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End mill question

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  • Curtis J Blank
    Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc. 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
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      Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.

      2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
      exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
      I purchased.

      So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
      preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?
    • Corey Renner
      2-flute is better when chip evacuation is an issue, the most-extreme scenario is when making a slot that is the width of the endmill itself. A 2-flute EM will
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
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        2-flute is better when chip evacuation is an issue, the most-extreme scenario is when making a slot that is the width of the endmill itself.  A 2-flute EM will make a slot pretty-close to on-size, a 4fl will tend to deflect and make an oversized cut that is biased to one side.  This knack for slotting is also why 2fl EM's are sometimes called "slot drills".  If you still can't find a use for them, you can send them to me :)

        cheers,
        c

        On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...> wrote:
         

        Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.

        2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
        exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
        I purchased.

        So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
        preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?


      • Dallas Richardson
        Curtis; As I understand it?? 2 flute is for aluminum ,brass and bronze. four flute is for steel and harder materials??
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
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          Curtis;
          As I understand it?? 2 flute is for aluminum ,brass and bronze.
          four flute is for steel and harder materials??
           
                                                                   Dallas  IMAX 1340

          From: Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...>
          To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 6:17 PM
          Subject: [mill_drill] End mill question

           
          Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.

          2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
          exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
          I purchased.

          So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
          preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?



        • Curtis J Blank
          LOL Not a chance now, you just gave me a use for them, and thanks for that! I ve been making some jigs lately (and have to remake one due to a design change)
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2012
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            LOL Not a chance now, you just gave me a use for them, and thanks for that!

            I've been making some jigs lately (and have to remake one due to a design change) that have square holes in them. So I've been roughing out the holes using a 1/4" EM and leaving 0.010" for the final cut and I've noticed the cuts were a bit bigger using the 4 flute. Didn't matter because of the 0.010' I left for the 1/4" EM and the holes were bigger then 1/4". Then after that the real real finish cut is then done with a 1/8" EM taking off 0.001" and to get the corner radius down to 1/16"

            But, on the new jig I have to cut a 13mm slot maybe 1-1/4" long with 6.5mm radius on either end so I just got a 4 flute 13mm end mill to do that. I was going to rough it out again and still will, but now I think I'll be ordering a 2 flute 13mm EM for the finish cut.

            Thanks.

            On 06/01/12 19:51, Corey Renner wrote: 2-flute is better when chip evacuation is an issue, the most-extreme scenario is when making a slot that is the width of the endmill itself.  A 2-flute EM will make a slot pretty-close to on-size, a 4fl will tend to deflect and make an oversized cut that is biased to one side.  This knack for slotting is also why 2fl EM's are sometimes called "slot drills".  If you still can't find a use for them, you can send them to me :)

            cheers,
            c

            On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...> wrote:
             

            Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.

            2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
            exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
            I purchased.

            So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
            preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?



          • Stan Stocker
            Hi Curtis, Few four flute cutters are end cutting. If you are plunging into the work you need end cutting mills. There are end cutting four flute mills, they
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 2, 2012
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              Hi Curtis,

              Few four flute cutters are end cutting. If you are plunging into the
              work you need end cutting mills. There are end cutting four flute
              mills, they are just the exception. If you look at the business end of
              a four flute endmill, the cutting edges usually have a space in the
              middle. Can't cut where there is no teeth. The end of a two flute
              endmill has edges that overlap and remove material to the center.

              Two flute endmills also cut slots much closer to size, and of uniform
              width. In the UK, they are known as slotting drills. With a two flute
              mill, either both flutes are in the work, or a single flute is and the
              other flute is out in space. As the endmill deflects under cutting
              load, the flute out is space does no harm. When a four flute end mill
              is deflected, the flute 90 degrees behind the most engaged flute digs in
              more.

              Two flute endmills have more room for for chip ejection, but have to be
              fed slower for a given chip load. Four flute endmills tend to pack with
              chips when cutting stringy or gummy materials. Poor chip removal
              equates to recutting chips, which both increases tool wear and decreased
              finish quality. If you have flood cooling, four flute endmills will
              often give better finish quality with higher material removal rates.
              Without flood cooling, they still give good finish quality, but chip
              removal can become a problem.

              Take care,
              Stan

              On 06/01/2012 08:17 PM, Curtis J Blank wrote:
              > Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.
              >
              > 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
              > exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
              > I purchased.
              >
              > So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
              > preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?
              >
            • clumsysoftballerz
              If you really want to save some money and get great finish on Aluminum try Data Flute ARF & AFI series end mills. I used to use Niagara High Helix 2 flute EM
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 2, 2012
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                If you really want to save some money and get great finish on Aluminum try Data Flute ARF & AFI series end mills. I used to use Niagara High Helix 2 flute EM on aluminum, but had a tendency to chip a tooth or full pretty fast. After a few weeks I would get chatter unless I started dropping my feed rates.

                On the recommendation of a local supplier when I needed a 1/8" long reach for aluminum I tried Data Flute. The ARF (Aluminum Rougher Finisher) I ordered with it (.375" bright) blew me away. I never put stock into carbide em since I only have 4000 rpm... WOW. Conventional milling at 20%+ higher feeds have me a better surface finish than climb cuts with Niagara HSS cutters. So far it hasn't chipped and its been almost 3 months of usage. Around $30 for the cutter (ARF20375) and I normally would have used 2 maybe 3 $15 Niagara cutters in that time.

                The AFI (Aluminum Finisher) series are 3 flute and the finish looks like glass when conditions are right. I learned for pockets though to finish the walls .001 off the floor so it is ONLY side cutting and it prevents circular witness marks on the floor.

                Needless to say I love data flute now. Use your goole-fu to do a little research and you'll see a lot of others swear by them too.

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...> wrote:
                >
                > LOL Not a chance now, you just gave me a use for them, and thanks for that!
                >
                > I've been making some jigs lately (and have to remake one due to a
                > design change) that have square holes in them. So I've been roughing out
                > the holes using a 1/4" EM and leaving 0.010" for the final cut and I've
                > noticed the cuts were a bit bigger using the 4 flute. Didn't matter
                > because of the 0.010' I left for the 1/4" EM and the holes were bigger
                > then 1/4". Then after that the real real finish cut is then done with a
                > 1/8" EM taking off 0.001" and to get the corner radius down to 1/16"
                >
                > But, on the new jig I have to cut a 13mm slot maybe 1-1/4" long with
                > 6.5mm radius on either end so I just got a 4 flute 13mm end mill to do
                > that. I was going to rough it out again and still will, but now I think
                > I'll be ordering a 2 flute 13mm EM for the finish cut.
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
                > On 06/01/12 19:51, Corey Renner wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > 2-flute is better when chip evacuation is an issue, the most-extreme
                > > scenario is when making a slot that is the width of the endmill
                > > itself. A 2-flute EM will make a slot pretty-close to on-size, a 4fl
                > > will tend to deflect and make an oversized cut that is biased to one
                > > side. This knack for slotting is also why 2fl EM's are sometimes
                > > called "slot drills". If you still can't find a use for them, you can
                > > send them to me :)
                > >
                > > cheers,
                > > c
                > >
                > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Curtis J Blank
                > > <Curt.Blank@... <mailto:Curt.Blank@...>> wrote:
                > >
                > > Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.
                > >
                > > 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
                > > exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came
                > > in sets
                > > I purchased.
                > >
                > > So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end
                > > mill be
                > > preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to
                > > cost?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Curtis J Blank
                Thanks Stan. The cutting explanation let me visualize it. I do use flood cooling all the time even when drilling a hole, makes a big difference. I was worried
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 2, 2012
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                  Thanks Stan. The cutting explanation let me visualize it. I do use flood
                  cooling all the time even when drilling a hole, makes a big difference.
                  I was worried about having to drill 3/32" holes through 3/8" 1018 steel
                  based on my experience on a drill press (no cooling). Last thing I
                  wanted was a broken bit in the hole. But no problem with the flood
                  cooling, makes a big difference, never realized it but makes sense. Nice
                  to see a long chip coming out of the hole with even that small of bit.

                  I would make quick stuff on the mill and not use the cooling even though
                  I had it, well because it was quick. But now I use it 100% of the time,
                  just so much easier on the cutter and a better finish. Had to fix the
                  tailstock on my lathe a bit ago. Cutting that cast iron without using
                  the cooling dulled the EM rather quickly. Then I started using it,
                  should have from the beginning.

                  These jigs I'm making are for electronics projects I'm doing to cut
                  holes in plastic cases for the LEDs and numeric display and connectors
                  and I'm now even using the flood cooling to cut the plastic. I'm using a
                  1/8" bit on my Dremel too to cut the square/rectangular holes in the
                  plastic case. I didn't do that on the first one I cut and the plastic
                  mostly melted and stuck to the case and the jig and the cutter shaft
                  making a real mess. On the last one I used a real 1/8" EM bit for my
                  mill instead of a Dremel bit, I think my Dremel bit was dull, got a new
                  Dremel bit to try next time, and I got nice clean holes using the cooling.

                  Sure am glad I asked this, I learned a lot. Been working with metal
                  since I was 10 in my Dad's workshop, almost 50 years now, not that long
                  with a mill or lathe though. Did a stint after high school in a machine
                  shop on a mill and a lathe and after that always wanted my own so I
                  could make stuff. When I finally had the room and the money I got my own
                  and am enjoying it.

                  -Curt

                  On 06/02/12 07:07, Stan Stocker wrote:
                  > Hi Curtis,
                  >
                  > Few four flute cutters are end cutting. If you are plunging into the
                  > work you need end cutting mills. There are end cutting four flute
                  > mills, they are just the exception. If you look at the business end of
                  > a four flute endmill, the cutting edges usually have a space in the
                  > middle. Can't cut where there is no teeth. The end of a two flute
                  > endmill has edges that overlap and remove material to the center.
                  >
                  > Two flute endmills also cut slots much closer to size, and of uniform
                  > width. In the UK, they are known as slotting drills. With a two flute
                  > mill, either both flutes are in the work, or a single flute is and the
                  > other flute is out in space. As the endmill deflects under cutting
                  > load, the flute out is space does no harm. When a four flute end mill
                  > is deflected, the flute 90 degrees behind the most engaged flute digs in
                  > more.
                  >
                  > Two flute endmills have more room for for chip ejection, but have to be
                  > fed slower for a given chip load. Four flute endmills tend to pack with
                  > chips when cutting stringy or gummy materials. Poor chip removal
                  > equates to recutting chips, which both increases tool wear and decreased
                  > finish quality. If you have flood cooling, four flute endmills will
                  > often give better finish quality with higher material removal rates.
                  > Without flood cooling, they still give good finish quality, but chip
                  > removal can become a problem.
                  >
                  > Take care,
                  > Stan
                  >
                  > On 06/01/2012 08:17 PM, Curtis J Blank wrote:
                  >> Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.
                  >>
                  >> 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
                  >> exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in sets
                  >> I purchased.
                  >>
                  >> So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end mill be
                  >> preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to cost?
                  >>
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                • Curtis J Blank
                  Thanks, I ll look for those EM s and pick some up to try if I can find them. -Curt
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 2, 2012
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                    Thanks, I'll look for those EM's and pick some up to try if I can find them.

                    -Curt

                    On 06/02/12 09:09, clumsysoftballerz wrote:
                    > If you really want to save some money and get great finish on Aluminum try Data Flute ARF& AFI series end mills. I used to use Niagara High Helix 2 flute EM on aluminum, but had a tendency to chip a tooth or full pretty fast. After a few weeks I would get chatter unless I started dropping my feed rates.
                    >
                    > On the recommendation of a local supplier when I needed a 1/8" long reach for aluminum I tried Data Flute. The ARF (Aluminum Rougher Finisher) I ordered with it (.375" bright) blew me away. I never put stock into carbide em since I only have 4000 rpm... WOW. Conventional milling at 20%+ higher feeds have me a better surface finish than climb cuts with Niagara HSS cutters. So far it hasn't chipped and its been almost 3 months of usage. Around $30 for the cutter (ARF20375) and I normally would have used 2 maybe 3 $15 Niagara cutters in that time.
                    >
                    > The AFI (Aluminum Finisher) series are 3 flute and the finish looks like glass when conditions are right. I learned for pockets though to finish the walls .001 off the floor so it is ONLY side cutting and it prevents circular witness marks on the floor.
                    >
                    > Needless to say I love data flute now. Use your goole-fu to do a little research and you'll see a lot of others swear by them too.
                    >
                    > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Curtis J Blank<Curt.Blank@...> wrote:
                    >> LOL Not a chance now, you just gave me a use for them, and thanks for that!
                    >>
                    >> I've been making some jigs lately (and have to remake one due to a
                    >> design change) that have square holes in them. So I've been roughing out
                    >> the holes using a 1/4" EM and leaving 0.010" for the final cut and I've
                    >> noticed the cuts were a bit bigger using the 4 flute. Didn't matter
                    >> because of the 0.010' I left for the 1/4" EM and the holes were bigger
                    >> then 1/4". Then after that the real real finish cut is then done with a
                    >> 1/8" EM taking off 0.001" and to get the corner radius down to 1/16"
                    >>
                    >> But, on the new jig I have to cut a 13mm slot maybe 1-1/4" long with
                    >> 6.5mm radius on either end so I just got a 4 flute 13mm end mill to do
                    >> that. I was going to rough it out again and still will, but now I think
                    >> I'll be ordering a 2 flute 13mm EM for the finish cut.
                    >>
                    >> Thanks.
                    >>
                    >> On 06/01/12 19:51, Corey Renner wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> 2-flute is better when chip evacuation is an issue, the most-extreme
                    >>> scenario is when making a slot that is the width of the endmill
                    >>> itself. A 2-flute EM will make a slot pretty-close to on-size, a 4fl
                    >>> will tend to deflect and make an oversized cut that is biased to one
                    >>> side. This knack for slotting is also why 2fl EM's are sometimes
                    >>> called "slot drills". If you still can't find a use for them, you can
                    >>> send them to me :)
                    >>>
                    >>> cheers,
                    >>> c
                    >>>
                    >>> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Curtis J Blank
                    >>> <Curt.Blank@...<mailto:Curt.Blank@...>> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>> Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.
                    >>>
                    >>> 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
                    >>> exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came
                    >>> in sets
                    >>> I purchased.
                    >>>
                    >>> So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end
                    >>> mill be
                    >>> preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to
                    >>> cost?
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                  • Corey Renner
                    I d like to try them as well. If anyone knows a good source, preferably one of the big discounters like Enco, MSC, WT, etc, I d like to hear about it. cheers,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 2, 2012
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                      I'd like to try them as well.  If anyone knows a good source, preferably one of the big discounters like Enco, MSC, WT, etc, I'd like to hear about it.

                      cheers,
                      c

                      On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks, I'll look for those EM's and pick some up to try if I can find them.

                      -Curt

                      On 06/02/12 09:09, clumsysoftballerz wrote:
                      > If you really want to save some money and get great finish on Aluminum try Data Flute ARF& AFI series end mills.

                    • Curtis J Blank
                      Well yesterday I used what I learned here. Had to cut some flats on a 1 diameter piece of 1018 steel and used a 2 flute end mill. Have to say it did a nice
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 3, 2012
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                        Well yesterday I used what I learned here. Had to cut some flats on a 1"
                        diameter piece of 1018 steel and used a 2 flute end mill. Have to say it
                        did a nice job. Width wasn't critical because they're just wrench flats
                        but still it held width pretty good.

                        On 06/02/12 11:25, Curtis J Blank wrote:
                        > Thanks Stan. The cutting explanation let me visualize it. I do use
                        > flood cooling all the time even when drilling a hole, makes a big
                        > difference. I was worried about having to drill 3/32" holes through
                        > 3/8" 1018 steel based on my experience on a drill press (no cooling).
                        > Last thing I wanted was a broken bit in the hole. But no problem with
                        > the flood cooling, makes a big difference, never realized it but makes
                        > sense. Nice to see a long chip coming out of the hole with even that
                        > small of bit.
                        >
                        > I would make quick stuff on the mill and not use the cooling even
                        > though I had it, well because it was quick. But now I use it 100% of
                        > the time, just so much easier on the cutter and a better finish. Had
                        > to fix the tailstock on my lathe a bit ago. Cutting that cast iron
                        > without using the cooling dulled the EM rather quickly. Then I started
                        > using it, should have from the beginning.
                        >
                        > These jigs I'm making are for electronics projects I'm doing to cut
                        > holes in plastic cases for the LEDs and numeric display and connectors
                        > and I'm now even using the flood cooling to cut the plastic. I'm using
                        > a 1/8" bit on my Dremel too to cut the square/rectangular holes in the
                        > plastic case. I didn't do that on the first one I cut and the plastic
                        > mostly melted and stuck to the case and the jig and the cutter shaft
                        > making a real mess. On the last one I used a real 1/8" EM bit for my
                        > mill instead of a Dremel bit, I think my Dremel bit was dull, got a
                        > new Dremel bit to try next time, and I got nice clean holes using the
                        > cooling.
                        >
                        > Sure am glad I asked this, I learned a lot. Been working with metal
                        > since I was 10 in my Dad's workshop, almost 50 years now, not that
                        > long with a mill or lathe though. Did a stint after high school in a
                        > machine shop on a mill and a lathe and after that always wanted my own
                        > so I could make stuff. When I finally had the room and the money I got
                        > my own and am enjoying it.
                        >
                        > -Curt
                        >
                        > On 06/02/12 07:07, Stan Stocker wrote:
                        >> Hi Curtis,
                        >>
                        >> Few four flute cutters are end cutting. If you are plunging into the
                        >> work you need end cutting mills. There are end cutting four flute
                        >> mills, they are just the exception. If you look at the business end of
                        >> a four flute endmill, the cutting edges usually have a space in the
                        >> middle. Can't cut where there is no teeth. The end of a two flute
                        >> endmill has edges that overlap and remove material to the center.
                        >>
                        >> Two flute endmills also cut slots much closer to size, and of uniform
                        >> width. In the UK, they are known as slotting drills. With a two flute
                        >> mill, either both flutes are in the work, or a single flute is and the
                        >> other flute is out in space. As the endmill deflects under cutting
                        >> load, the flute out is space does no harm. When a four flute end mill
                        >> is deflected, the flute 90 degrees behind the most engaged flute digs in
                        >> more.
                        >>
                        >> Two flute endmills have more room for for chip ejection, but have to be
                        >> fed slower for a given chip load. Four flute endmills tend to pack with
                        >> chips when cutting stringy or gummy materials. Poor chip removal
                        >> equates to recutting chips, which both increases tool wear and decreased
                        >> finish quality. If you have flood cooling, four flute endmills will
                        >> often give better finish quality with higher material removal rates.
                        >> Without flood cooling, they still give good finish quality, but chip
                        >> removal can become a problem.
                        >>
                        >> Take care,
                        >> Stan
                        >>
                        >> On 06/01/2012 08:17 PM, Curtis J Blank wrote:
                        >>> Well, cutting tool question I guess, ball end, radius, etc.
                        >>>
                        >>> 2 flute verses 4 flute. I tend to buy and use 4 flute cutters
                        >>> exclusively. I have 2 flute end mills but only because they came in
                        >>> sets
                        >>> I purchased.
                        >>>
                        >>> So I guess the question is why 2 flute? When would a 2 flute end
                        >>> mill be
                        >>> preferable to use over a 4 flute end mill? Or does it come down to
                        >>> cost?
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >> ------------------------------------
                        >>
                        >
                      • clumsysoftballerz
                        I don t know if any discount dealers that sell premium cutters, but you can use data flutes distributor look up to find local dealers. I m sure some will
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 4, 2012
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                          I don't know if any "discount" dealers that sell premium cutters, but you can use data flutes distributor look up to find local dealers. I'm sure some will even ship to you if your not with in driving distance.

                          http://www.dataflute.com/distributor.asp

                          I spent a LOT of money on decent cutters before I learned the advantage of spending 2 or 3 times more for a cutter that works several times better and lasts many times longer. Of course this isn't recommended for people who frequently break em due to crashing ;)

                          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Corey Renner <vandal968@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'd like to try them as well. If anyone knows a good source, preferably
                          > one of the big discounters like Enco, MSC, WT, etc, I'd like to hear about
                          > it.
                          >
                          > cheers,
                          > c
                          >
                          > On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Curtis J Blank <Curt.Blank@...>wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thanks, I'll look for those EM's and pick some up to try if I can find
                          > > them.
                          > >
                          > > -Curt
                          > >
                          > > On 06/02/12 09:09, clumsysoftballerz wrote:
                          > > > If you really want to save some money and get great finish on Aluminum
                          > > try Data Flute ARF& AFI series end mills.
                          > >
                          >
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