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Re: Spectacular motor failure:

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  • svsequoia_pdx
    So while I am waiting for the vendor to decide whether and/or how they will honor the warranty, I did a little experiment. First I replaced the cap and
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 14, 2013
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      So while I am waiting for the vendor to decide whether and/or how they will honor the warranty, I did a little experiment.  First I replaced the cap and checked the current into it with a clamp-on ammeter.  Sure enough, it never shut off and I hastily hit the OFF switch as the current rose past 20A.

      I had been in the middle of a project and am very disappointed at the thought of lengthy down time.  This got me to thinking, do I really need the starting cap?  I mean, the motor runs fine under load without it, and the presence of the run cap should guarantee correct rotation. (The run cap is 20 uF vs. 150 uF for the starting cap).  So I tried it out with NO starting cap, and it seems to start just fine.

      So, the question for all you motor experts:  what will it hurt to use the mill (or more correctly the motor) without any starting cap?
    • julianworks2
      My understanding is that it will just be harder to start with the absence of the start capacitor. I know on certain machines other than mills, some guys will
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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        My understanding is that it will just be harder to start with the absence of the start capacitor. I know on certain machines other than mills, some guys will just give the machine a little kick start with the bump of a pulley to get it rollin. I would think that if it's not having too hard of a start you might be fine. I don't think I'd suggest trying to kick start a mill as there's no good place to do it with these Chinese gear heads.

        My $.02
        Julian

        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "svsequoia_pdx" <k7cej@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > So while I am waiting for the vendor to decide whether and/or how they
        > will honor the warranty, I did a little experiment. First I replaced
        > the cap and checked the current into it with a clamp-on ammeter. Sure
        > enough, it never shut off and I hastily hit the OFF switch as the
        > current rose past 20A.
        >
        > I had been in the middle of a project and am very disappointed at the
        > thought of lengthy down time. This got me to thinking, do I really need
        > the starting cap? I mean, the motor runs fine under load without it,
        > and the presence of the run cap should guarantee correct rotation. (The
        > run cap is 20 uF vs. 150 uF for the starting cap). So I tried it out
        > with NO starting cap, and it seems to start just fine.
        >
        > So, the question for all you motor experts: what will it hurt to use
        > the mill (or more correctly the motor) without any starting cap?
        >
      • Terry Coombs
        ... From: julianworks2 My understanding is that it will just be harder to start with the absence of the start capacitor. I know on certain machines other than
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: julianworks2


          My understanding is that it will just be harder to start with the absence of
          the start capacitor. I know on certain machines other than mills, some guys
          will just give the machine a little kick start with the bump of a pulley to
          get it rollin. I would think that if it's not having too hard of a start you
          might be fine. I don't think I'd suggest trying to kick start a mill as
          there's no good place to do it with these Chinese gear heads.

          My $.02
          Julian

          ----------------
          I use a piece of leather shoelace wrapped around the spindle to spin my
          RF45 clone up in the higher ranges . For some reason those chinese ponies
          don't like starting from a dead stop in high gear . Been like this from new
          , but I have always intended to go with 3ph and a VFD someday ...
          Snag
        • flyingfifer64
          No it won t hurt the motor / electrics to run with out the start cap providing the motor turns and gets up to speed quickly. The start cap is then usually
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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            No it won't hurt the motor / electrics to run with out the start cap providing the motor turns and gets up to speed quickly. The start cap is then usually disconnected by means of a centrifugal switch and the smaller run cap provides the necessary phase shift to give decent torque.
            No or low rotor speed at start up for a prolonged time equals lots of amps going into the motor, it could burn out if left in that condition for too long so be careful (starting in top gear might be too much of load...)

            Hope your replacement arrives soon

            Rob
          • Roger Blair
            I used Henry Arnold and other s ideas to mod my 602, and am very pleased with the dropin Leeson 19-somethingorother-51 motor. Below are just a few pics.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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              I used Henry Arnold and other's ideas to mod my 602, and am very pleased with the dropin Leeson 19-somethingorother-51 motor. Below are just a few pics.
              Regards,
              Roger Blair
               
              ------ Original Message ------
              From: "svsequoia_pdx" <k7cej@...>
              Sent: 6/14/2013 10:24:11 AM
              Subject: [mill_drill] Spectacular motor failure

                (I did this upgrade on my 10" Grizzly lath e and it works well.  It's just the $500 or so needed to invest!)  Has anyone done the 3 ph upgrade?  Dop you know if the Leeson is a drop-in replacement?

              Craig

            • Druid Noibn
              Hi Craig, Sorry to hear about the exploding cap. Leeson does make a metric motor - check both the mounting and shaft diameter - sometimes they do not match-up.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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                Hi Craig,

                Sorry to hear about the exploding cap.

                Leeson does make a metric motor - check both the mounting and shaft diameter - sometimes they do not match-up.

                Yes, I did replace my 1ph system with a US 3ph 56C mount motor - heads up - I made an adapter flange, spacers and a adapter/extension to connect the motor shaft to the system. What the heck, I have a Grizzly mill/drill and a lathe.... It works quite well, but most won't wish to go through that stuff.

                OK and alternate - call Grizzly and maybe other folks selling the same series mill/drill and see what they have as a replacement 3ph motor. For instance, Grizzly has gearhead systems with 3ph motors - check the manuals and/or call their tech support - see if they can give you advice.

                Also check eBay - I did find metric motors - sometimes folks want a bit of money and I'm...frugal. The system here uses eBay acquired materials and my labor...I'm still frugal.

                Let all know what you find out.

                Be well,
                DBN

                --- On Fri, 6/14/13, svsequoia_pdx wrote:

                > From: svsequoia_pdx
                > Subject: [mill_drill] Spectacular motor failure
                > To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, June 14, 2013, 1:24 PM
                >

                > There I was, drilling a .109 hole in delrin, and
                > BOOM! the magic smoke escaped from the junction box on my
                > 2HP RF-45 clone mill-drill. The  150 uF start capacitor
                > exploded, blowing the cover off the junction box.  The
                > tattered remains hung there, burning;  it took me a few
                > moments to get my act together, pull the plug and blow out
                > the flames.  Then I had to deal with the smoke
                > detector(s), fire alarm company, etc.  Picture here :
                >
                > Since the motor had been running for 30 seconds (but making
                > a slightly different noise) the start capacitor should not
                > have been carrying current.  A quick check with a
                > replacement cap and a clamp-on ammeter proved that the
                > centrifugal switch was not releasing at speed.
                >
                > The motor is a Chinese YL90L-4, single phase 230V/60Hz, 1740
                > rpm, 2 HP flange mount. Does anyone know of a US source for
                > a replacement?  The only one I can find is the 3 phase
                > Leeson  192206.00 if I upgrade to VFO control.  (I
                > did this upgrade on my 10"
                > Grizzly lath e and it works well.  It's
                > just the $500 or so needed to invest!)  Has anyone done
                > the 3 ph upgrade?  Dop you know if the Leeson is a
                > drop-in replacement?
                >
                > Craig
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Frank Spillman
                I am no kind of motor expert, but I just googled the specs you listed and came up with a few different options. Do you know if it is a C face motor? Is that
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 15, 2013
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                  I am no kind of motor expert, but I just googled the specs you listed and came up with a few different options. Do you know if it is a C face motor? Is that the same as flange mounted?

                  Which company imported your RF-45? It seems to me that the motor must be one of the options they allow the importer/brander to spec out, because just about every different company I have looked at has a slightly different motor on their version. Mine is from Bolton Hardware (who have always given me great customer service, by the way). When I get back to mine I will take a look at the motor and see if it sheds any light for me.

                  Good luck!

                  Frank Spillman
                • svsequoia_pdx
                  Frank: The motor is flange mounted. In metric sizing, it is a 90 series motor with a B5 flange (although it also has the B3 feet). Metric motors have
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 16, 2013
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                    Frank:

                    The motor is flange mounted. In metric sizing, it is a 90 series motor
                    with a B5 flange (although it also has the B3 feet). Metric motors have
                    different size shafts and footprints than US motor sizes.

                    The mill is branded Sabre ZX45L and was imported by AR Tools in Spokane,
                    WA. It being the weekend, I am waiting to hear back from them on their
                    response.

                    If I have to fork out for a replacement, I will probably go with the
                    Leeson 3 ph and add a VFD. I suspect that will be more reliable in the
                    long term.

                    Craig
                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Frank Spillman wrote:
                    >
                    > I am no kind of motor expert, but I just googled the specs you listed
                    and came up with a few different options. Do you know if it is a C face
                    motor? Is that the same as flange mounted?
                    >
                    > Which company imported your RF-45? It seems to me that the motor must
                    be one of the options they allow the importer/brander to spec out,
                    because just about every different company I have looked at has a
                    slightly different motor on their version. Mine is from Bolton Hardware
                    (who have always given me great customer service, by the way). When I
                    get back to mine I will take a look at the motor and see if it sheds any
                    light for me.
                    >
                    > Good luck!
                    >
                    > Frank Spillman
                    >
                  • Glenn
                    Craig - I have an Enco version of your mill and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 17, 2013
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                      Craig -

                      I have an Enco version of your mill and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box had water damage, but the motor was untouched. Had to make an adapter plate and turn down the shaft to get it to fit. Added a VFD and am very pleased with the combo.

                      Anyway, I have the original motor taking up space in my very overcrowded garage and would be happy send it your way for the cost of shipping. Hopefully your dealer will honor the warranty and this won't be necessary. Let us know what happens.

                      Glenn
                    • Jim Hendricks
                      What a fantastic gesture!!! Well done that man!! Jim _____ From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Sent: 17
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 17, 2013
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                        What a fantastic gesture!!!
                         
                        Well done that man!!
                         
                        Jim


                        From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn
                        Sent: 17 June 2013 10:09
                        To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Spectacular motor failure

                         

                        Craig -

                        I have an Enco version of your mill and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box had water damage, but the motor was untouched. Had to make an adapter plate and turn down the shaft to get it to fit. Added a VFD and am very pleased with the combo.

                        Anyway, I have the original motor taking up space in my very overcrowded garage and would be happy send it your way for the cost of shipping. Hopefully your dealer will honor the warranty and this won't be necessary. Let us know what happens.

                        Glenn

                      • mn_metalbutcher
                        I converted by Enco version of that mill to 3-phase/VFD. Here are some links to the threads on the conversion.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 17, 2013
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                          I converted by Enco version of that mill to 3-phase/VFD. Here are some links to the threads on the conversion.

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dovetail_column_mill_group/message/87
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dovetail_column_mill_group/message/169
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dovetail_column_mill_group/message/986
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dovetail_column_mill_group/message/1491

                          The bottom line is that you can find a metric motor that drops in other than the shaft size. I had to have the shaft on the Leeson motor I bought turned down and shortened in order to make it a drop in replacement. It cost me about $40 to get it done by an authorized Leeson motor repair shop, thus not voiding the warranty. YMMV

                          Ed

                          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "svsequoia_pdx" <k7cej@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There I was, drilling a .109 hole in delrin, and BOOM! the magic smoke
                          > escaped from the junction box on my 2HP RF-45 clone mill-drill. The 150
                          > uF start capacitor exploded, blowing the cover off the junction box.
                          > The tattered remains hung there, burning; it took me a few moments to
                          > get my act together, pull the plug and blow out the flames. Then I had
                          > to deal with the smoke detector(s), fire alarm company, etc. Picture
                          > here
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mill_drill/photos/album/1841861814/pic/76\
                          > 859749/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc> :
                          >
                          > Since the motor had been running for 30 seconds (but making a slightly
                          > different noise) the start capacitor should not have been carrying
                          > current. A quick check with a replacement cap and a clamp-on ammeter
                          > proved that the centrifugal switch was not releasing at speed.
                          >
                          > The motor is a Chinese YL90L-4, single phase 230V/60Hz, 1740 rpm, 2 HP
                          > flange mount. Does anyone know of a US source for a replacement? The
                          > only one I can find is the 3 phase Leeson 192206.00 if I upgrade to VFO
                          > control. (I did this upgrade on my 10" Grizzly lath
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/10x22grizzlyandthelike/photos/album/51088\
                          > 4303/pic/list> e and it works well. It's just the $500 or so needed to
                          > invest!) Has anyone done the 3 ph upgrade? Dop you know if the Leeson
                          > is a drop-in replacement?
                          >
                          > Craig
                          >
                        • svsequoia_pdx
                          Glenn: Thanks for the very kind offer. Fortunately, the vendor, AR Tools of Spokane, WA, has agreed to buy a new Leeson 3 Phase as a replacement. (I will add
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 19, 2013
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                            Glenn:

                            Thanks for the very kind offer.  Fortunately, the vendor, AR Tools of Spokane, WA, has agreed to buy a new Leeson 3 Phase as a replacement. (I will add the VFD.)

                            I am interested in the adaption process you describe.  What size were the old and new motors you used?  My blown-up motor is a 2 HP 90 series metric motor (YL90L-4 if I remember correctly) flange mount.  The Leeson I am considering is also a 2 HP, 90 series metric motor with a B5 flange mount  (and also B3 feet).  I haven't pulled the old motor yet but I am expecting the shafts to be the same.  Am I going to be disappointed?

                            Craig

                             

                             

                            On 2013-06-17 02:09, Glenn wrote:

                             

                            Craig -

                            I have an Enco version of your mill and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box had water damage, but the motor was untouched. Had to make an adapter plate and turn down the shaft to get it to fit. Added a VFD and am very pleased with the combo.

                            Anyway, I have the original motor taking up space in my very overcrowded garage and would be happy send it your way for the cost of shipping. Hopefully your dealer will honor the warranty and this won't be necessary. Let us know what happens.

                            Glenn

                             

                             
                          • Druid Noibn
                            Hi, Check the shaft size it might not be standard for the sized motor. Be well, DBN
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 19, 2013
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                              Hi,

                              Check the shaft size it might not be standard for the sized motor.

                              Be well,
                              DBN

                              --- On Wed, 6/19/13, k7cej@... wrote:

                              > From: k7cej@...
                              > Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Spectacular motor failure
                              > To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 1:40 PM
                              >
                              >
                              > Glenn:
                              > Thanks for the very kind offer.  Fortunately, the
                              > vendor, AR Tools of Spokane, WA, has agreed to buy a new
                              > Leeson 3 Phase as a replacement. (I will add the VFD.)
                              > I am interested in the adaption process you
                              > describe.  What size were the old and new motors you
                              > used?  My blown-up motor is a 2 HP 90 series metric
                              > motor (YL90L-4 if I remember correctly) flange mount. 
                              > The Leeson I am considering is also a 2 HP, 90 series metric
                              > motor with a B5 flange mount  (and also B3 feet). 
                              > I haven't pulled the old motor yet but I am expecting
                              > the shafts to be the same.  Am I going to be
                              > disappointed?
                              > Craig
                              >  
                              >  
                              > On 2013-06-17 02:09, Glenn wrote:
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Craig -
                              >
                              > I have an Enco version of your mill
                              > and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I
                              > found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box had
                              > water damage, but the motor was untouched. Had to make an
                              > adapter plate and turn down the shaft to get it to fit.
                              > Added a VFD and am very pleased with the combo.
                              >
                              >
                              > Anyway, I have the original motor taking up space in my very
                              > overcrowded garage and would be happy send it your way for
                              > the cost of shipping. Hopefully your dealer will honor the
                              > warranty and this won't be necessary. Let us know what
                              > happens.
                              >
                              > Glenn
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                            • leasingham_connelly
                              If you can t source a replacement start switch and you can t use the motor without the start cap then consider a manual switch for the start cap. Use a push
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 19, 2013
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                                If you can't source a replacement start switch and you can't use the motor without the start cap then consider a manual switch for the start cap. Use a push on/spring off switch, hold it down when starting the motor and release after a few seconds when the motor is at a suitable speed. Without a start cap there is there any risk of the motor running in reverse?

                                Martin

                                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Frank Spillman <spilperson@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I am no kind of motor expert, but I just googled the specs you listed and came up with a few different options. Do you know if it is a C face motor? Is that the same as flange mounted?
                                >
                                > Which company imported your RF-45? It seems to me that the motor must be one of the options they allow the importer/brander to spec out, because just about every different company I have looked at has a slightly different motor on their version. Mine is from Bolton Hardware (who have always given me great customer service, by the way). When I get back to mine I will take a look at the motor and see if it sheds any light for me.
                                >
                                > Good luck!
                                >
                                > Frank Spillman
                                >
                              • Glenn
                                Craig - AR Tools is coming through for you. A 3 phase motor and the VFD make a really nice combo. I posted a few photos of my mill (album is Glenn s Enco
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 19, 2013
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                                  Craig -

                                  AR Tools is coming through for you. A 3 phase motor and the VFD make a really nice combo.

                                  I posted a few photos of my mill (album is Glenn's Enco ZX-7045) and you can see the mount and info plate for the stock motor. It's a YL-90L-4 with the shaft turned down to 19mm (.748 by 40mm length with a 6mm key. The 4 mounting bolts are on a 164.5 (??) circle and the locating flange is 130mm diameter by 3mm high.

                                  The Leeson motor I used is a 121063.00. Here's a link:

                                  http://www.leeson.com/leeson/searchproduct.do;jsessionid=67438E5CF2E41A5EE7C8A202FDC1B7C6?invoke=viewProductDetails&motorNo=121063.00&productType=

                                  The adapter is 5/8 inch 6061 and the only trick is that the bolts that mount it to the mill are held captive by the motor. It takes a while to mount the motor and adapter a sixth of a turn at a time.

                                  If you get a metric class motor the adapter shouldn't be necessary, but you might have to turn down the shaft. I did that myself and it wasn't a big deal. Just disassemble the motor and mount the armature between centers and turn away. Cutting the keyway could be a problem if you don't have access to another mill. I help out in the machining class at the local community college, so I took it to class.

                                  The links that Ed posted will give you a lot of information. I read them many times before I made the swap.

                                  If you have any questions, just give a holler.

                                  Glenn

                                  --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, k7cej@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Glenn:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for the very kind offer. Fortunately, the vendor, AR Tools of
                                  > Spokane, WA, has agreed to buy a new Leeson 3 Phase as a replacement. (I
                                  > will add the VFD.)
                                  >
                                  > I am interested in the adaption process you describe. What size were the
                                  > old and new motors you used? My blown-up motor is a 2 HP 90 series
                                  > metric motor (YL90L-4 if I remember correctly) flange mount. The Leeson
                                  > I am considering is also a 2 HP, 90 series metric motor with a B5 flange
                                  > mount (and also B3 feet). I haven't pulled the old motor yet but I am
                                  > expecting the shafts to be the same. Am I going to be disappointed?
                                  >
                                  > Craig
                                  >
                                • svsequoia_pdx
                                  Druid: I am out of town right now but will pull the toasted motor as soon as I get back into the shop, and check the flange and shaft dimensions. Some of the
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 20, 2013
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                                    Druid:

                                    I am out of town right now but will pull the toasted motor as soon as I get back into the shop, and check the flange and shaft dimensions.  Some of the posts on this subject from 2009 seem to be referring to belt drive units that have a smaller than normal (24mm) shaft.  My mill has a 6 speed geared head.  The truth is out their...and I will find it as soon as I can.

                                    Craig

                                    On 2013-06-19 14:36, Druid Noibn wrote:

                                     

                                    Hi,

                                    Check the shaft size it might not be standard for the sized motor.

                                    Be well,
                                    DBN

                                    --- On Wed, 6/19/13, k7cej@... wrote:

                                    > From: k7cej@...
                                    > Subject: Re: [mill_drill] Re: Spectacular motor failure
                                    > To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2013, 1:40 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Glenn:
                                    > Thanks for the very kind offer.  Fortunately, the
                                    > vendor, AR Tools of Spokane, WA, has agreed to buy a new
                                    > Leeson 3 Phase as a replacement. (I will add the VFD.)
                                    > I am interested in the adaption process you
                                    > describe.  What size were the old and new motors you
                                    > used?  My blown-up motor is a 2 HP 90 series metric
                                    > motor (YL90L-4 if I remember correctly) flange mount. 
                                    > The Leeson I am considering is also a 2 HP, 90 series metric
                                    > motor with a B5 flange mount  (and also B3 feet). 
                                    > I haven't pulled the old motor yet but I am expecting
                                    > the shafts to be the same.  Am I going to be
                                    > disappointed?
                                    > Craig
                                    >  
                                    >  
                                    > On 2013-06-17 02:09, Glenn wrote:
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Craig -
                                    >
                                    > I have an Enco version of your mill
                                    > and replaced the stock motor with a 3 phase Leeson that I
                                    > found cheap. Must have been an insurance deal as the box had
                                    > water damage, but the motor was untouched. Had to make an
                                    > adapter plate and turn down the shaft to get it to fit.
                                    > Added a VFD and am very pleased with the combo.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, I have the original motor taking up space in my very
                                    > overcrowded garage and would be happy send it your way for
                                    > the cost of shipping. Hopefully your dealer will honor the
                                    > warranty and this won't be necessary. Let us know what
                                    > happens.
                                    >
                                    > Glenn
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >

                                     

                                     
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