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Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

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  • Druid Noibn
    Hi All,   Just a small point to add to the dicussion.   I have and love the VFDs - they work great.  Not all VFDs will work well with 1-phase input, some
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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      Hi All,
       
      Just a small point to add to the dicussion.
       
      I have and love the VFDs - they work great.  Not all VFDs will work well with 1-phase input, some have to be derated.  Also for small motors, there are VFDs that will work on 120VAC 1-phase and output 220VAC 3-phase. 
       
      If you have a situation where you need to push the motor a bit, the usual approach is to use a larger VFD, e.g., use a 1.5 or 2.0HP VFD for a 1.0 HP motor.  The reason for this is that while most VFDs have overload capability, the % overload and duration may be too little for the application.  Of course, this may not apply to our needs.
       
      My mill/drill runs on 220VAC 1-phase with a VFD.  One of my lathes has a VFD with 120VAC input and soon, I'll hook-up a 120VAC VFD to my other lathe.
       
      Be well,
      DBN

      From: "philr_77378@..." <philr_77378@...>
      To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 7:33 AM
      Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
       
      Guenter,
      There are some solid benefits from this change.
      Using a Variable Frequency Drive, the input to the VFD can be household 220 single phase, and the VFD gives 3 phase power to the motor.  I did this to my South Bend lathe, and can easily control the speed with a knob.  I run the middle belt position, and rarely need to move it.  It works great if you have a long facing cut, you can start outside diameter slower, and use the dial to the RPM up as the tool feeds toward the center of the face off cut.  Another great benefit is the VFD can provide braking to the chuck.  The chuck on my old South Bend stops in a few seconds, which saves work time.
      Phil R


      From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
      To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 5:07 AM
      Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
       
      I like to ask you for what reson are you converting to 3 phase?  Must have missed your previos threads. I seams single phase would be the way to go for a home shop. All of my machinines are single 110v and 220v that includes a 16"
      south bend lathe
       
      GP
      From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
      To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:59 PM
      Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
       
      Thanks for the help Corey. I added a switch to one of the 240 hot wires and ran the other through the drum switch. now I have forward and reverse. I do plan on switching to a 3 phase motor and converter sometime in the future when I get the extra cash. Thanks again, Brian
    • Rick Sparber
      I should add that my VFD system is powered from single phase 220V and feeds a 3 phase 220V motor that is specifically designed for VFD. I bought the VFD and
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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        I should add that my VFD system is powered from single phase 220V and feeds a 3 phase 220V motor that is specifically designed for VFD. I bought the VFD and motor as a matched set from the vendor. When I want very slow or very fast spindle speeds, I still must shift belts. But that is very rare.

         

        Rick

         

        From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Druid Noibn
        Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 4:49 AM
        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

         




        Hi All,

         

        Just a small point to add to the dicussion.

         

        I have and love the VFDs - they work great.  Not all VFDs will work well with 1-phase input, some have to be derated.  Also for small motors, there are VFDs that will work on 120VAC 1-phase and output 220VAC 3-phase. 

         

        If you have a situation where you need to push the motor a bit, the usual approach is to use a larger VFD, e.g., use a 1.5 or 2.0HP VFD for a 1.0 HP motor.  The reason for this is that while most VFDs have overload capability, the % overload and duration may be too little for the application.  Of course, this may not apply to our needs.

         

        My mill/drill runs on 220VAC 1-phase with a VFD.  One of my lathes has a VFD with 120VAC input and soon, I'll hook-up a 120VAC VFD to my other lathe.

         

        Be well,

        DBN

         

        From: "philr_77378@..." <philr_77378@...>
        To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 7:33 AM
        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

         

        Guenter,

        There are some solid benefits from this change.

        Using a Variable Frequency Drive, the input to the VFD can be household 220 single phase, and the VFD gives 3 phase power to the motor.  I did this to my South Bend lathe, and can easily control the speed with a knob.  I run the middle belt position, and rarely need to move it.  It works great if you have a long facing cut, you can start outside diameter slower, and use the dial to the RPM up as the tool feeds toward the center of the face off cut.  Another great benefit is the VFD can provide braking to the chuck.  The chuck on my old South Bend stops in a few seconds, which saves work time.

        Phil R

         

         

        From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
        To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 5:07 AM
        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

         

        I like to ask you for what reson are you converting to 3 phase?  Must have missed your previos threads. I seams single phase would be the way to go for a home shop. All of my machinines are single 110v and 220v that includes a 16"

        south bend lathe

         

        GP

        From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:59 PM
        Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

         

        Thanks for the help Corey. I added a switch to one of the 240 hot wires and ran the other through the drum switch. now I have forward and reverse. I do plan on switching to a 3 phase motor and converter sometime in the future when I get the extra cash. Thanks again, Brian




      • wjhaasman
        What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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          What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
        • Ramdog
          With a VFD you don t need a Phase Converter. The VFD takes the place of it, and gives you variable speed.
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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            With a VFD you don't need a Phase Converter. The VFD takes the place of it, and gives you variable speed.

            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "wjhaasman" <brianomcp@...> wrote:
            >
            > What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
            >
          • Guenther Paul
            Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase. GP ________________________________ From: wjhaasman
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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              Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.
               
              GP
              From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
              To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
              Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
               
              What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.

            • Rick Sparber
              GP, My single phase 220V to 3 phase 220V VFD runs cool to the touch which means that the energy consumed in the conversion is tiny. Besides, most of my time is
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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                GP,

                 

                My single phase 220V to 3 phase 220V VFD runs cool to the touch which means that the energy consumed in the conversion is tiny. Besides, most of my time is spent on set up, not running the mill.

                 

                Rick

                 

                From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Guenther Paul
                Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 8:44 AM
                To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

                 




                Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.

                 

                GP

                From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
                To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
                Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch

                 

                What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.




              • Corey Renner
                Rotary phase converters waste a little bit of power, vfd s are very efficient. I read somewhere that a bridgeport working an 8hr shift taking heavy cuts uses
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 5, 2013
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                  Rotary phase converters waste a little bit of power, vfd's are very efficient.  I read somewhere that a bridgeport working an 8hr shift taking heavy cuts uses something like 35cents worth of electricity per day. Even if it's doubled or tripled since then, its negligible.

                  Cheers, c

                  On Jul 5, 2013 8:46 AM, "Guenther Paul" <paulguenter@...> wrote:
                   

                  Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.
                   
                  GP
                  From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
                  To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
                  Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                   
                  What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.

                • Druid Noibn
                  Hi GP,   Interesting question, one that an engineer is likely to ask   We see lots of comments on this point, all good of course, but s let s stick
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 6, 2013
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                    Hi GP,
                     
                    Interesting question, one that an engineer is likely to ask <smile>
                     
                    We see lots of comments on this point, all good of course, but's let's stick with our engineering. 
                     
                    First - let's consider the approach to get 3-phase power 1) ask the power company to run a 3-phase line to our facilities and a licensed electrician to install the wiring (FYI, in NJ two folks can do the internal wiring on a home - the home owner or a licensed electrician); 2) get a rotary converter; 3) get a static converter; 4) get a VFD.  The last few points "assumes" that one has the appropriate power wired into the shop. 
                     
                    Item 1 is very good - and can be rather expensive as it depends a lot on what is available in your area.  I would have to pay, to have a power line brought in from a couple of blocks away.  Considering potential use - the utility company would not be eager to do it and it would be expensive. 
                     
                    Item 2- rotary converters are motor/generators (motoralternators if you wish) - they are very nice and lets one get full 3-pahse power.  Bigger is not always better and some control might be in order - not likley an issue for our needs and they are very reliable.  Probably best to find a good used one, as they can be expensive.
                     
                    Item 3 - static converters - they are sized to a particular motor size, and supply about 66% of the rated power - use only if forced to.  Look up as to what they really are <smile> - make your own.
                     
                    Item  4 - VFD - these are adjustable electronically controled converters - takes in AC converts it to DC and converts that back to AC; and are very efficient at doing so.  I'll leave it up to others to look up the specs on a few noting their total power consumption and conversion - they are efficient.  The output is variable, i.e., you can adjust the output such that it will allow the "motor" to vary it speed over a wide range.  It is not generally recommented to run multiple motors concurrently, although it can be done.  DO NOT put a switch, circuit breaket, relay, contactor or other disconnect device between the motor and the VFD.  For those areas when the safety rule demands a disconnect here - read the manual - some system permit a disconnect X milleseconds after interrupting the main power input. Cost...? varies with size of VFD and manufacturer - consider $130-$450 for the ones we typically need 
                     
                    Now, what the heck does the above have to do with the question? <smile>  
                     
                    The cost of 3-phase power depends on the approach used and it isn't only the $/KWH but also the cost of equipment needed. 
                     
                    Why did a fellow like me switch to a 3-phase system when I certainly know that it would not improve my work?  Because, I wanted to - it is a part of the fun I get working in my shop; and it is a part of my learning.  Heck, look at the speed adjustments on typical system, we may have "Low, Medium and High" yet we go a bit crazy discussing SFM (surface feet per minute) cutting speeds; an issue better left for those in production manufacturing. 
                     
                    I hope the above was of some interest.
                     
                    Kind regards,
                    DBN  

                    From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
                    To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:44 AM
                    Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                     
                    Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.
                     
                    GP
                    From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
                    To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
                    Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                     
                    What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
                  • Guenther Paul
                    Druid I have 3phase on the pole across the street, The power company will not hook up 3-phase to my property i am zoned agricultural-residential  i would
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 6, 2013
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                      Druid
                      I have 3phase on the pole across the street, The power company will not hook up 3-phase to my property i am zoned
                      agricultural-residential  i would need at least a light commercial zoning. Acutely i am fine all my machines i have now run a single phase but that may change ho knows i may get a machine with a 3phase
                       
                      GP
                       motor
                      From: Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...>
                      To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 4:48 PM
                      Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                       
                      Hi GP,
                       
                      Interesting question, one that an engineer is likely to ask <smile>
                       
                      We see lots of comments on this point, all good of course, but's let's stick with our engineering. 
                       
                      First - let's consider the approach to get 3-phase power 1) ask the power company to run a 3-phase line to our facilities and a licensed electrician to install the wiring (FYI, in NJ two folks can do the internal wiring on a home - the home owner or a licensed electrician); 2) get a rotary converter; 3) get a static converter; 4) get a VFD.  The last few points "assumes" that one has the appropriate power wired into the shop. 
                       
                      Item 1 is very good - and can be rather expensive as it depends a lot on what is available in your area.  I would have to pay, to have a power line brought in from a couple of blocks away.  Considering potential use - the utility company would not be eager to do it and it would be expensive. 
                       
                      Item 2- rotary converters are motor/generators (motoralternators if you wish) - they are very nice and lets one get full 3-pahse power.  Bigger is not always better and some control might be in order - not likley an issue for our needs and they are very reliable.  Probably best to find a good used one, as they can be expensive.
                       
                      Item 3 - static converters - they are sized to a particular motor size, and supply about 66% of the rated power - use only if forced to.  Look up as to what they really are <smile> - make your own.
                       
                      Item  4 - VFD - these are adjustable electronically controled converters - takes in AC converts it to DC and converts that back to AC; and are very efficient at doing so.  I'll leave it up to others to look up the specs on a few noting their total power consumption and conversion - they are efficient.  The output is variable, i.e., you can adjust the output such that it will allow the "motor" to vary it speed over a wide range.  It is not generally recommented to run multiple motors concurrently, although it can be done.  DO NOT put a switch, circuit breaket, relay, contactor or other disconnect device between the motor and the VFD.  For those areas when the safety rule demands a disconnect here - read the manual - some system permit a disconnect X milleseconds after interrupting the main power input. Cost...? varies with size of VFD and manufacturer - consider $130-$450 for the ones we typically need 
                       
                      Now, what the heck does the above have to do with the question? <smile>  
                       
                      The cost of 3-phase power depends on the approach used and it isn't only the $/KWH but also the cost of equipment needed. 
                       
                      Why did a fellow like me switch to a 3-phase system when I certainly know that it would not improve my work?  Because, I wanted to - it is a part of the fun I get working in my shop; and it is a part of my learning.  Heck, look at the speed adjustments on typical system, we may have "Low, Medium and High" yet we go a bit crazy discussing SFM (surface feet per minute) cutting speeds; an issue better left for those in production manufacturing. 
                       
                      I hope the above was of some interest.
                       
                      Kind regards,
                      DBN  

                      From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
                      To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:44 AM
                      Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                       
                      Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.
                       
                      GP
                      From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
                      To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
                      Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                       
                      What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
                       
                    • Druid Noibn
                      Hi GP,   Yes, indeed... The utility companies can be rather difficult at times and it is very difficult to get the folks to change their minds.    If one
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 7, 2013
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                        Hi GP,
                         
                        Yes, indeed... The utility companies can be rather difficult at times and it is very difficult to get the folks to change their minds. 
                         
                        If one really wants the utility company to consider bringing the power over (the cost can be a surprise - depending on teh factors involved) one might ask the town board for a variance on the property.  For a residential area, the chance is very low.  Sometimes one might see some success IF...you can demonstrate that there would be no increase in traffic, no trucks (other than the usual USPS, UPS, FedEx and rare other delieveries...) and no increase in pedestrian trafic, e.g., not open to the public.  
                         
                        It's easier to get a converter <smile>  The VFDs that I have all worked well, so far. 
                         
                        Be well,
                        DBN

                        From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
                        To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 5:06 PM
                        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                         
                        Druid
                        I have 3phase on the pole across the street, The power company will not hook up 3-phase to my property i am zoned
                        agricultural-residential  i would need at least a light commercial zoning. Acutely i am fine all my machines i have now run a single phase but that may change ho knows i may get a machine with a 3phase
                         
                        GP
                         motor
                        From: Druid Noibn <druid_noibn@...>
                        To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, July 6, 2013 4:48 PM
                        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                         
                        Hi GP,
                         
                        Interesting question, one that an engineer is likely to ask <smile>
                         
                        We see lots of comments on this point, all good of course, but's let's stick with our engineering. 
                         
                        First - let's consider the approach to get 3-phase power 1) ask the power company to run a 3-phase line to our facilities and a licensed electrician to install the wiring (FYI, in NJ two folks can do the internal wiring on a home - the home owner or a licensed electrician); 2) get a rotary converter; 3) get a static converter; 4) get a VFD.  The last few points "assumes" that one has the appropriate power wired into the shop. 
                         
                        Item 1 is very good - and can be rather expensive as it depends a lot on what is available in your area.  I would have to pay, to have a power line brought in from a couple of blocks away.  Considering potential use - the utility company would not be eager to do it and it would be expensive. 
                         
                        Item 2- rotary converters are motor/generators (motoralternators if you wish) - they are very nice and lets one get full 3-pahse power.  Bigger is not always better and some control might be in order - not likley an issue for our needs and they are very reliable.  Probably best to find a good used one, as they can be expensive.
                         
                        Item 3 - static converters - they are sized to a particular motor size, and supply about 66% of the rated power - use only if forced to.  Look up as to what they really are <smile> - make your own.
                         
                        Item  4 - VFD - these are adjustable electronically controled converters - takes in AC converts it to DC and converts that back to AC; and are very efficient at doing so.  I'll leave it up to others to look up the specs on a few noting their total power consumption and conversion - they are efficient.  The output is variable, i.e., you can adjust the output such that it will allow the "motor" to vary it speed over a wide range.  It is not generally recommented to run multiple motors concurrently, although it can be done.  DO NOT put a switch, circuit breaket, relay, contactor or other disconnect device between the motor and the VFD.  For those areas when the safety rule demands a disconnect here - read the manual - some system permit a disconnect X milleseconds after interrupting the main power input. Cost...? varies with size of VFD and manufacturer - consider $130-$450 for the ones we typically need 
                         
                        Now, what the heck does the above have to do with the question? <smile>  
                         
                        The cost of 3-phase power depends on the approach used and it isn't only the $/KWH but also the cost of equipment needed. 
                         
                        Why did a fellow like me switch to a 3-phase system when I certainly know that it would not improve my work?  Because, I wanted to - it is a part of the fun I get working in my shop; and it is a part of my learning.  Heck, look at the speed adjustments on typical system, we may have "Low, Medium and High" yet we go a bit crazy discussing SFM (surface feet per minute) cutting speeds; an issue better left for those in production manufacturing. 
                         
                        I hope the above was of some interest.
                         
                        Kind regards,
                        DBN  

                        From: Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...>
                        To: "mill_drill@yahoogroups.com" <mill_drill@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:44 AM
                        Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                         
                        Did you all ever figure the operating cost i mean the cosumtion of elec. to convert single to 3 phase.
                         
                        GP
                        From: wjhaasman <brianomcp@...>
                        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 11:26 AM
                        Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Grizzly G1006 Reversing drum switch
                         
                        What I meant was; Get a 3 phase motor with a phase converter to run on 240V household current then add a VFD for speed control. Cash permitting that is.
                         
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