Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [mill_drill] new article: Drilling a Hole that is Larger in the Middle

Expand Messages
  • Rick Sparber
    Curt, Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can t be done. Rick ... From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
    Message 1 of 24 , May 6, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Curt,

      Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.

      Rick

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of curt wuollet
      Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:23 AM
      To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [mill_drill] new article: Drilling a Hole that is Larger in the
      Middle

      Not necessary, It was just my musings at
      1:30 AM:^) An interesting facet of "things
      that can't be done" is how, sometimes,
      people who don't know that they can't, can.
      I make a living doing things that can't be
      done.

      Regards

      cww

      Rick Sparber wrote:
      > Cww,
      >
      > If I restate the problem, it will give too much of the surprise away. I
      want
      > the reader to think hard about the solution because they will then be more
      > likely to remember the article. Besides, I am drilling holes ;-))
      >
      > Thanks for the real world applications for this procedure. In version 2 I
      > will include your insights.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Rick
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of curt wuollet
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 11:22 PM
      > To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [mill_drill] new article: Drilling a Hole that is Larger in
      the
      > Middle
      >
      > Along with changing the problem, you should
      > restate the problem to: " How do I make a
      > part shaped like this?". "Drilling a hole"
      > _implies_ the normal limitations. "Making a
      > part" removes those limitations and points
      > toward the multi-piece solution. Note that
      > you still can't drill a (singular) hole
      > with that shape. And the technique is used
      > in many places to get around this problem
      > such as jets for carburetors, many valves,
      > aspirators, etc. But, yes, the key is to
      > think beyond the drill:^)
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > cww
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • pjkettlejr
      Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can t be done proclaims him/herself as an expert in the field. I had a
      Message 2 of 24 , May 7, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.

        I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.


        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
        >
        > Curt,
        >
        > Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
        >
        > Rick
        >
        >>
      • curt wuollet
        They said you can t CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators because it s a judgement call when you have removed the damage and if the copper that s left is
        Message 3 of 24 , May 7, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
          because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
          and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
          have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
          differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
          etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
          copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
          that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
          a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
          camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
          the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
          where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
          and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
          statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
          The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
          chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
          chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
          how you define the problem can make the difference between
          possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
          can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
          Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
          not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
          off ignoring me :^).

          Regards

          cww


          pjkettlejr wrote:
          >
          >
          > Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
          >
          > I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
          >
          >
          > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@...> wrote:
          >> Curt,
          >>
          >> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
          >>
          >> Rick
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • C4C
          Curt, Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler,
          Message 4 of 24 , May 8, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Curt,

            Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.

            Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.

            C4C

            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
            >
            > They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
            > because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
            > and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
            > have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
            > differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
            > etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
            > copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
            > that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
            > a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
            > camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
            > the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
            > where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
            > and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
            > statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
            > The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
            > chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
            > chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
            > how you define the problem can make the difference between
            > possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
            > can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
            > Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
            > not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
            > off ignoring me :^).
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > cww
            >
            >
            > pjkettlejr wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
            > >
            > > I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
            > >> Curt,
            > >>
            > >> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
            > >>
            > >> Rick
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • curt wuollet
            Don t worry, I m sure it s back in the realm of hand work in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the
            Message 5 of 24 , May 8, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
              in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling
              Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the volume to try and
              compete with offshore rebuilders and did the automation to
              increase production. They had automated core check-in with
              bar coding and a sorting conveyor that we re-engineered from
              a Quantum conveyor system that never did work. We dumped
              the electronics and replaced them with a Linux powered
              front end that handled the barcode readers and database
              and a GE 90-30 PLC that ran the belts and divert gates.
              We did it that way because we only had two weeks to get
              the job done. The line I described before was built around
              an automated rotor varnishing machine also built in house.
              The rotors were loaded into an accumulator from teardown
              and I wrote a machine vision system to steer a robot to pick
              the next part, inspect it, and load it into the varnish
              machine chain.
              At the other end a robot picked them out and we did the
              measuring and machining I described at the other end.
              They also had automated regulator testing which I wrote
              and developed on a Linux system. That was sold to others
              as well. In the end, even with these bottlenecks eliminated
              the import price fell faster than they could cut the cost
              of production and Westling is no more. I still did some
              work for John Westling about 6 months ago, but that is
              on a 2 man shop level doing specialties. I don't think
              he will mind my telling the tale. I truly enjoyed the
              work and wish something like it would come up again,
              but we don't do manufacturing here any more. And I'm
              still, apparently, not qualified to do it:^)

              Regards

              cww

              C4C wrote:
              > Curt,
              >
              > Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.
              >
              > Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.
              >
              > C4C
              >
              > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
              >> They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
              >> because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
              >> and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
              >> have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
              >> differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
              >> etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
              >> copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
              >> that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
              >> a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
              >> camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
              >> the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
              >> where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
              >> and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
              >> statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
              >> The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
              >> chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
              >> chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
              >> how you define the problem can make the difference between
              >> possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
              >> can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
              >> Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
              >> not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
              >> off ignoring me :^).
              >>
              >> Regards
              >>
              >> cww
              >>
              >>
              >> pjkettlejr wrote:
              >>>
              >>> Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
              >>>
              >>> I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
              >>>> Curt,
              >>>>
              >>>> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
              >>>>
              >>>> Rick
              >>>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> ------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • C4C
              Curt, That sounds like it was an interesting job. A rebuiild shop on steroids. I tried Linux but I was already contaminated with MS and I couldn t make the
              Message 6 of 24 , May 8, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Curt,

                That sounds like it was an interesting job. A rebuiild shop on steroids.

                I tried Linux but I was already contaminated with MS and I couldn't make the change. I was trying Linux in an effort to get out from under the MS clock limitation. I wrote a CNC operating system for use with Galil Motion Control Inc. bus series controllers, but later decided that I don't like their firmware. The cost for altering their firmware is beyond my means so I wanted to write a version that is non-hardware dependent. I spent two years trying to get past the MS 10ms tick rate (1ms using the MS Multimedia High Resolution Timer) and have not succeeded. When I tried to discuss the matter with the programming gurus they said that it is not possible. That makes Art Fenerty an absolute GENIUS.

                I figured out how to work around the disliked aspect Galils firmware but it compromises my GUI so now I'm trying to figure out a solution for the solution.

                C4C

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                > in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling
                > Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the volume to try and
                > compete with offshore rebuilders and did the automation to
                > increase production. They had automated core check-in with
                > bar coding and a sorting conveyor that we re-engineered from
                > a Quantum conveyor system that never did work. We dumped
                > the electronics and replaced them with a Linux powered
                > front end that handled the barcode readers and database
                > and a GE 90-30 PLC that ran the belts and divert gates.
                > We did it that way because we only had two weeks to get
                > the job done. The line I described before was built around
                > an automated rotor varnishing machine also built in house.
                > The rotors were loaded into an accumulator from teardown
                > and I wrote a machine vision system to steer a robot to pick
                > the next part, inspect it, and load it into the varnish
                > machine chain.
                > At the other end a robot picked them out and we did the
                > measuring and machining I described at the other end.
                > They also had automated regulator testing which I wrote
                > and developed on a Linux system. That was sold to others
                > as well. In the end, even with these bottlenecks eliminated
                > the import price fell faster than they could cut the cost
                > of production and Westling is no more. I still did some
                > work for John Westling about 6 months ago, but that is
                > on a 2 man shop level doing specialties. I don't think
                > he will mind my telling the tale. I truly enjoyed the
                > work and wish something like it would come up again,
                > but we don't do manufacturing here any more. And I'm
                > still, apparently, not qualified to do it:^)
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > cww
                >
                > C4C wrote:
                > > Curt,
                > >
                > > Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.
                > >
                > > Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.
                > >
                > > C4C
                > >
                > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                > >> They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
                > >> because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
                > >> and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
                > >> have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
                > >> differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
                > >> etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
                > >> copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
                > >> that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
                > >> a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
                > >> camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
                > >> the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
                > >> where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
                > >> and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
                > >> statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
                > >> The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
                > >> chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
                > >> chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
                > >> how you define the problem can make the difference between
                > >> possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
                > >> can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
                > >> Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
                > >> not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
                > >> off ignoring me :^).
                > >>
                > >> Regards
                > >>
                > >> cww
                > >>
                > >>
                > >> pjkettlejr wrote:
                > >>>
                > >>> Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
                > >>>
                > >>> I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
                > >>>> Curt,
                > >>>>
                > >>>> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
                > >>>>
                > >>>> Rick
                > >>>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>> ------------------------------------
                > >>>
                > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • curt wuollet
                That got me thinking, I don t recall ever writing code on Windows. I started writing Turbo Pascal, and Mix C on CP/M then DOS, then switched to UNIX, then
                Message 7 of 24 , May 8, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  That got me thinking, I don't recall ever
                  writing code on Windows. I started writing
                  Turbo Pascal, and Mix C on CP/M then DOS,
                  then switched to UNIX, then Linux once it
                  was available. I tried to run my consultancy
                  on Windows in about the 3.0 era, but it was
                  so hopeless I switched back to Linux and I
                  have been using Linux ever since. I only
                  use Windows when programming PLCs on the
                  customer's or employer's machines. Linux
                  was a natural for those applications
                  because running 8 or 16 serial ports for
                  barcode readers and terminals along
                  with 3 machine vision channels and a
                  software PLC with 48 I/O points (for the
                  air chuck and robot permissives)was
                  business as usual, even on a 1990 PC.
                  It would have cost a lot more to do it
                  any other way.

                  Regards

                  cww



                  C4C wrote:
                  > Curt,
                  >
                  > That sounds like it was an interesting job. A rebuiild shop on steroids.
                  >
                  > I tried Linux but I was already contaminated with MS and I couldn't make the change. I was trying Linux in an effort to get out from under the MS clock limitation. I wrote a CNC operating system for use with Galil Motion Control Inc. bus series controllers, but later decided that I don't like their firmware. The cost for altering their firmware is beyond my means so I wanted to write a version that is non-hardware dependent. I spent two years trying to get past the MS 10ms tick rate (1ms using the MS Multimedia High Resolution Timer) and have not succeeded. When I tried to discuss the matter with the programming gurus they said that it is not possible. That makes Art Fenerty an absolute GENIUS.
                  >
                  > I figured out how to work around the disliked aspect Galils firmware but it compromises my GUI so now I'm trying to figure out a solution for the solution.
                  >
                  > C4C
                  >
                  > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                  >> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                  >> in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling
                  >> Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the volume to try and
                  >> compete with offshore rebuilders and did the automation to
                  >> increase production. They had automated core check-in with
                  >> bar coding and a sorting conveyor that we re-engineered from
                  >> a Quantum conveyor system that never did work. We dumped
                  >> the electronics and replaced them with a Linux powered
                  >> front end that handled the barcode readers and database
                  >> and a GE 90-30 PLC that ran the belts and divert gates.
                  >> We did it that way because we only had two weeks to get
                  >> the job done. The line I described before was built around
                  >> an automated rotor varnishing machine also built in house.
                  >> The rotors were loaded into an accumulator from teardown
                  >> and I wrote a machine vision system to steer a robot to pick
                  >> the next part, inspect it, and load it into the varnish
                  >> machine chain.
                  >> At the other end a robot picked them out and we did the
                  >> measuring and machining I described at the other end.
                  >> They also had automated regulator testing which I wrote
                  >> and developed on a Linux system. That was sold to others
                  >> as well. In the end, even with these bottlenecks eliminated
                  >> the import price fell faster than they could cut the cost
                  >> of production and Westling is no more. I still did some
                  >> work for John Westling about 6 months ago, but that is
                  >> on a 2 man shop level doing specialties. I don't think
                  >> he will mind my telling the tale. I truly enjoyed the
                  >> work and wish something like it would come up again,
                  >> but we don't do manufacturing here any more. And I'm
                  >> still, apparently, not qualified to do it:^)
                  >>
                  >> Regards
                  >>
                  >> cww
                  >>
                  >> C4C wrote:
                  >>> Curt,
                  >>>
                  >>> Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.
                  >>>
                  >>> Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.
                  >>>
                  >>> C4C
                  >>>
                  >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                  >>>> They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
                  >>>> because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
                  >>>> and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
                  >>>> have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
                  >>>> differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
                  >>>> etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
                  >>>> copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
                  >>>> that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
                  >>>> a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
                  >>>> camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
                  >>>> the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
                  >>>> where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
                  >>>> and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
                  >>>> statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
                  >>>> The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
                  >>>> chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
                  >>>> chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
                  >>>> how you define the problem can make the difference between
                  >>>> possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
                  >>>> can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
                  >>>> Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
                  >>>> not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
                  >>>> off ignoring me :^).
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Regards
                  >>>>
                  >>>> cww
                  >>>>
                  >>>>
                  >>>> pjkettlejr wrote:
                  >>>>> Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
                  >>>>>> Curt,
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>> Rick
                  >>>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • C4C
                  Curt, I really think that it s a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 9, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Curt,

                    I really think that it's a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being as how I was seeking help I had to keep my opinions to myself. My opinion of Linux was that it must have been created by those three guys in the movie Deliverance.

                    C4C

                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That got me thinking, I don't recall ever
                    > writing code on Windows. I started writing
                    > Turbo Pascal, and Mix C on CP/M then DOS,
                    > then switched to UNIX, then Linux once it
                    > was available. I tried to run my consultancy
                    > on Windows in about the 3.0 era, but it was
                    > so hopeless I switched back to Linux and I
                    > have been using Linux ever since. I only
                    > use Windows when programming PLCs on the
                    > customer's or employer's machines. Linux
                    > was a natural for those applications
                    > because running 8 or 16 serial ports for
                    > barcode readers and terminals along
                    > with 3 machine vision channels and a
                    > software PLC with 48 I/O points (for the
                    > air chuck and robot permissives)was
                    > business as usual, even on a 1990 PC.
                    > It would have cost a lot more to do it
                    > any other way.
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > cww
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > C4C wrote:
                    > > Curt,
                    > >
                    > > That sounds like it was an interesting job. A rebuiild shop on steroids.
                    > >
                    > > I tried Linux but I was already contaminated with MS and I couldn't make the change. I was trying Linux in an effort to get out from under the MS clock limitation. I wrote a CNC operating system for use with Galil Motion Control Inc. bus series controllers, but later decided that I don't like their firmware. The cost for altering their firmware is beyond my means so I wanted to write a version that is non-hardware dependent. I spent two years trying to get past the MS 10ms tick rate (1ms using the MS Multimedia High Resolution Timer) and have not succeeded. When I tried to discuss the matter with the programming gurus they said that it is not possible. That makes Art Fenerty an absolute GENIUS.
                    > >
                    > > I figured out how to work around the disliked aspect Galils firmware but it compromises my GUI so now I'm trying to figure out a solution for the solution.
                    > >
                    > > C4C
                    > >
                    > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                    > >> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                    > >> in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling
                    > >> Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the volume to try and
                    > >> compete with offshore rebuilders and did the automation to
                    > >> increase production. They had automated core check-in with
                    > >> bar coding and a sorting conveyor that we re-engineered from
                    > >> a Quantum conveyor system that never did work. We dumped
                    > >> the electronics and replaced them with a Linux powered
                    > >> front end that handled the barcode readers and database
                    > >> and a GE 90-30 PLC that ran the belts and divert gates.
                    > >> We did it that way because we only had two weeks to get
                    > >> the job done. The line I described before was built around
                    > >> an automated rotor varnishing machine also built in house.
                    > >> The rotors were loaded into an accumulator from teardown
                    > >> and I wrote a machine vision system to steer a robot to pick
                    > >> the next part, inspect it, and load it into the varnish
                    > >> machine chain.
                    > >> At the other end a robot picked them out and we did the
                    > >> measuring and machining I described at the other end.
                    > >> They also had automated regulator testing which I wrote
                    > >> and developed on a Linux system. That was sold to others
                    > >> as well. In the end, even with these bottlenecks eliminated
                    > >> the import price fell faster than they could cut the cost
                    > >> of production and Westling is no more. I still did some
                    > >> work for John Westling about 6 months ago, but that is
                    > >> on a 2 man shop level doing specialties. I don't think
                    > >> he will mind my telling the tale. I truly enjoyed the
                    > >> work and wish something like it would come up again,
                    > >> but we don't do manufacturing here any more. And I'm
                    > >> still, apparently, not qualified to do it:^)
                    > >>
                    > >> Regards
                    > >>
                    > >> cww
                    > >>
                    > >> C4C wrote:
                    > >>> Curt,
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> C4C
                    > >>>
                    > >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                    > >>>> They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
                    > >>>> because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
                    > >>>> and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
                    > >>>> have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
                    > >>>> differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
                    > >>>> etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
                    > >>>> copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
                    > >>>> that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
                    > >>>> a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
                    > >>>> camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
                    > >>>> the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
                    > >>>> where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
                    > >>>> and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
                    > >>>> statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
                    > >>>> The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
                    > >>>> chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
                    > >>>> chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
                    > >>>> how you define the problem can make the difference between
                    > >>>> possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
                    > >>>> can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
                    > >>>> Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
                    > >>>> not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
                    > >>>> off ignoring me :^).
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Regards
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> cww
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> pjkettlejr wrote:
                    > >>>>> Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
                    > >>>>>> Curt,
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>> Rick
                    > >>>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • curt wuollet
                    They were pretty good programmers then:^) This box has been running for 432 days. Actually, I could almost see that having known a lot of programmers. Regards
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 9, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      They were pretty good programmers then:^)
                      This box has been running for 432 days.
                      Actually, I could almost see that having
                      known a lot of programmers.

                      Regards

                      cww

                      C4C wrote:
                      > Curt,
                      >
                      > I really think that it's a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being as how I was seeking help I had to keep my opinions to myself. My opinion of Linux was that it must have been created by those three guys in the movie Deliverance.
                      >
                      > C4C
                      >
                      > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                      >> That got me thinking, I don't recall ever
                      >> writing code on Windows. I started writing
                      >> Turbo Pascal, and Mix C on CP/M then DOS,
                      >> then switched to UNIX, then Linux once it
                      >> was available. I tried to run my consultancy
                      >> on Windows in about the 3.0 era, but it was
                      >> so hopeless I switched back to Linux and I
                      >> have been using Linux ever since. I only
                      >> use Windows when programming PLCs on the
                      >> customer's or employer's machines. Linux
                      >> was a natural for those applications
                      >> because running 8 or 16 serial ports for
                      >> barcode readers and terminals along
                      >> with 3 machine vision channels and a
                      >> software PLC with 48 I/O points (for the
                      >> air chuck and robot permissives)was
                      >> business as usual, even on a 1990 PC.
                      >> It would have cost a lot more to do it
                      >> any other way.
                      >>
                      >> Regards
                      >>
                      >> cww
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> C4C wrote:
                      >>> Curt,
                      >>>
                      >>> That sounds like it was an interesting job. A rebuiild shop on steroids.
                      >>>
                      >>> I tried Linux but I was already contaminated with MS and I couldn't make the change. I was trying Linux in an effort to get out from under the MS clock limitation. I wrote a CNC operating system for use with Galil Motion Control Inc. bus series controllers, but later decided that I don't like their firmware. The cost for altering their firmware is beyond my means so I wanted to write a version that is non-hardware dependent. I spent two years trying to get past the MS 10ms tick rate (1ms using the MS Multimedia High Resolution Timer) and have not succeeded. When I tried to discuss the matter with the programming gurus they said that it is not possible. That makes Art Fenerty an absolute GENIUS.
                      >>>
                      >>> I figured out how to work around the disliked aspect Galils firmware but it compromises my GUI so now I'm trying to figure out a solution for the solution.
                      >>>
                      >>> C4C
                      >>>
                      >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                      >>>> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                      >>>> in Mexico and China. I did the work for the late Westling
                      >>>> Mfg. Co. in Princeton, MN. They had the volume to try and
                      >>>> compete with offshore rebuilders and did the automation to
                      >>>> increase production. They had automated core check-in with
                      >>>> bar coding and a sorting conveyor that we re-engineered from
                      >>>> a Quantum conveyor system that never did work. We dumped
                      >>>> the electronics and replaced them with a Linux powered
                      >>>> front end that handled the barcode readers and database
                      >>>> and a GE 90-30 PLC that ran the belts and divert gates.
                      >>>> We did it that way because we only had two weeks to get
                      >>>> the job done. The line I described before was built around
                      >>>> an automated rotor varnishing machine also built in house.
                      >>>> The rotors were loaded into an accumulator from teardown
                      >>>> and I wrote a machine vision system to steer a robot to pick
                      >>>> the next part, inspect it, and load it into the varnish
                      >>>> machine chain.
                      >>>> At the other end a robot picked them out and we did the
                      >>>> measuring and machining I described at the other end.
                      >>>> They also had automated regulator testing which I wrote
                      >>>> and developed on a Linux system. That was sold to others
                      >>>> as well. In the end, even with these bottlenecks eliminated
                      >>>> the import price fell faster than they could cut the cost
                      >>>> of production and Westling is no more. I still did some
                      >>>> work for John Westling about 6 months ago, but that is
                      >>>> on a 2 man shop level doing specialties. I don't think
                      >>>> he will mind my telling the tale. I truly enjoyed the
                      >>>> work and wish something like it would come up again,
                      >>>> but we don't do manufacturing here any more. And I'm
                      >>>> still, apparently, not qualified to do it:^)
                      >>>>
                      >>>> Regards
                      >>>>
                      >>>> cww
                      >>>>
                      >>>> C4C wrote:
                      >>>>> Curt,
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Back in the 20th century my uncle owned an automotive electrical repair shop and his equiptment was pretty much limited to an arbor press, growler, armatuer growler, armatuer lathe, test stand and a drill press.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Please bring me up to speed with what's going on today where CNC equiptment is being used for rebuilding alternators. Technology is rapidly leaving me behind so I must make an effort to somewhat keep up with it.
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> C4C
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                      >>>>>> They said you can't CNC slip rings when rebuilding alternators
                      >>>>>> because it's a judgement call when you have removed the damage
                      >>>>>> and if the copper that's left is thick enough. And many alternators
                      >>>>>> have been previously rebuilt and have non-factory slip rings of
                      >>>>>> differing dimensions and they are pressed on to different places,
                      >>>>>> etc. etc. But if you define the problem correctly, it's find the
                      >>>>>> copper, turn a few thousandths past the damage and wear and if
                      >>>>>> that will make it too thin send it for new slip rings. I built
                      >>>>>> a shadowgraph type machine vision fixture and programmed the
                      >>>>>> camera to find the top and bottom of the slip ring assy, measure
                      >>>>>> the major and minor diameters and pass this to the CNC lathe
                      >>>>>> where the number of passes were calculated and the coordinates
                      >>>>>> and away we go. The inspection limits were calculated from the
                      >>>>>> statistical analysis of the past profiles that were stored.
                      >>>>>> The program coordinated the robot that loaded them into the air
                      >>>>>> chuck to be measured and placed and removed them from the lathe
                      >>>>>> chuck before and after turning. The point in all this is that,
                      >>>>>> how you define the problem can make the difference between
                      >>>>>> possible or not. No, the machine can't do it the way the person
                      >>>>>> can, but that doesn't mean the machine can't do it.
                      >>>>>> Of course, according to the HR people I'm dealing with, I'm
                      >>>>>> not qualified to do anything like this, so you'ld be better
                      >>>>>> off ignoring me :^).
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> Regards
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> cww
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>>
                      >>>>>> pjkettlejr wrote:
                      >>>>>>> Completing such a task is especially rewarding when the person telling you that it can't be done proclaims him/herself as an 'expert' in the field.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> I had a friend who set up a simple production process for a precious metal crucible that a graduate engineer at GE Carbon Products told him was 'impossible' to machine. The following year, Al got the exclusive contract for all the work previously done by GE.
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Sparber" <rgsparber@> wrote:
                      >>>>>>>> Curt,
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> Nothing motivates me more than being told that it can't be done.
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>> Rick
                      >>>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>> ------------------------------------
                      >>>
                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • j. eric townsend
                      ... hey, those are some of my relatives! Seriously, tho, which version of linux you use makes a huge difference. I ve set up Ubuntu a few times recently and it
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 10, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        C4C wrote:
                        > Curt,
                        >
                        > I really think that it's a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being as how I was seeking help I had to keep my opinions to myself. My opinion of Linux was that it must have been created by those three guys in the movie Deliverance.
                        >

                        hey, those are some of my relatives!

                        Seriously, tho, which version of linux you use makes a huge difference.

                        I've set up Ubuntu a few times recently and it just magically worked for
                        basic web browsing and email, even on obscure hardware

                        On the other hand, I've had to work with gentoo on recent hardware and
                        got nowhere fast. I've been working with *nix since the late 80s I
                        could never get anything together in a short amount of time, much less
                        anything that was reliable/usable.


                        --
                        J. E. 'jet' Townsend, IDSA
                        Design, Fabrication, Hacking
                        design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net; HF: KG6ZVQ
                        PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8
                      • Mike Nicewonger
                        ... Very much so. Recent releases of Ubuntu are very very nize. ... Heh. For cranky to install can you say Slackware? (Knew ya could!) I cut my *nix teeth on
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 10, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On May 10, 2010, at 12:43 PM, j. eric townsend wrote:

                          > hey, those are some of my relatives!
                          >
                          > Seriously, tho, which version of linux you use makes a huge
                          > difference.
                          >

                          > I've set up Ubuntu a few times recently and it just magically worked
                          > for
                          > basic web browsing and email, even on obscure hardware

                          Very much so. Recent releases of Ubuntu are very very nize.

                          > On the other hand, I've had to work with gentoo on recent hardware and
                          > got nowhere fast. I've been working with *nix since the late 80s I
                          > could never get anything together in a short amount of time, much less
                          > anything that was reliable/usable.

                          Heh. For cranky to install can you say Slackware? (Knew ya could!)

                          I cut my *nix teeth on Open BSD. Everything else is a snap!

                          --
                          Mike N

                          No, I'm not getting crankier as I get older. That's not it.
                          I just find I enjoy annoying people a lot more these days.
                        • curt wuollet
                          And those differences are moot for the industrial applications I have been writing. They run headless that is, with no keyboard and monitor, and since Ubuntu
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 10, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            And those differences are moot for the industrial
                            applications I have been writing. They run "headless"
                            that is, with no keyboard and monitor, and since Ubuntu
                            and Fedora, for example may use the same kernel, either
                            would be the same for what I do. It's a semantics issue.
                            Windows is the only one where the OS is inseparable from
                            the user interface, Most Linux distributions use the same
                            OS, they differ in what GUI is used and the appication
                            programs distributed with the OS and the care with which
                            those applications are selected and tested. I find the
                            actual OS to be consistently reliable and sound. All
                            the surrounding programs and utilities are far more
                            variable. Most people today tend to confuse what you
                            see and interact with, with the OS itself. The OS is
                            probably less than 3% of a typical distribution, even
                            if you count the drivers. In that respect Linux is
                            more like DOS than Windows, all the bells and
                            whistles are separate programs running on top.

                            Regards

                            cww


                            j. eric townsend wrote:
                            > C4C wrote:
                            >> Curt,
                            >>
                            >> I really think that it's a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being as how I was seeking help I had to keep my opinions to myself. My opinion of Linux was that it must have been created by those three guys in the movie Deliverance.
                            >>
                            >
                            > hey, those are some of my relatives!
                            >
                            > Seriously, tho, which version of linux you use makes a huge difference.
                            >
                            > I've set up Ubuntu a few times recently and it just magically worked for
                            > basic web browsing and email, even on obscure hardware
                            >
                            > On the other hand, I've had to work with gentoo on recent hardware and
                            > got nowhere fast. I've been working with *nix since the late 80s I
                            > could never get anything together in a short amount of time, much less
                            > anything that was reliable/usable.
                            >
                            >
                          • j. eric townsend
                            Yeah, that s why I was spending (wasting?) time with gentoo. I wanted to build the most minimal linux distro possible for use on some headless A/V gear that
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 10, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yeah, that's why I was spending (wasting?) time with gentoo. I wanted
                              to build the most minimal linux distro possible for use on some headless
                              A/V gear that routed video over TCP/IP.


                              curt wuollet wrote:
                              > And those differences are moot for the industrial
                              > applications I have been writing. They run "headless"
                              > that is, with no keyboard and monitor, and since Ubuntu
                              > and Fedora, for example may use the same kernel, either
                              > would be the same for what I do. It's a semantics issue.
                              > Windows is the only one where the OS is inseparable from
                              > the user interface, Most Linux distributions use the same
                              > OS, they differ in what GUI is used and the appication
                              > programs distributed with the OS and the care with which
                              > those applications are selected and tested. I find the
                              > actual OS to be consistently reliable and sound. All
                              > the surrounding programs and utilities are far more
                              > variable. Most people today tend to confuse what you
                              > see and interact with, with the OS itself. The OS is
                              > probably less than 3% of a typical distribution, even
                              > if you count the drivers. In that respect Linux is
                              > more like DOS than Windows, all the bells and
                              > whistles are separate programs running on top.
                              >
                              > Regards
                              >
                              > cww
                              >
                              >
                              > j. eric townsend wrote:
                              >> C4C wrote:
                              >>> Curt,
                              >>>
                              >>> I really think that it's a matter of personal preference. When I was fumbling around with Linux I read post where people were trashing Windows and being as how I was seeking help I had to keep my opinions to myself. My opinion of Linux was that it must have been created by those three guys in the movie Deliverance.
                              >>>
                              >> hey, those are some of my relatives!
                              >>
                              >> Seriously, tho, which version of linux you use makes a huge difference.
                              >>
                              >> I've set up Ubuntu a few times recently and it just magically worked for
                              >> basic web browsing and email, even on obscure hardware
                              >>
                              >> On the other hand, I've had to work with gentoo on recent hardware and
                              >> got nowhere fast. I've been working with *nix since the late 80s I
                              >> could never get anything together in a short amount of time, much less
                              >> anything that was reliable/usable.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              --
                              J. E. 'jet' Townsend, IDSA
                              Design, Fabrication, Hacking
                              design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net; HF: KG6ZVQ
                              PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8
                            • Mike Nicewonger
                              ... Have you tried damn small linux? www.damnsmalllinux.org -- Mike N
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 10, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On May 10, 2010, at 6:24 PM, j. eric townsend wrote:

                                > Yeah, that's why I was spending (wasting?) time with gentoo. I wanted
                                > to build the most minimal linux distro possible for use on some
                                > headless
                                > A/V gear that routed video over TCP/IP.

                                Have you tried damn small linux?

                                www.damnsmalllinux.org

                                --
                                Mike N
                              • tjwal
                                Curt Not necessarily so. China wasn t stuck with a bunch of 50+ year old factories, machines and practices. The majority of them are less than 20 years old.
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 11, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Curt
                                  Not necessarily so. China wasn't stuck with a bunch of 50+ year old factories, machines and practices. The majority of them are less than 20 years old. It's a lot easier for them to go the CNC route because of that.

                                  Most of their quality problems seems to be with crappy material and poor assembly practices.

                                  Its a bit tougher for NA to do that since we have to write off a bunch of equipment and retrain workers.

                                  JohnW

                                  --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                                  > in Mexico and China.
                                • Corey Renner
                                  And pay a minimum wage, and please OSHA, and meet environmental standards, and not employ children or prisoners, etc, etc.... c
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 11, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    And pay a minimum wage, and please OSHA, and meet environmental standards, and not employ children or prisoners, etc, etc....

                                    c

                                    On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:09 AM, tjwal <johnwa@...> wrote:

                                    Its a bit tougher for NA to do that since we have to write off a bunch of equipment and retrain workers.

                                    JohnW


                                  • curt wuollet
                                    Yes, but we can still compete in those areas that can be automated. The outsource advantage is in teardown and assembly. It s not too daunting to automate
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 12, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yes, but we can still compete in those areas that can be
                                      automated. The outsource advantage is in teardown and
                                      assembly. It's not too daunting to automate assembling
                                      one alternator, the OEMs do this. But you may have 30
                                      popular and 30 less popular, etc. and cheap labor will
                                      always be more competitive. For example, they wanted
                                      feasibility on having a robot sort the mix of parts
                                      coming out of the parts washer. To ID and plan trajectory
                                      for ninety part numbers that may be oriented in any aspect
                                      to pluck them from a moving belt might well be beyond
                                      NASA, and almost certainly beyond the compute resource of
                                      a PC. An experienced person can do this for a lot less than
                                      the amortized cost of a machine that could. Even the gripper
                                      design would be most intriguing. Taking 90 different things
                                      apart is even more complex. The "good" part was that certain
                                      alternators were so common and unreliable that the volume on
                                      those justified automation:^)

                                      Regards

                                      cww




                                      tjwal wrote:
                                      > Curt
                                      > Not necessarily so. China wasn't stuck with a bunch of 50+ year old factories, machines and practices. The majority of them are less than 20 years old. It's a lot easier for them to go the CNC route because of that.
                                      >
                                      > Most of their quality problems seems to be with crappy material and poor assembly practices.
                                      >
                                      > Its a bit tougher for NA to do that since we have to write off a bunch of equipment and retrain workers.
                                      >
                                      > JohnW
                                      >
                                      > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                                      >> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                                      >> in Mexico and China.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • C4C
                                      Curt, Are you capable of creating a Linux environment that supports Real Time applications? (100kH frequency timers) C4C
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 12, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Curt,

                                        Are you capable of creating a Linux environment that supports Real Time applications? (100kH frequency timers)

                                        C4C

                                        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yes, but we can still compete in those areas that can be
                                        > automated. The outsource advantage is in teardown and
                                        > assembly. It's not too daunting to automate assembling
                                        > one alternator, the OEMs do this. But you may have 30
                                        > popular and 30 less popular, etc. and cheap labor will
                                        > always be more competitive. For example, they wanted
                                        > feasibility on having a robot sort the mix of parts
                                        > coming out of the parts washer. To ID and plan trajectory
                                        > for ninety part numbers that may be oriented in any aspect
                                        > to pluck them from a moving belt might well be beyond
                                        > NASA, and almost certainly beyond the compute resource of
                                        > a PC. An experienced person can do this for a lot less than
                                        > the amortized cost of a machine that could. Even the gripper
                                        > design would be most intriguing. Taking 90 different things
                                        > apart is even more complex. The "good" part was that certain
                                        > alternators were so common and unreliable that the volume on
                                        > those justified automation:^)
                                        >
                                        > Regards
                                        >
                                        > cww
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > tjwal wrote:
                                        > > Curt
                                        > > Not necessarily so. China wasn't stuck with a bunch of 50+ year old factories, machines and practices. The majority of them are less than 20 years old. It's a lot easier for them to go the CNC route because of that.
                                        > >
                                        > > Most of their quality problems seems to be with crappy material and poor assembly practices.
                                        > >
                                        > > Its a bit tougher for NA to do that since we have to write off a bunch of equipment and retrain workers.
                                        > >
                                        > > JohnW
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                                        > >> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                                        > >> in Mexico and China.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • curt wuollet
                                        I believe so. I know the average distribution with the ticks turned up and kernel preemption is more than fast enough for PLC tasks with low latency and
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 12, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I believe so.
                                          I know the average distribution with the
                                          ticks turned up and kernel preemption is
                                          more than fast enough for PLC tasks with
                                          low latency and uncertainty. This improves
                                          with every release and these kernel options
                                          are in the mainstream kernel. SuSE and I'm
                                          sure, others offer dedicated RT stuff and
                                          they talk about nanosecond timing resolution.
                                          So they have to have very short ticks.
                                          My interest has been mostly what you can
                                          do with "normal" programming and I've seen
                                          high kHz rep rates with very little jitter.
                                          At one time I kept up with all this, but
                                          since it's become more than fast enough
                                          without doing anything special, I have
                                          pretty much assumed that decent code will
                                          be a couple orders of magnitude faster
                                          than what I need. Googling real time
                                          Linux should get current information.
                                          Linux is huge in the embedded market, so
                                          there are a lot of people working on this.

                                          Regards

                                          cww


                                          C4C wrote:
                                          > Curt,
                                          >
                                          > Are you capable of creating a Linux environment that supports Real Time applications? (100kH frequency timers)
                                          >
                                          > C4C
                                          >
                                          > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@...> wrote:
                                          >> Yes, but we can still compete in those areas that can be
                                          >> automated. The outsource advantage is in teardown and
                                          >> assembly. It's not too daunting to automate assembling
                                          >> one alternator, the OEMs do this. But you may have 30
                                          >> popular and 30 less popular, etc. and cheap labor will
                                          >> always be more competitive. For example, they wanted
                                          >> feasibility on having a robot sort the mix of parts
                                          >> coming out of the parts washer. To ID and plan trajectory
                                          >> for ninety part numbers that may be oriented in any aspect
                                          >> to pluck them from a moving belt might well be beyond
                                          >> NASA, and almost certainly beyond the compute resource of
                                          >> a PC. An experienced person can do this for a lot less than
                                          >> the amortized cost of a machine that could. Even the gripper
                                          >> design would be most intriguing. Taking 90 different things
                                          >> apart is even more complex. The "good" part was that certain
                                          >> alternators were so common and unreliable that the volume on
                                          >> those justified automation:^)
                                          >>
                                          >> Regards
                                          >>
                                          >> cww
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> tjwal wrote:
                                          >>> Curt
                                          >>> Not necessarily so. China wasn't stuck with a bunch of 50+ year old factories, machines and practices. The majority of them are less than 20 years old. It's a lot easier for them to go the CNC route because of that.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Most of their quality problems seems to be with crappy material and poor assembly practices.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Its a bit tougher for NA to do that since we have to write off a bunch of equipment and retrain workers.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> JohnW
                                          >>>
                                          >>> --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, curt wuollet <wideopen1@> wrote:
                                          >>>> Don't worry, I'm sure it's back in the realm of hand work
                                          >>>> in Mexico and China.
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> ------------------------------------
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • jmg_000
                                          The Enhanced Machine Controller project is a Linux distribution with real time patches and a CNC controller already integrated: http://linuxcnc.org/
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 13, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The Enhanced Machine Controller project is a Linux distribution with real time patches and a CNC controller already integrated: http://linuxcnc.org/

                                            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "C4C" <cnc4cheap@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Curt,
                                            >
                                            > Are you capable of creating a Linux environment that supports Real Time applications? (100kH frequency timers)
                                            >
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.