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Re: [mill_drill] Things that go crash in the night . . .

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  • Barry Nesheim
    ... From: Damon Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:07 PM To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mill_drill] Things that go crash in the night . . . Had a
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
      ...Not a key as such,but rather a setscrew..well that is what was oin my grizzly knee mill..I asked where i worked at the time ..the machinists said it happens and that  the r-8 collets will still work..i just tightened them a little extra..i did look in the manual at the time..it showed it but it meant a teardown of the spindle housing to get at the setscrew..not worth it to me at the time,so i left it..as it was..Barry
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Damon
      Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:07 PM
      To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mill_drill] Things that go crash in the night . . .
       

      Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other night...

      Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
      and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled.  Face mill stopped,
      spindle didn't. 

      Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
      know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns?  Well no
      longer on this one.

      Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
      as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts?  Can't find
      the remains.

      Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway ?!

      -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)



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    • rlincolnh
      Not being rude, but broke a drawbar ..... again ???? How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times?? Genuine question, I want to know.
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
        Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????

        How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
        Genuine question, I want to know.

        Roger

        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other night...
        >
        > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
        > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled. Face mill stopped,
        > spindle didn't.
        >
        > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
        > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns? Well no
        > longer on this one.
        >
        > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
        > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts? Can't find
        > the remains.
        >
        > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway ?!
        >
        > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)
      • Damon
        Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you the straight scoop on this one !! The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a rod,
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
          Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
          the straight scoop on this one !!

          The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
          rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
          essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
          of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
          pins the hex onto the rod. One day while tightening a collet -
          bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
          the pin.

          The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
          work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad. Planning
          on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....

          -Damon

          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
          > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
          >
          > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
          > Genuine question, I want to know.
          >
          > Roger
          >
          > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other night...
          > >
          > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
          > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled. Face mill stopped,
          > > spindle didn't.
          > >
          > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
          > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns? Well no
          > > longer on this one.
          > >
          > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
          > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts? Can't find
          > > the remains.
          > >
          > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway ?!
          > >
          > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)
        • rlincolnh
          Ahhh, right. I m getting an RF-45 (or clone thereof). Do you know if the pin arrangement is common practice on drawbars in general - because I ve got some big
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
            Ahhh, right. I'm getting an RF-45 (or clone thereof). Do you know if
            the pin arrangement is common practice on drawbars in general -
            because I've got some big spanners, too?

            On a scientific note (*), just how much torque is needed/recommended
            when tightening a drawbar? If the answer is 'it depends', then on
            what?

            Roger

            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
            > the straight scoop on this one !!
            >
            > The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
            > rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
            > essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
            > of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
            > pins the hex onto the rod. One day while tightening a collet -
            > bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
            > the pin.
            >
            > The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
            > work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad. Planning
            > on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....
            >
            > -Damon
            >
            > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
            > > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
            > >
            > > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
            > > Genuine question, I want to know.
            > >
            > > Roger
            > >
            > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other
            night...
            > > >
            > > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
            > > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled. Face mill
            stopped,
            > > > spindle didn't.
            > > >
            > > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
            > > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns? Well
            no
            > > > longer on this one.
            > > >
            > > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
            > > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts? Can't find
            > > > the remains.
            > > >
            > > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway
            ?!
            > > >
            > > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)
          • Jerry Stephenson
            Damon, I made a new top piece that is deeper so as to effectively shorten the drawbar since I had over an inch of thread engagement. I also made the hex
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
              Damon,
              I made a new top piece that is deeper so as to effectively shorten the drawbar since I had over an inch of thread engagement.  I also made the hex portion much longer so that it sticks up farther and is easier to see.  And finally, I made it 3/4" instead of metric so I could use a standard bridgeport size spindle wrench with a brass hammer on the back.
               
              I think your shearing may have been caused by repeated hammering since when I took mine apart, the shaft wasn't seated in the bottom of the hole so all the hammering was done on the pin.  In my new one, the shaft is firmly seated in the hole before drilling the hole for the pin.
               
              Cheers,
              Jerry
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Damon
              Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:19 PM
              Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Things that go crash in the night . . .


              Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
              the straight scoop on this one !!

              The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
              rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
              essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
              of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
              pins the hex onto the rod.  One day while tightening a collet -
              bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
              the pin.

              The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
              work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad.  Planning
              on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....

              -Damon

              --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
              > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
              >
              > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
              > Genuine question, I want to know.
              >
              > Roger
              >
              > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > >  Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other night...
              > >
              > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
              > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled.  Face mill stopped,
              > > spindle didn't. 
              > >
              > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
              > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns?  Well no
              > > longer on this one.
              > >
              > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
              > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts?  Can't find
              > > the remains.
              > >
              > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway ?!
              > >
              > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)



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            • Jerry Stephenson
              Unless you plan to put a strap wrench on the spindle and really give it a whirl, you won t overtorque it. For endmill holders, boring heads, and other
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2, 2003
                Unless you plan to put a strap wrench on the spindle and really give it a whirl, you won't overtorque it.  For endmill holders, boring heads, and other fixtures, snug is good enough.  The key is to keep the tapers clean and burr free so you get a good seat. 
                 
                For collets, it is important to get them tight or else the endmill might slip up or down from lack of clamping force (this has been reported and I've even experienced it but I've never experienced it when I got it good and tight.  I'd estimate that what I call "good and tight" is 20-30 ft-lbs. 
                Cheers,
                JErry
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: rlincolnh
                Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 8:26 PM
                Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Things that go crash in the night . . .

                Ahhh, right. I'm getting an RF-45 (or clone thereof). Do you know if
                the pin arrangement is common practice on drawbars in general -
                because I've got some big spanners, too?

                On a scientific note (*), just how much torque is needed/recommended
                when tightening a drawbar? If the answer is 'it depends', then on
                what?

                Roger

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
                > the straight scoop on this one !!
                >
                >  The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
                > rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
                > essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
                > of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
                > pins the hex onto the rod.  One day while tightening a collet -
                > bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
                > the pin.
                >
                > The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
                > work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad.  Planning
                > on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....
                >
                > -Damon
                >
                > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
                > > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
                > >
                > > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
                > > Genuine question, I want to know.
                > >
                > > Roger
                > >
                > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >  Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other
                night...
                > > >
                > > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
                > > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled.  Face mill
                stopped,
                > > > spindle didn't. 
                > > >
                > > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
                > > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns?  Well
                no
                > > > longer on this one.
                > > >
                > > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
                > > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts?  Can't find
                > > > the remains.
                > > >
                > > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a keyway
                ?!
                > > >
                > > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)



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              • Derek
                Just how much torque and hammering are people using? I m far from an expert but I use a 6 long 9/16 wrench on the drawbar - simply tightening and untightening
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 3, 2003
                  Just how much torque and hammering are people using?

                  I'm far from an expert but I use a 6" long 9/16 wrench on
                  the drawbar - simply tightening and untightening with a
                  good flick of the wrist, well forearm maybe, against the
                  inertia of the spindle and belts etc. No spindle locking
                  etc

                  And I use a 6oz hammer to dislodge the R8 taper with no
                  more effort than for a center punch on steel.

                  Never had a slippage yet.

                  There's a saying in the race car world (real race cars not
                  NASCAR) "More breakages and accidents are caused by over
                  torquing ....."

                  Derek

                  --- Jerry Stephenson wrote:
                  > I think your shearing may have been caused by repeated
                  > hammering .............. so that all the hammering was
                  > done .............
                • rfjb2001
                  Damon, I had the same problem with the drawbar on my G-1007. The pin broke and I silver soldered the hex back on the rod. Been working great for the last 3
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 3, 2003
                    Damon,
                    I had the same problem with the drawbar on my G-1007. The pin broke
                    and I silver soldered the hex back on the rod. Been working great for
                    the last 3 years that way.
                    Ross

                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
                    > the straight scoop on this one !!
                    >
                    > The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
                    > rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
                    > essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
                    > of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
                    > pins the hex onto the rod. One day while tightening a collet -
                    > bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
                    > the pin.
                    >
                    > The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
                    > work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad. Planning
                    > on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....
                    >
                    > -Damon
                    >
                    > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
                    > > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
                    > >
                    > > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
                    > > Genuine question, I want to know.
                    > >
                    > > Roger
                    > >
                    > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other
                    night...
                    > > >
                    > > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
                    > > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled. Face mill
                    stopped,
                    > > > spindle didn't.
                    > > >
                    > > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
                    > > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns? Well
                    no
                    > > > longer on this one.
                    > > >
                    > > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
                    > > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts? Can't find
                    > > > the remains.
                    > > >
                    > > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a
                    keyway ?!
                    > > >
                    > > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)
                  • Ralph Meiser
                    Damon, I repinned mine with a standard roll pin. It has been fine since. My impression was they used a piece of coathanger wire originally. Ralph Meiser ...
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 3, 2003
                      Damon,
                      I repinned mine with a standard roll pin. It has been fine since.

                      My impression was they used a piece of coathanger wire originally.<G>

                      Ralph Meiser

                      --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well I used my massive muscles to.... Uh, well lemme get you
                      > the straight scoop on this one !!
                      >
                      > The drawbar is actually a two piece assembly. One part is a
                      > rod, threaded at the end for the collet. The Other piece is
                      > essentially a hex (with round inside) placed over the top end
                      > of the drawbar. My mistake, 3 piece assy- there's a PIN that
                      > pins the hex onto the rod. One day while tightening a collet -
                      > bear in mind this machine has no spindle lock - pop I sheared
                      > the pin.
                      >
                      > The "Again" was the weld failing. Didn't have a lot of room to
                      > work with and didn't want to booger it up too bad. Planning
                      > on turning a one-piecer in the lathe....
                      >
                      > -Damon
                      >
                      > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "rlincolnh" <head@c...> wrote:
                      > > Not being rude, but 'broke a drawbar' ..... 'again' ????
                      > >
                      > > How do you break a drawbar even once, let alone several times??
                      > > Genuine question, I want to know.
                      > >
                      > > Roger
                      > >
                      > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Damon" <damonfg@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Had a *marvellous* crash on the enco RF45 clone the other
                      night...
                      > > >
                      > > > Drawbar broke (again) and dropped the face mill onto the vice,
                      > > > and the vice didn't exactly want to be milled. Face mill
                      stopped,
                      > > > spindle didn't.
                      > > >
                      > > > Looks like I wiped the key (?) that aligns the R8 tools. You
                      > > > know, pop in the collet and turn it a bit till it aligns? Well
                      no
                      > > > longer on this one.
                      > > >
                      > > > Exploded diagram stinks on this one. Can anyone give some light
                      > > > as to what the key looks like, and how it mounts? Can't find
                      > > > the remains.
                      > > >
                      > > > Or am I imagining the whole thing and there never was a
                      keyway ?!
                      > > >
                      > > > -Damon (cap'n crash reporting for destruction!)
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