacity: 1/4''
        Spindle stroke: 5''
        Spindle to table: 17-3/4''
        Horsepower: 1.5
        Motor: 110V, 15 amps, 1 phase
        6 Spindle speeds: 95, 175, 310, 450, 850, 1500 RPM
        Table size: 27-1/2''L x 8-1/4''W
        Y-travel: 6-13/16''
        X-travel: 19-13/16''

        Price $999.99 free shipping & no sales tax. May make it a better buy
        in my case. Any opinions?
      • HATZIE@fuse.net
        I ordered the 2119-2VGA 3 weeks ago online and recieved a postcard saying it was backordered with no definite date on the end of the backorder. Saturday I
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 11, 2001
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          I ordered the 2119-2VGA 3 weeks ago online and recieved a
          postcard saying it was backordered with no definite date on the end
          of the backorder. Saturday I took my printed order confirmaton and
          bought it for the $849.99 price at the HF store in Lexington KY (now
          I have to cancel the backordered mill). The word I got was that the
          2119 is no longer a "catalog Item" it is only available in the retail
          stores. I believe it is still on sale for $899.99 (still a heck of a
          deal) in the stores but I don't know how long.
          The crate was noticeably different from Jeff Swayzes' 33686 1.5hp
          mill drill as this isn't made of the cheapest splintered balsa wood
          available. The castings on first glance don't look to be real rough
          and filled with Bondo like the 33686 either. Not to put the 33686
          machine down it is a very capable 1.5hp machine. Just
          not "asthetically appealing" ;-P, and not 2HP.
          The shipping papers stapled to the outside of my crate listed
          Tiawan R.O.C. as the orgination point not P.R. China. When I opened
          it and got out my instructions the first page says "Central
          Machinery RF31"... The fit and finish look to be what I associate
          with RF and JET not what I expected to see from HF. So I am very
          happy with it.... I think I got a heck of a deal RF for HF prices.
          Are the 2119 mills likely to be availible in the stores long
          term? I doubt it. I agree with Ed. Central Machinery is probably
          the HF machine tool import facilitator in Aisia. The next batch of
          Central Machinery 2hp mill drills you see in the catalog or on the
          website may come from a completely different supplier.... If they do
          I would bet that they will also have a different SKU number
          associated with them. The 2119 is probably associted with this
          RF30/31 production overrun from Rong Fu.
          I'll let everyone know how tings go <g>.

          David Hatzenbuhler
          Cincinnati OH

          --- In mill_drill@y..., "Ed Smith" <lesmith@d...> wrote:
          > H.F. has evidently discontinued the 2119. I can't get it to come
          up on the
          > search engine any more. I did print out the sheet about 3 weeks
          ago when it
          > was still available. It said nothing about location of manufacture
          other
          > than : Manufacturer: Central Machinery. I'm of the opinion that
          the only
          > thing "Central Machinery" manufactures is data plates and that the
          buyers
          > shop around for no-name or over-runs on brand name items and slap
          their data
          > plate on it.
          >
          > L E Smith
          > Salisbury, MD 21801
          >
          > lesmith@d...
          > lesmith_52@h...
          >
          >
          > Let's encourage Pres. Bush to undo all the crap Slick Willie did.
        • Renner, Corey
          I was interested in a gearhead mill as well. The Enco version was backordered for months, as was the HF version. I wound up buying an RF30 because it was
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 11, 2001
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            I was interested in a gearhead mill as well. The Enco version was
            backordered for months, as was the HF version. I wound up buying an RF30
            because it was easier to get, easier to maintain (belts instead of gears,
            more common motor style, etc) and it has more available speeds.

            cheers,
            c

            <snip>
            It seems to me that I read that HF said that the # 2119 and its
            siblings were far more likely to be returned than the newer 1.5hp
            Gear Head milling machine # 42827. . .

            Sooo like does anyone have one of these puppies?
            Do ya like it? Did ya trade in a RF30 for it?
            Would ya ever think of trading in your RF30 for one?

            Heres the thing, I'm at the end of my breaker boxes capacity. And I'm
            worried that the 2hp. RF30's motor with its 22 amp start up draw,
            will be tripping my shops 15 amp breakers. As I said I'm maxed out as
            it is now with the 15 amp breakers. So while I've planned to get a
            2hp. RF30 I'm not sure that its such a good idea given my power
            shortage . . . And my electrician buddy only comes around my shop
            when I'm not there, not a good sign I'm sure. . .

            If ya haven't looked at the Big HF Geared Head mill here's some
            specs.:

            fine downfeed adjustment wheel for .002'' spindle adjustments. Head
            swivels from centerline +/- 45° horizontally and tilts +/- 45°
            vertically, R-8 taper

            Swing: 20''; Drill capacity: 1-1/4'' steel
            End mill capacity: 3/4''
            Tapping capacity: 1/4''
            Spindle stroke: 5''
            Spindle to table: 17-3/4''
            Horsepower: 1.5
            Motor: 110V, 15 amps, 1 phase
            6 Spindle speeds: 95, 175, 310, 450, 850, 1500 RPM
            Table size: 27-1/2''L x 8-1/4''W
            Y-travel: 6-13/16''
            X-travel: 19-13/16''

            Price $999.99 free shipping & no sales tax. May make it a better buy
            in my case. Any opinions?
          • ballendo@yahoo.com
            Hello, I don t like the gear head machines. Would not trade a rf30 for one, no way. I like having more speeds, even if I have to change a belt to get em. And
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 11, 2001
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              Hello,

              I don't like the gear head machines. Would not trade a rf30 for one,
              no way. I like having more speeds, even if I have to change a belt to
              get 'em. And I've seen too many posts about gear train noise and
              problems...

              From your spec list, I've got a concern/question. The rf30 has a 30
              inch table (or 32" from grizzly). From stop to stop (mechanical
              casting limits, where the leadscrew mount casting(s) hits the base
              casting) I have 19-3/4 travel. Since my table is 2-1/2 inches longer,
              does this mean the base on the gear machine is 2-1/2 inches
              narrower?!?

              I run on 20 amp circuits, no problem. But , I'd be leary of 15Amp.
              However, you could rewire the rf30 to 220V pretty easily, then the
              ampacity you have available will be fine. Having an electrician
              buddy, this is a no-brainer, IMO.

              Hope this helps.

              ballendo

              > It seems to me that I read that HF said that the # 2119 and its
              > siblings were far more likely to be returned than the newer 1.5hp
              > Gear Head milling machine # 42827. . .
              >
              > Sooo like does anyone have one of these puppies?
              > Do ya like it? Did ya trade in a RF30 for it?
              > Would ya ever think of trading in your RF30 for one?
              >
              > Heres the thing, I'm at the end of my breaker boxes capacity. And
              I'm
              > worried that the 2hp. RF30's motor with its 22 amp start up draw,
              > will be tripping my shops 15 amp breakers. As I said I'm maxed out
              as
              > it is now with the 15 amp breakers. So while I've planned to get a
              > 2hp. RF30 I'm not sure that its such a good idea given my power
              > shortage . . . And my electrician buddy only comes around my shop
              > when I'm not there, not a good sign I'm sure. . .
              >
              > If ya haven't looked at the Big HF Geared Head mill here's some
              > specs.:
              >
              > fine downfeed adjustment wheel for .002'' spindle adjustments. Head
              > swivels from centerline +/- 45° horizontally and tilts +/- 45°
              > vertically, R-8 taper
              >
              > Swing: 20''; Drill capacity: 1-1/4'' steel
              > End mill capacity: 3/4''
              > Tapping capacity: 1/4''
              > Spindle stroke: 5''
              > Spindle to table: 17-3/4''
              > Horsepower: 1.5
              > Motor: 110V, 15 amps, 1 phase
              > 6 Spindle speeds: 95, 175, 310, 450, 850, 1500 RPM
              > Table size: 27-1/2''L x 8-1/4''W
              > Y-travel: 6-13/16''
              > X-travel: 19-13/16''
              >
              > Price $999.99 free shipping & no sales tax. May make it a better
              buy in my case. Any opinions?
            • StarsWatch@aol.com
              ... Hey Ballendo. . . This is pretty much what I though I d hear. Thanks! ... I don t have a clue. ... Hmmm problem is it takes two 110V legs to make 220V. . .
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 11, 2001
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                --- In mill_drill@y..., ballendo@y... wrote:
                > Hello,
                >
                > I don't like the gear head machines. Would not trade a rf30 for
                > one, no way. I like having more speeds, even if I have to change a
                > belt to get 'em. And I've seen too many posts about gear train
                > noise and problems...

                Hey Ballendo. . . This is pretty much what I though I'd hear.
                Thanks!
                __________________________

                > From your spec list, I've got a concern/question. The rf30 has a 30
                > inch table (or 32" from grizzly). From stop to stop (mechanical
                > casting limits, where the leadscrew mount casting(s) hits the base
                > casting) I have 19-3/4 travel. Since my table is 2-1/2 inches
                > longer, does this mean the base on the gear machine is 2-1/2 inches
                > narrower?!?

                I don't have a clue.
                ___________________________

                > I run on 20 amp circuits, no problem. But , I'd be leary of 15Amp.
                > However, you could rewire the rf30 to 220V pretty easily, then the
                > ampacity you have available will be fine. Having an electrician
                > buddy, this is a no-brainer, IMO.

                Hmmm problem is it takes two 110V legs to make 220V. . . And if I had
                a spare 110V leg then I wouldn't have any problems. . .

                As for the breakers, that's one thing that I'm trying to get
                with my electrician about. To find out if I have enough capacity left
                to change out a 110V 15 amp breaker for a 20 amp one. I guess I could
                turn off everything but the mill and the CD player. . . Hey I can
                work in the dark but I gotta have tunes!!!


                Again thanks Ballendo for your view on the Gear Head Mill.

                Later, Roger_aaaws
              • ballendo@yahoo.com
                Roger, The breaker rating should NOT be changed! UNLESS you ALSO change the wiring in the circuit! A 15A breaker will have #14 wire. A 20A circuit will have
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 12, 2001
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                  Roger,

                  The breaker rating should NOT be changed! UNLESS you ALSO change the
                  wiring in the circuit! A 15A breaker will have #14 wire. A 20A
                  circuit will have #12. (In the USA) Breakers exist to prevent
                  fires... If you over-rate the breaker, the "too small" wire heats up
                  instead of the "bit" inside the breaker "designed to do so..."

                  You can get a "twin" 15A breaker which will fit in the space of one
                  standard 15A breaker. If you get two of these, you have the
                  possibility of 4 15A circuits, in the "box space" which formerly held
                  only two. Reconnect the previously existing circuits to the
                  two "outer" breakers of the 4 installed... This will leave the
                  two "inner" to be used for your 15A,220v circuit! Be sure to tie the
                  two 'inners' together with a clip or wire through the holes in the
                  toggles, so that if one side of the 220 trips, the other does also.

                  Hope this helps.

                  Ballendo

                  P.S. while this is a nice way to "add" one or two circuits, be
                  careful! Distribution boxes are designed for total load and by doing
                  this, you are cheating a little. If it's a shop circuit, and you
                  don't try to do everything at once (or others inside the house WHILE
                  you are in the shop) you'll be fine. Run this by your electrical
                  buddy and see what he says... He'll know more about "local" issues.

                  > As for the breakers, that's one thing that I'm trying to get
                  > with my electrician about. To find out if I have enough capacity
                  left
                  > to change out a 110V 15 amp breaker for a 20 amp one. I guess I
                  could
                  > turn off everything but the mill and the CD player. . . Hey I can
                  > work in the dark but I gotta have tunes!!!
                  >
                  >
                  > Again thanks Ballendo for your view on the Gear Head Mill.
                  >
                  > Later, Roger_aaaws
                • Ken
                  You could run your CD player on battery and ware a miners light. That might get the extra 5 amps you need. Ken av8or@citizen.infi.net
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 12, 2001
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                    You could run your CD player on battery and ware a miners light.  That might get the extra 5 amps you need.
                     

                    Ken
                    av8or@...
                    kring@...
                    av8or_cfi@...

                     
                     
                     Hmmm problem is it takes two 110V legs to make 220V. . . And if I had
                    a spare 110V leg then I wouldn't have any problems. . . 

                    As for the breakers, that's one thing that I'm trying to get
                    with my electrician about. To find out if I have enough capacity left
                    to change out a 110V 15 amp breaker for a 20 amp one. I guess I could
                    turn off everything but the mill and the CD player. . . Hey I can
                    work in the dark but I gotta have tunes!!!


                    Again thanks Ballendo for your view on the Gear Head Mill.

                    Later, Roger_aaaws






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                  • StarsWatch@aol.com
                    Hi Ballendo Thanks for the info… What I have basically is 100amp service at my shop. This takes the form of one 220V 50amp circuit, that supports, about at
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 15, 2001
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                      Hi Ballendo

                      Thanks for the info… What I have basically is 100amp service at
                      my shop. This takes the form of one 220V 50amp circuit, that
                      supports, about at max output 45 amps of MIG & air compressor.
                      (Rarely ever used at the same time) and one 220V 40 amp circuit, that
                      supports around 40 amps of TIG and Plasma torch (Never used at the
                      same time). This leaves only one 110V circuit that I now find already
                      has a 20 amp breaker installed. . .
                      This seems to exceed the total available 100 amp service. But as I
                      said I'm never using everything at once. So as I just found that
                      what I though was a 110V 15 amp circuit is really a 20 amp circuit I
                      guess that I'm good to go! . . . well except that this circuit
                      also
                      powers 80 watts of neon lighting. . . No biggie I'm mostly in the
                      dark anyway :)!
                      But since I will never be running everything at ful power I see no
                      reason that I can't add another 220V 20 amp line just for the
                      mill.
                      Unless theres something in the code about it.

                      P.S. odd but both the 220V circuits have double breakers installed.
                      i.e. 2 x 40amp, 2 x 50amp breakers. I guess that's just how they
                      made 220V in the box. But is seems out of place to me as I've seen
                      plenty of other boxes that have only a single breaker on each of
                      their 220V circuits.

                      P.M.S. Hey I checked the amp input on the 2hp motor on the 2119 at
                      H.F. (it's just up the street from me!!!) and it was rated at 16
                      amps @ 110V & 8 amps @ 220V. . . I though that this motor had a 22
                      amp max draw @ 110V. Was I wrong?, is there more than one ver. Of
                      this motor, I guess that there probably are several vendors that
                      they get motors from. . .

                      Later, Roger_aaaws

                      --- In mill_drill@y..., ballendo@y... wrote:
                      > Roger,
                      >
                      > The breaker rating should NOT be changed! UNLESS you ALSO change
                      the
                      > wiring in the circuit! A 15A breaker will have #14 wire. A 20A
                      > circuit will have #12. (In the USA) Breakers exist to prevent
                      > fires... If you over-rate the breaker, the "too small" wire heats
                      up
                      > instead of the "bit" inside the breaker "designed to do so..."
                      >
                      > You can get a "twin" 15A breaker which will fit in the space of one
                      > standard 15A breaker. If you get two of these, you have the
                      > possibility of 4 15A circuits, in the "box space" which formerly
                      held
                      > only two. Reconnect the previously existing circuits to the
                      > two "outer" breakers of the 4 installed... This will leave the
                      > two "inner" to be used for your 15A,220v circuit! Be sure to tie
                      the
                      > two 'inners' together with a clip or wire through the holes in the
                      > toggles, so that if one side of the 220 trips, the other does also.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps.
                      >
                      > Ballendo
                      >
                      > P.S. while this is a nice way to "add" one or two circuits, be
                      > careful! Distribution boxes are designed for total load and by
                      doing
                      > this, you are cheating a little. > > Later, Roger_aaaws
                    • dennis pantazis
                      you kinda have the right idea about power distribution: what is used concurrently, etc.... but remember you are also limited by wire size ( i think that
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 15, 2001
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                        you kinda have the right idea about power distribution: what is used concurrently, etc.... but remember you are also limited by wire size ( i think that someone pointed this out already).
                         
                        typically engineers will total the draw from all the circuits and size the service for 2/3 of it. its a engineering judgement based on propability and experience. this is a general rule of thumb, not to be interpreted as a hard and fast rule. obviously for industrial/manuf that fraction approaches 3/4 to 1.
                         
                        IF YOU ARE AT ALL UNSURE OF YOUR ABILITY OR HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS HIRE AN ELECTRICIAN! If you know a mechanical/electrical engineer, they could help you too.  
                         
                        if i understand your setup, you have 100 am service going to your shop. you don;t say if this is a sub panel from another panel or the only panel from a main electric company service, its important to distinct.
                         
                        your panel has 6-8 positions?
                        do you have a main breaker ?
                        do you have any other 110v circuits for outlets?
                         
                        1 50A 2 Pole for the mig/air compressor
                        1 40A 2P for the plasma and tig
                        1 20A 1P for mill. 
                         
                        the 2 Pole breakers are bonded, that is they work together as one device.  
                         
                        if your panel is a sub-panel, you can change the panel to a main lug only panel, one w/o a main breaker because you can disconnect the power from the feeding panel. that will give you 2 more positions. of its the only panel, then i suggest that you change it to a larger one. either way, swapping out a panel is a minor expense if you can get the same series panel and reuse your breakers.
                         
                        to put it into perspective, i brought a new 100A service into my garage (service before was a 14ga ext cord burried in the dirt by previuos owner). 12 Position Panel and breakers similar to what you have was ~$100. As i know how to do this, the labor was free. Conduit, devices (outlets, boxes, plates, etc) and wire was another ~150-200.  Once the service wires were roughed to the panel, it took a weekend to place conduit, pull wire and terminate devices.
                         
                        Again, if you have any question about doing ANY of this, call an electrician. I would expect to pay them 300-400 to redo it all from scratch.
                        hope this helps.
                        dennis 
                      • Ken
                        Dennis, You said that if your panel was a sub panel you could remove the main breaker. Better check with local zoning before you do that. Also it was brought
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 15, 2001
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                          Dennis,
                           
                          You said that if your panel was a sub panel you could remove the main breaker.  Better check with local zoning before you do that.  Also it was brought out on another list I am on that an without proper inspections and permits you could possibly void your homeowners insurance.
                           

                          Ken
                          av8or@...
                          kring@...
                          av8or_cfi@...

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: dennis pantazis [mailto:dpantazis@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:37 PM
                          To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [mill_drill] extra breakers/circuits wasRe: mill/drill differences....moot point on HF

                          you kinda have the right idea about power distribution: what is used concurrently, etc.... but remember you are also limited by wire size ( i think that someone pointed this out already).
                           
                          typically engineers will total the draw from all the circuits and size the service for 2/3 of it. its a engineering judgement based on propability and experience. this is a general rule of thumb, not to be interpreted as a hard and fast rule. obviously for industrial/manuf that fraction approaches 3/4 to 1.
                           
                          IF YOU ARE AT ALL UNSURE OF YOUR ABILITY OR HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS HIRE AN ELECTRICIAN! If you know a mechanical/electrical engineer, they could help you too.  
                           
                          if i understand your setup, you have 100 am service going to your shop. you don;t say if this is a sub panel from another panel or the only panel from a main electric company service, its important to distinct.
                           
                          your panel has 6-8 positions?
                          do you have a main breaker ?
                          do you have any other 110v circuits for outlets?
                           
                          1 50A 2 Pole for the mig/air compressor
                          1 40A 2P for the plasma and tig
                          1 20A 1P for mill. 
                           
                          the 2 Pole breakers are bonded, that is they work together as one device.  
                           
                          if your panel is a sub-panel, you can change the panel to a main lug only panel, one w/o a main breaker because you can disconnect the power from the feeding panel. that will give you 2 more positions. of its the only panel, then i suggest that you change it to a larger one. either way, swapping out a panel is a minor expense if you can get the same series panel and reuse your breakers.
                           
                          to put it into perspective, i brought a new 100A service into my garage (service before was a 14ga ext cord burried in the dirt by previuos owner). 12 Position Panel and breakers similar to what you have was ~$100. As i know how to do this, the labor was free. Conduit, devices (outlets, boxes, plates, etc) and wire was another ~150-200.  Once the service wires were roughed to the panel, it took a weekend to place conduit, pull wire and terminate devices.
                           
                          Again, if you have any question about doing ANY of this, call an electrician. I would expect to pay them 300-400 to redo it all from scratch.
                          hope this helps.
                          dennis 


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                        • ballendo@yahoo.com
                          Roger, The single breakers you saw on 220 were just made differently: A single toggle acting on BOTH legs of the circuit inside the breawker body. You do the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 15, 2001
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                            Roger,

                            The "single breakers" you saw on 220 were just made differently: A
                            single toggle acting on BOTH legs of the circuit inside the breawker
                            body. You do the same thing when you have two toggles by tying them
                            together (into one!). If this was not done on your "box", it needs to
                            be!

                            Not close to my M/D motor(s) just now to check, but it seems
                            reasonable that different motors could have been used over time...

                            The MAX draw will exceed the rating on the nameplate (sometimes by a
                            factor of 3 or 4!) during starting. It's only for a short time so no
                            need to worry. But good to be aware, since if the "rest" of the line
                            is "full", the motor may stay in this startup condition (drawing, or
                            rather trying to draw) LOTS of current. Point is, at startup of the
                            mill spindle, it's good to have as little else running on the same
                            circuit(s) when you don't have "amps to spare".

                            Hope this helps.

                            Ballendo

                            P.S. best to have a local electrician deal with code issues...


                            > P.S. odd but both the 220V circuits have double breakers
                            installed.
                            > i.e. 2 x 40amp, 2 x 50amp breakers. I guess that's just how they
                            > made 220V in the box. But is seems out of place to me as I've seen
                            > plenty of other boxes that have only a single breaker on each of
                            > their 220V circuits.
                            >
                            > P.M.S. Hey I checked the amp input on the 2hp motor on the 2119 at
                            > H.F. (it's just up the street from me!!!) and it was rated at 16
                            > amps @ 110V & 8 amps @ 220V. . . I though that this motor had a 22
                            > amp max draw @ 110V. Was I wrong?, is there more than one ver. Of
                            > this motor, I guess that there probably are several vendors that
                            > they get motors from. . .
                            >
                            > Later, Roger_aaaws
                          • dennis pantazis
                            let me state this right off: as a design professional (read professional engineer) i do not propose, promote or condone doing work outside the observation of
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 15, 2001
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                              let me state this right off: as a design professional (read professional engineer) i do not propose, promote or condone doing work outside the observation of the building and zoning officals. codes and regs are there for a reason. your permit fee is like insurance towards safe and competant work. pull your permits and pay your fees. you do not nescesarrily need an engineer to design a service upgrade. a competant electrician can pull the permit and do the work. <soapbox off>
                                
                              i see how my first response could have been a bit misleading. it is usually NOT possible to convert a main breaker panel to a main lug only panel, they wire differently. i intended to mean that IF your shop panel is fed from another panel like the main service panel in your basement, you could change out the remote panel to a main lug only of the same manufacture to save on the breakers and get more positions.
                               
                              since you say this panel is the main service panel to your shop, i understand that you to mean that this panel is the main service panel to you shop (? business).
                               
                              roger, for the record, can you clarify what is is?
                               
                              if it is the ONLY service panel, then yes, it sounds like you are in for some pricey work.. here is why.
                               
                              the 60hz, AC single phase power drop from the power company is actually 2 phases, 2- 110 volt legs. imagine a sine wave, 60 hz, 110v amplitude. each wave is 120 degrees apart.
                               
                              inside your panel box/fuse box you have 2 vertical rows of devices, numbered by columns 1,3,5,7,9,11... & 2,4,6,8,10,12....
                              on the center, behind those devices there are two copper buss bars.the buss bar looks like 2 meshing combs. each finger of the comb is 110 volt tap. the taps as you go vertically down alternate so that any every other one is connected to the other buss bar.
                              in ascii text graphics:
                               
                              1  A B  2
                              3  B A  4
                              5  A B  6
                              7  B A  8
                               
                              to get a 110 volt circuit, the breaker connects to one of those taps.
                               
                              to get 220v you tap two adjacent taps, each 110 volts. that is why 220v brakers are 2 pole, and appear bonded across the switch. they look like 2 breakers side by side. you can not get 220v from only one breaker position with single phase service.
                               
                              before you even ask....YOU CAN NOT MAKE A 220 VOLT CIRCUIT BY WIRING TO 2 SEPERATE BREAKERS! 2 pole breakers have a joined mechanism inside the device, set up so the mechanisms trip TOGETHER, not by the throws.
                               
                              to change out the panel, you need to disconnect the service. no other way about it. if you go to that expense, then you might as well upgrade your service. as you have found out, its not a cheap thing.
                               
                              the power comapny charges you for service upgrade because they have to change the service wires from the pole to the building. then you have to change the meter socket and propably the conduit from the meter socket to the panel. then you have to add a junction box to spilce the wires. this can be a pain (read very labor intensive). you are not allowed to splice inside a panel box. its a BIG no-no.  if you only have to pull the meter to do some work they charge for that too. some one has to come out, pull the meter. they either wait for the work to happen inside or come back to reconnect. ask you electrician how this works.
                               
                              next best thing: if you truly have only 1 100A panel, ask your electrician to explain to you about adding a sub panel. you would in essence put a new panel near the old one. he should be able to tell you if adding a subpanel is code legal and if possible. he would replace one of the 220v breakers with like a 70A or  80A breaker in the old panel to feed the new panel, and install new devices in there. he would then have to rewire the displaced circuit to the new panel. if he can get a panel that is compatible with your existing one, then he can reuse the breakers he displaces. otherwise, you have to buy a new breaker for the old panel and buy current panel and breakers.
                               
                              my work here (chicago) was all under one permit to upgrade from 60 amp service to 200. i payed comed  $450 for new service drop (on the contract they actually credited me back $0.20/ft for the old wire). my permit was to upgrade the main house panel and install a sub panel in the garage. for residential the fee was $50.  the city is propably socking it to you because you are an commercial/industrial customer. i suggest you talk to your landlord about paying for most of it. you are upgrading the space. if you are the landlord, well  its all up to you. upgrading the service is no small undertaking.
                               
                              ADVICE: if you are going to have any work done, and you are unsure of the price, get a 2nd or even a 3rd estimate. this is real money we are talking about.
                               
                              good luck.
                               
                              dennis
                               
                               
                               
                            • ballendo@yahoo.com
                              Dennis, Are you sure? I have seen this done by licensed electricians for years... Was ready to fire off a yes you can! post, and decided to look through the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                Dennis,

                                Are you sure? I have seen this done by licensed electricians for
                                years...

                                Was ready to fire off a "yes you can!" post, and decided to look
                                through the NEC first. pertinent part (article 240, overcurrent
                                devices) posted below:

                                *(b) Circuit Breaker as Overcurrent Device. Circuit breakers shall
                                *open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit unless otherwise
                                *permitted in (1), (2), or (3).
                                *1. Except where limited by Section 210-4(b), individual single-pole
                                *circuit breakers, with or without approved handle ties, shall be
                                *permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of
                                *multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase, line-to-
                                *neutral loads.
                                *>2. In grounded systems, individual single-pole circuit breakers
                                *with approved handle ties shall be permitted as the protection for
                                *each ungrounded conductor for line-to-line connected loads for
                                *single-phase circuits or 3-wire, direct-current circuits.

                                So article 240-b2 seems to support the original assertion that single
                                pole circuit breakers CAN be used in a 230V (line to line) circuit!
                                (with approved HANDLE ties)

                                Comments?

                                Ballendo

                                P.S. Other possible items of interest: 225-33b,230-73a&b,210-4b,240-8

                                <snip> before you even ask....YOU CAN NOT MAKE A 220 VOLT CIRCUIT BY
                                >WIRING TO 2 SEPARATE BREAKERS! 2 pole breakers have a joined
                                >mechanism inside the device, set up so the mechanisms trip TOGETHER,
                                >not by the throws.
                                >dennis
                              • dennis pantazis
                                you are an idiot. your citation from the NEC answers your own question. you just don;t understand it. if you have seen this done by electritians for years,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                  you are an idiot. your citation from the NEC answers your own question. you just don;t understand it.
                                   
                                  if you have 'seen' this done by electritians for years, they have been doing this wrong for years.
                                  i suggest that you find a new electrician who isn't so  cheap to jeopardize the customers life safety for a $10 breaker.
                                   
                                  i don;t need you to quote NEC.  i am a professional engineer and this is what i do for a living. this means that 1, i have been educated with an accredited degree. 2. have served a multiyear appenticeship to other professional engineers who have taught me and supervised my work. 3. only after their approval i, been found able and competent by my peers and they have liscenced me as aprofessional engineer.  btw: i paid for my MS working as an electrician.
                                   
                                  so when it comes down to it, who do you think knows and understands what he says?
                                   
                                  in fact, i am rather tired of the ballendo show. i try to avoid trolls.
                                   
                                  yes ballendo, you are a troll. a small minded, blowhard troll. since no one else on the list has the balls to say it, i will.
                                   
                                  in fact you are SUCH overpowering pressence here, i don't care to be here. your posts are usually nothing more than inflaming noise.
                                  i am leaving the list.
                                   
                                  sincerely,
                                   
                                  dionysios j pantazis
                                  state of illinois professional engineer 620-54103
                                   
                                   
                                   -----Original Message-----
                                  From: ballendo@... [mailto:ballendo@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 5:09 AM
                                  To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [mill_drill] extra breakers/circuits wasRe: mill/drill differences....moot point on HF

                                  Dennis,

                                  Are you sure? I have seen this done by licensed electricians for
                                  years...

                                  Was ready to fire off a "yes you can!" post, and decided to look
                                  through the NEC first. pertinent part (article 240, overcurrent
                                  devices) posted below:

                                  *(b) Circuit Breaker as Overcurrent Device. Circuit breakers shall 
                                  *open all ungrounded conductors of the circuit unless otherwise
                                  *permitted in (1), (2), or (3).
                                  *1. Except where limited by Section 210-4(b), individual single-pole
                                  *circuit breakers, with or without approved handle ties, shall be
                                  *permitted as the protection for each ungrounded conductor of
                                  *multiwire branch circuits that serve only single-phase, line-to-
                                  *neutral loads.
                                  *>2. In grounded systems, individual single-pole circuit breakers
                                  *with approved handle ties shall be permitted as the protection for
                                  *each ungrounded conductor for line-to-line connected loads for
                                  *single-phase circuits or 3-wire, direct-current circuits.

                                  So article 240-b2 seems to support the original assertion that single
                                  pole circuit breakers CAN be used in a 230V (line to line) circuit!
                                  (with approved HANDLE ties)

                                  Comments?

                                  Ballendo

                                  P.S. Other possible items of interest: 225-33b,230-73a&b,210-4b,240-8

                                  <snip> before you even ask....YOU CAN NOT MAKE A 220 VOLT CIRCUIT BY
                                  >WIRING TO 2 SEPARATE BREAKERS! 2 pole breakers have a joined
                                  >mechanism inside the device, set up so the mechanisms trip TOGETHER,
                                  >not by the throws.
                                  >dennis



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                                • klaus@sirius.com
                                  ... Sounds like a good idea... Anyway, I think the cheapest and yet perfectly legal and safe solution to the original poster s problem is to just wire the mill
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                    --- In mill_drill@y..., "dennis pantazis" <dpantazis@y...> wrote:
                                    > <snip stuff unfit to print> ... <snip>
                                    > i am leaving the list.
                                    >
                                    > sincerely,
                                    >
                                    > dionysios j pantazis
                                    > state of illinois professional engineer 620-54103
                                    >

                                    Sounds like a good idea...

                                    Anyway, I think the cheapest and yet perfectly legal and safe
                                    solution to the original poster's problem is to just wire the mill up
                                    to one of his existing circuits. He said that he is not using the
                                    other equipment at the same time anyways. And if he were the circuit
                                    breaker would do what it's supposed to and that would remind him to
                                    not operate more than one machine at a time. (Good practice in any
                                    case...)
                                    I have at least 40 Amps worth of equipment in my lab hooked up to one
                                    15 Amp circuit. (I would never dream of turning it all on at the same
                                    time living in California...)
                                    This poses no hazard at all. What WOULD be a hazard is to just switch
                                    that breaker for a 40 Amp model.
                                    Klaus
                                  • StarsWatch@aol.com
                                    To Mr Pantazis Re: your behavior This is a Mill group not the Hot_heads_sound_off_@yahoo.com group Name calling has no place here. Please do voluntarily leave
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                      To Mr Pantazis

                                      Re: your behavior

                                      This is a Mill group not the Hot_heads_sound_off_@... group

                                      Name calling has no place here.

                                      Please do voluntarily leave this group. For I am also not a
                                      electrical engineer, and it is conceivable that I too may sometimes
                                      post questions regarding things that fall under a heading in which
                                      you may claim expertise. And I certainly don't want to be labeled
                                      or blasted by you simply because you feel that my lack of knowledge
                                      makes me a idiot simply for asking for guidance. Or relating my
                                      possibly misunderstood interpretation of events that I have
                                      witnessed.

                                      After rereading Ballendo's last post, "several times actually."
                                      I'm sitting here amazed at your uncalled for attack. Mr.
                                      Ballendo clearly asked a question of you regarding the applicable
                                      code. Presumably to draw upon your professional interpretation of a
                                      section of code, that Mr. Ballendo as a lay person, was unclear about
                                      given that he has witnessed electricians doing it differentially. for
                                      years.

                                      Mr. Ballendo clearly was not encouraging anyone to violate any
                                      electrical codes. Indeed if you had taken the time to share your
                                      professional engineering knowledge with us, then you may very well
                                      have helped weed out a few electricians that had been performing
                                      substandard work in the past.

                                      But you didn't take the time. . . Oh well since you have left
                                      this list anyway we can get back to milling topics. . .

                                      I worked my electrical problems out, Roger_aaaws

                                      --- In mill_drill@y..., "dennis pantazis" <dpantazis@y...> wrote:

                                      you are an idiot. . . .. you just don;t understand it. . .. i am
                                      a . . you are a troll. a small minded, blowhard troll. since no one
                                      else on the list has the balls to say it, i will. .I am leaving the
                                      list.
                                      sincerely, dionysios j pantazis state of illinois professional
                                      engineer 620-54103
                                    • Terry Lane
                                      I agree, Mr. Pantazis outburst belies his claim to any sort of profesionalism in his calling . In this country, at least, engineering pros are well versed in
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                        I agree, Mr. Pantazis' outburst belies his claim to any sort of profesionalism in his 'calling'.
                                         
                                        In this country, at least, engineering pros are well versed in the philosophy that there is no one 'proper' way to do things, rather, a range of of options, and that the engineer's role is to explore and identify the most suitable of these.
                                         
                                        Included in any training for engineers (of any disipline) is a 'Public Relations' module. This teaches, among other things, acceptable ways of putting a contrary point of view.
                                         
                                        Perhaps Mr.P is in need of some retraining? And a short course in spelling/grammar wouldn't hurt either.
                                         
                                        Terry
                                         
                                         
                                        To Mr Pantazis

                                        Re: your behavior

                                        This is a Mill group not the Hot_heads_sound_off_@... group

                                        Name calling has no place here.

                                        Please do voluntarily leave this group. For I am also not a
                                        electrical engineer, and it is conceivable that I too may sometimes
                                        post questions regarding things that fall under a heading in which
                                        you may claim expertise. And I certainly don't want to be labeled
                                        or blasted by you simply because you feel that my lack of knowledge
                                        makes me a idiot simply for asking for guidance. Or relating my
                                        possibly misunderstood interpretation of events that I have
                                        witnessed.

                                        After rereading Ballendo's last post, "several times actually."
                                        I'm sitting here amazed at your uncalled for attack. Mr.
                                        Ballendo clearly asked a question of you regarding the applicable
                                        code. Presumably to draw upon your professional interpretation of a
                                        section of code, that Mr. Ballendo as a lay person, was unclear about
                                        given that he has witnessed electricians doing it differentially. for
                                        years.

                                        Mr. Ballendo clearly was not encouraging anyone to violate any
                                        electrical codes. Indeed if you had taken the time to share your
                                        professional engineering knowledge with us, then you may very well
                                        have helped weed out a few electricians that had been performing
                                        substandard work in the past.

                                        But you didn't take the time. . . Oh well since you have left
                                        this list anyway we can get back to milling topics. . .

                                        I worked my electrical problems out, Roger_aaaws

                                        --- In mill_drill@y..., "dennis pantazis" <dpantazis@y...> wrote:

                                        you are an idiot. . . .. you just don;t understand it. . .. i am
                                        a . . you are a troll. a small minded, blowhard troll. since no one
                                        else on the list has the balls to say it, i will. .I am leaving the
                                        list.
                                        sincerely, dionysios j pantazis state of illinois professional
                                        engineer 620-54103




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                                        mill_drill-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                                      • ballendo@yahoo.com
                                        List, I d like to let you all know my father is a UNION electrician. Also my brother. The union electrical apprentice program is 6 years long. Between them
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 18, 2001
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                                          List,

                                          I'd like to let you all know my father is a UNION electrician. Also
                                          my brother. The union electrical apprentice program is 6 years long.
                                          Between them they have over 45 years experience with "real world",
                                          inspected electrical work... Mostly in California

                                          This morning I spoke with both. My Father (retired) said that using
                                          single breakers to make up a 220V circuit is standard practice, using
                                          ties on the HANDLES. My brother, currently a foreman on a medical
                                          center expansion, agreed. He DID say that in HIGHER amperages (he
                                          said about 60-70A) Mr. Pantazis was correct.

                                          Hope this helps.

                                          Ballendo

                                          P.S. It appears that Mr. Pantazis may be of Greek origin. We need to
                                          be careful when criticising spelling and grammar...

                                          --- In mill_drill@y..., "dennis pantazis" <dpantazis@y...> wrote:
                                          > you are an idiot. your citation from the NEC answers your own
                                          question. you just don;t understand it.
                                          <snip>
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