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Re: [mill_drill] Jet-16 Hot Spindle

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  • john baird
    Yes  It s called a Garter spring, remove it, dip the seal in oil, and refit, see how it goes, worth a try at no cost. Regards  jb ... Yes It s called a
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
      Yes  It's called a Garter spring, remove it, dip the seal in oil, and refit, see how it goes, worth a try at no cost.
      Regards  jb


      From: Dustin Keys <dustin@...>
      To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2013, 20:04
      Subject: [mill_drill] Jet-16 Hot Spindle

      I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
      figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes.  At one
      point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
      issues.  I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it.  A 20
      minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
      ambient.  That's much better.

      I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
      how to solve it.  There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
      pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal).  I may try and
      remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
      anyone else ran into these issues?  Any ideas?

      Dustin


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    • Dustin Keys
      Thanks for the reply. I took the garter spring out and the friction still seemed pretty high. I used an Exacto knife and trimmed about .5 mm from the overall
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
        Thanks for the reply.  I took the garter spring out and the friction still seemed pretty high.  I used an Exacto knife and trimmed about .5 mm from the overall inner diameter of the seal.  In a ten minute run and 1000 rpm the spindle went from 80 degrees F (27 C) to 122 F(49 C).  I may leave the seal the way it is now and continue to let it slowly wear down with time.  Anyone see a problem with running around 120 f?  I could try to trim a bit more from the seal.

        On 07/25/2013 3:24 AM, john baird wrote:
         
        Yes  It's called a Garter spring, remove it, dip the seal in oil, and refit, see how it goes, worth a try at no cost.
        Regards  jb


        From: Dustin Keys <dustin@...>
        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2013, 20:04
        Subject: [mill_drill] Jet-16 Hot Spindle

        I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
        figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes.  At one
        point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
        issues.  I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it.  A 20
        minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
        ambient.  That's much better.

        I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
        how to solve it.  There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
        pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal).  I may try and
        remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
        anyone else ran into these issues?  Any ideas?

        Dustin


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      • internal_fire
        I don t have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
          I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings used anywhere.

          The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.

          Gene

          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
          >
          > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
          > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
          > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
          > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
          > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
          > ambient. That's much better.
          >
          > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
          > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
          > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
          > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
          > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
          >
          > Dustin
          >
        • Dustin Keys
          I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of the machine. I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers are 30207 and
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
            I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of the machine.  I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers are 30207 and 30206.  On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard looking oil seal which looks like the following.

            http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail

            How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?

            On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
             



            I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings used anywhere.

            The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.

            Gene

            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
            >
            > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
            > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
            > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
            > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
            > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
            > ambient. That's much better.
            >
            > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
            > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
            > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
            > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
            > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
            >
            > Dustin
            >


          • internal_fire
            There is a screw-in metal bearing cap that covers the lower opening in the spindle housing. The opening in the cap is slightly larger than the spindle. There
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
              There is a screw-in metal bearing cap that covers the lower opening in the spindle housing. The opening in the cap is slightly larger than the spindle. There is no seal.

              I don't know specifically about the Jet-16, but the Jet-15 and Jet-18 appear to use the same scheme, i.e., no tight seal.

              I have never had any problems with swarf in the bearings (over 20 years), but it could depend on what is being machined.

              Some sort of loose seal, such as a felt ring, might be useful, but I cannot see any reason at all to use a spring-loaded lip seal. Those are meant for oil retention, not for keeping dirt out. The oil lubrication helps keep them cool.

              Gene

              --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
              >
              > I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of
              > the machine. I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers
              > are 30207 and 30206. On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard
              > looking oil seal which looks like the following.
              >
              > http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail
              >
              > How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?
              >
              > On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed
              > > in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller
              > > bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the
              > > belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings
              > > used anywhere.
              > >
              > > The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as
              > > on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there
              > > should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.
              > >
              > > Gene
              > >
              > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:mill_drill%40yahoogroups.com>, Dustin Keys <dustin@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
              > > > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
              > > > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
              > > > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
              > > > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F
              > > over
              > > > ambient. That's much better.
              > > >
              > > > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
              > > > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
              > > > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
              > > > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
              > > > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
              > > >
              > > > Dustin
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Dustin Keys
              I think I will trim a bit more from the seal. The old seal was so worn there was about a 1mm gap between it and the spindle. On second thought, maybe it was
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
                I think I will trim a bit more from the seal.  The old seal was so worn there was about a 1mm gap between it and the spindle.  On second thought, maybe it was not worn and oversize for this very reason.  I'm the second owner of the machine so I suppose this lip seal could have been his doing.  Thanks for the help. 

                On 07/25/2013 7:48 AM, internal_fire wrote:
                 

                There is a screw-in metal bearing cap that covers the lower opening in the spindle housing. The opening in the cap is slightly larger than the spindle. There is no seal.

                I don't know specifically about the Jet-16, but the Jet-15 and Jet-18 appear to use the same scheme, i.e., no tight seal.

                I have never had any problems with swarf in the bearings (over 20 years), but it could depend on what is being machined.

                Some sort of loose seal, such as a felt ring, might be useful, but I cannot see any reason at all to use a spring-loaded lip seal. Those are meant for oil retention, not for keeping dirt out. The oil lubrication helps keep them cool.

                Gene

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
                >
                > I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of
                > the machine. I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers
                > are 30207 and 30206. On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard
                > looking oil seal which looks like the following.
                >
                > http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail
                >
                > How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?
                >
                > On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed
                > > in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller
                > > bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the
                > > belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings
                > > used anywhere.
                > >
                > > The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as
                > > on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there
                > > should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.
                > >
                > > Gene
                > >
                > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                > > <mailto:mill_drill%40yahoogroups.com>, Dustin Keys <dustin@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
                > > > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
                > > > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
                > > > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
                > > > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F
                > > over
                > > > ambient. That's much better.
                > > >
                > > > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
                > > > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
                > > > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
                > > > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
                > > > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
                > > >
                > > > Dustin
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >


              • john baird
                Hi, the seals come in 1mm increments, try a one with a more relaxed fit, they are not expensive. Regards  jb ... a Jet-16 and could not ... 5-10 minutes.  At
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
                  Hi, the seals come in 1mm increments, try a one with a more relaxed fit, they are not expensive.
                  Regards  jb


                  From: Dustin Keys <dustin@...>
                  To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2013, 14:33
                  Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Jet-16 Hot Spindle



                  Thanks for the reply.  I took the garter spring out and the friction still seemed pretty high.  I used an Exacto knife and trimmed about .5 mm from the overall inner diameter of the seal.  In a ten minute run and 1000 rpm the spindle went from 80 degrees F (27 C) to 122 F(49 C).  I may leave the seal the way it is now and continue to let it slowly wear down with time.  Anyone see a problem with running around 120 f?  I could try to trim a bit more from the seal.

                  On 07/25/2013 3:24 AM, john baird wrote:
                   
                  Yes  It's called a Garter spring, remove it, dip the seal in oil, and refit, see how it goes, worth a try at no cost.
                  Regards  jb


                  From: Dustin Keys <dustin@...>
                  To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, 24 July 2013, 20:04
                  Subject: [mill_drill] Jet-16 Hot Spindle

                  I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
                  figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes.  At one
                  point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
                  issues.  I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it.  A 20
                  minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
                  ambient.  That's much better.

                  I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
                  how to solve it.  There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
                  pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal).  I may try and
                  remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
                  anyone else ran into these issues?  Any ideas?

                  Dustin


                  ------------------------------------

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                • Vern
                  How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing? In the particular case of my RF-30 clone, it doesn t. There is a threaded plate that
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
                    "How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?"

                    In the particular case of my RF-30 clone, it doesn't.  There is a threaded plate that mostly covers the bottom bearing.  I found plenty of shavings (most looked to be from drilling operations), in the lower end of the spindle... I considered adding some felt, but it would likely only block the smallest chips.

                    -Vern

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:

                    I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of the machine.  I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers are 30207 and 30206.  On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard looking oil seal which looks like the following.

                    http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail

                    How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?

                    On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
                     



                    I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings used anywhere.

                    The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.

                    Gene

                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
                    > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
                    > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
                    > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
                    > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
                    > ambient. That's much better.
                    >
                    > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
                    > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
                    > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
                    > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
                    > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
                    >
                    > Dustin
                    >


                  • Rexarino
                    For lack of a better term, a washer can be press fit to the spindle to sling the chips away from the bearings and keep swarf out. Rex Bosse Portland, Oregon
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 25, 2013
                      For lack of a better term, a "washer" can be press fit to the spindle to sling the chips away from the bearings and keep swarf out.

                      Rex Bosse
                      Portland, Oregon


                      On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Vern <n7gtb@...> wrote:


                      "How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?"

                      In the particular case of my RF-30 clone, it doesn't.  There is a threaded plate that mostly covers the bottom bearing.  I found plenty of shavings (most looked to be from drilling operations), in the lower end of the spindle... I considered adding some felt, but it would likely only block the smallest chips.

                      -Vern

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:

                      I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of the machine.  I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers are 30207 and 30206.  On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard looking oil seal which looks like the following.

                      http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail

                      How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?

                      On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
                       



                      I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings used anywhere.

                      The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.

                      Gene

                      --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
                      > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
                      > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
                      > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
                      > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
                      > ambient. That's much better.
                      >
                      > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
                      > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
                      > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
                      > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
                      > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
                      >
                      > Dustin
                      >





                    • john baird
                      As the intended use of this seal, is to keep stuff out, rather than in, mount it upside down, and drizzle some oil in through the taper rollers, to lubricate
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 26, 2013
                        As the intended use of this seal, is to keep stuff out, rather than in, mount it upside down, and drizzle some oil in through the taper rollers, to lubricate the top side, cheap and easy.
                        Regards  jb



                        From: Rexarino <rexarino@...>
                        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 25 July 2013, 21:56
                        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Jet-16 Hot Spindle



                        For lack of a better term, a "washer" can be press fit to the spindle to sling the chips away from the bearings and keep swarf out.

                        Rex Bosse
                        Portland, Oregon


                        On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Vern <n7gtb@...> wrote:


                        "How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?"

                        In the particular case of my RF-30 clone, it doesn't.  There is a threaded plate that mostly covers the bottom bearing.  I found plenty of shavings (most looked to be from drilling operations), in the lower end of the spindle... I considered adding some felt, but it would likely only block the smallest chips.

                        -Vern

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Jul 25, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:

                        I used tapered roller bearings that matched the bearings coming out of the machine.  I believe they are pretty standard and the part numbers are 30207 and 30206.  On the bottom of the spindle was a pretty standard looking oil seal which looks like the following.

                        http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/servlet/the-2508/28X44X7TC-Metric-Oil-Seal/Detail

                        How does the RF-30 keep swarf from entering the lower spindle bearing?

                        On 07/25/2013 6:33 AM, internal_fire wrote:
                         


                        I don't have a Jet-16, but most or all of these machines are designed in very similar fashion. The spindle bearings are tapered roller bearings, which are neither sealed nor shielded. The bearings for the belt pulleys are shielded ball bearings. There are no sealed bearings used anywhere.

                        The Jet-16 manual lists the bearings, and they seem to be the same as on my RF-30. I am not sure what replacements you used, but there should be not opportunity for a dragging bearing seal.

                        Gene

                        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Dustin Keys <dustin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I had recently put new bearings in my spindle on a Jet-16 and could not
                        > figure out why the spindle would get hot after 5-10 minutes. At one
                        > point I had backed the preload off to nothing and was still having heat
                        > issues. I decided to pull the lower seal and run without it. A 20
                        > minute run without the seal and the temp only increase 18 degrees F over
                        > ambient. That's much better.
                        >
                        > I have discovered the cause of the temperature issue, but I'm not sure
                        > how to solve it. There is a spring in the seal that keeps extra
                        > pressure on the spindle (inside diameter of the seal). I may try and
                        > remove that to see if a decrease in friction helps the problem. Has
                        > anyone else ran into these issues? Any ideas?
                        >
                        > Dustin
                        >









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