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Matreial Removal standards

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  • Bill
    Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 9, 2009
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      Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove too much at one time.

      Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
      Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
      3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
      Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated, 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
      We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
      Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
      Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them out or resharpen them.
      Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate to pieces.
      We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
      I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is what I have right now.

      Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be asked and this post should be deleted?
      Bill Wood
    • C4C
      Bill, There are several sources for feed and speed values. Select the correct feed and speed for the material and type of cutter and let *reality govern the
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 9, 2009
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        Bill,

        There are several sources for feed and speed values. Select the correct feed and speed for the material and type of cutter and let *reality govern the volume of the material to be removed. Each machine will vary.

        C4C

        *reality is realized when the mechanical limitations of the machine start to occur. Once realized then back off until the limitations are no longer a problem.

        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <woodwd234@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove too much at one time.
        >
        > Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
        > Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
        > 3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
        > Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated, 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
        > We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
        > Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
        > Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them out or resharpen them.
        > Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate to pieces.
        > We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
        > I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is what I have right now.
        >
        > Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be asked and this post should be deleted?
        > Bill Wood
        >
      • curt wuollet
        Yes, frequently, metal removal rates are limited by things quite apart from brute force under hobby conditions. Usually, I set tool RPM close to what the
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 9, 2009
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          Yes, frequently, metal removal rates are
          limited by things quite apart from brute
          force under hobby conditions. Usually, I
          set tool RPM close to what the formula
          below gives:

          cutting speed x 4 / tool diameter = RPM

          Cutting speed is in SFM from a table.

          Then, since this is manual feed, I adjust
          the depth of cut and feed speed for the
          conditions.

          The reason that you can't give one standard
          figure is that some tools are sharper or
          ground differently, more flutes, some
          aluminum will weld to the endmill easily,
          chips can clog the works, tool length and
          quill extension will affect stiffness,
          clamping, phase of the moon, etc. And I
          can't eyeball the feed speed within 5
          % or turn the crank that steadily. And
          depth of cut and feed speed interact, IE,
          you can cut .5" if you feed slow enough.
          But, you don't have to experiment very
          long, (or break many endmills) before
          you have a feel for what you can do. I
          tend to err on the light side, the import
          endmills tend to vary a lot in quality.
          Chew up one good size chunk of aluminum
          and you'll have a ball park figure for
          aluminum with that size end mill. And
          it should be reasonably close for others
          within reason if you adjust the RPM by
          the formula. If in doubt, go slower.
          With these mills, steel will almost
          always feel a bit rocky, but it will
          work, if you use the formula and start
          a bit conservative.

          Regards

          cww

          C4C wrote:
          > Bill,
          >
          > There are several sources for feed and speed values. Select the correct feed and speed for the material and type of cutter and let *reality govern the volume of the material to be removed. Each machine will vary.
          >
          > C4C
          >
          > *reality is realized when the mechanical limitations of the machine start to occur. Once realized then back off until the limitations are no longer a problem.
          >
          > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <woodwd234@...> wrote:
          >> Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove too much at one time.
          >>
          >> Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
          >> Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
          >> 3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
          >> Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated, 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
          >> We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
          >> Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
          >> Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them out or resharpen them.
          >> Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate to pieces.
          >> We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
          >> I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is what I have right now.
          >>
          >> Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be asked and this post should be deleted?
          >> Bill Wood
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • david@fignoggle - IMAP
          i ve always found the numbers in machinery s handbook differ from those of end mill/drill manufacturers. confusing to say the least! it seems that more often
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 9, 2009
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            i've always found the numbers in machinery's handbook differ from those
            of end mill/drill manufacturers. confusing to say the least! it seems
            that more often than not, it starts with those "guideline" numbers and
            lot of trial and error to get the tool to work near optimal conditions.

            --
            --
            Spindle Lock for your Rong-Fu 45, Lathemaster, Sieg X3 <http://www.spindle-lock.com>
            CNC, Plans/Kits, 8x12 Lathe, Mini-Mill, How-Tos <http://www.fignoggle.com>
            Sieg X3/Super X3 Mill Information, HF/Enco Coupons <http://www.superx3.com>




            curt wuollet wrote:
            >
            > Yes, frequently, metal removal rates are
            > limited by things quite apart from brute
            > force under hobby conditions. Usually, I
            > set tool RPM close to what the formula
            > below gives:
            >
            > cutting speed x 4 / tool diameter = RPM
            >
            > Cutting speed is in SFM from a table.
            >
            > Then, since this is manual feed, I adjust
            > the depth of cut and feed speed for the
            > conditions.
            >
            > The reason that you can't give one standard
            > figure is that some tools are sharper or
            > ground differently, more flutes, some
            > aluminum will weld to the endmill easily,
            > chips can clog the works, tool length and
            > quill extension will affect stiffness,
            > clamping, phase of the moon, etc. And I
            > can't eyeball the feed speed within 5
            > % or turn the crank that steadily. And
            > depth of cut and feed speed interact, IE,
            > you can cut .5" if you feed slow enough.
            > But, you don't have to experiment very
            > long, (or break many endmills) before
            > you have a feel for what you can do. I
            > tend to err on the light side, the import
            > endmills tend to vary a lot in quality.
            > Chew up one good size chunk of aluminum
            > and you'll have a ball park figure for
            > aluminum with that size end mill. And
            > it should be reasonably close for others
            > within reason if you adjust the RPM by
            > the formula. If in doubt, go slower.
            > With these mills, steel will almost
            > always feel a bit rocky, but it will
            > work, if you use the formula and start
            > a bit conservative.
            >
            > Regards
            >
            > cww
            >
            > C4C wrote:
            > > Bill,
            > >
            > > There are several sources for feed and speed values. Select the
            > correct feed and speed for the material and type of cutter and let
            > *reality govern the volume of the material to be removed. Each machine
            > will vary.
            > >
            > > C4C
            > >
            > > *reality is realized when the mechanical limitations of the machine
            > start to occur. Once realized then back off until the limitations are
            > no longer a problem.
            > >
            > > --- In mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com
            > <mailto:mill_drill%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill" <woodwd234@. ..> wrote:
            > >> Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how
            > much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one
            > pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other
            > folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove
            > too much at one time.
            > >>
            > >> Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
            > >> Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
            > >> 3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
            > >> Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated,
            > 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
            > >> We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
            > >> Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking
            > 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
            > >> Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able
            > to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them
            > out or resharpen them.
            > >> Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate
            > to pieces.
            > >> We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or
            > cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
            > >> I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is
            > what I have right now.
            > >>
            > >> Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be
            > asked and this post should be deleted?
            > >> Bill Wood
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > This message has been scanned for viruses and
            > dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
            > believed to be clean.
          • curt wuollet
            I use the one in the Grizzly manual for their G3358 which corresponds to my Homier MD. And I usually shade low on both the SFM and use the next lower RPM. The
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 9, 2009
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              I use the one in the Grizzly
              manual for their G3358 which
              corresponds to my Homier MD.
              And I usually shade low on
              both the SFM and use the
              next lower RPM. The only
              place I've had a problem is
              with < 1/4" endmills. The
              machine doesn't really go
              fast enough for them and
              they clog, stop cutting,
              and break before you can
              even react. Two flute
              endmills and an air hose
              to keep the chips clear
              are indicated. I forgot
              to mention this in the
              first post.

              Regards

              cww

              david@fignoggle - IMAP wrote:
              > i've always found the numbers in machinery's handbook differ from those
              > of end mill/drill manufacturers. confusing to say the least! it seems
              > that more often than not, it starts with those "guideline" numbers and
              > lot of trial and error to get the tool to work near optimal conditions.
              >
            • Bill
              Thanks folks for all the replies. Looks like I have a lot more reading to do. And need to add on to my mill. I guess I need a speed indicator as that right
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 11, 2009
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                Thanks folks for all the replies.
                Looks like I have a lot more reading to do. And need to add on to my mill. I guess I need a speed indicator as that right now I'm just guessing.

                I was just looking for a rough number to determine if I was even close to what my thoughts on milling were. I have been wondering if I was milling a part correctly, when I was only able to remove about 1/16" (0.0625) of material at a pass; if I pushed everything really hard.

                I've been looking at some milling where I need to remove 1/4" (0.25) of material which is taking me hours or days to get completed. I've gotten to the point where I groan if I have to be milling more than 1/32" (0.031) off a part. Maybe a good set of headphones with a good radio station?

                - That is where I start getting dangerous ideas, standing there, slowly turning the crank, looking around the shop... Like, what if I jury rigged that cold cut chop saw and cut this materiel out? The blade has a kerf of 1/8" (0.125), two swipes, and it could be done in seconds or minutes..... hmmmmmmm.

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <woodwd234@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove too much at one time.
                >
                > Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
                > Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
                > 3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
                > Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated, 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
                > We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
                > Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
                > Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them out or resharpen them.
                > Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate to pieces.
                > We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
                > I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is what I have right now.
                >
                > Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be asked and this post should be deleted?
                > Bill Wood
                >
              • Corey Renner
                This is why power-feeds are so popular. 1. Much less boring than turning a crank 2. Much better surface finish 3. You can stand back far enough so that you
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 11, 2009
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                  This is why power-feeds are so popular. 

                  1. Much less boring than turning a crank
                  2. Much better surface finish
                  3. You can stand back far enough so that you don't get burned with hot chips
                  4. etc

                  This was one of the best improvements I made to my mill.

                  cheers,
                  c

                  On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Bill <woodwd234@...> wrote:

                  I groan if I have to be milling more than 1/32" (0.031) off a part. Maybe a good set of headphones with a good radio station?

                  - That is where I start getting dangerous ideas, standing there, slowly turning the crank, looking around the shop... Like, what if I jury rigged that cold cut chop saw and cut this materiel out? The blade has a kerf of 1/8" (0.125), two swipes, and it could be done in seconds or minutes..... hmmmmmmm.


                • vakil01
                  I had a Benchmaster mill - about the size of your mini-mill but a small knee mill, dovetail ways, very heavy, precise. It had exactly the same issues with
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 11, 2009
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                    I had a Benchmaster mill - about the size of your mini-mill but a small knee mill, dovetail ways, very heavy, precise. It had exactly the same issues with power as your mill. Aluminum was usually doable with small cuts but forget about steel or cast iron.

                    The solution, of course, is a larger mill. In my case an RF-45 with a power X feed. It opened a new world with groans!



                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <woodwd234@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks folks for all the replies.
                    > Looks like I have a lot more reading to do. And need to add on to my mill. I guess I need a speed indicator as that right now I'm just guessing.
                    >
                    > I was just looking for a rough number to determine if I was even close to what my thoughts on milling were. I have been wondering if I was milling a part correctly, when I was only able to remove about 1/16" (0.0625) of material at a pass; if I pushed everything really hard.
                    >
                    > I've been looking at some milling where I need to remove 1/4" (0.25) of material which is taking me hours or days to get completed. I've gotten to the point where I groan if I have to be milling more than 1/32" (0.031) off a part. Maybe a good set of headphones with a good radio station?
                    >
                    > - That is where I start getting dangerous ideas, standing there, slowly turning the crank, looking around the shop... Like, what if I jury rigged that cold cut chop saw and cut this materiel out? The blade has a kerf of 1/8" (0.125), two swipes, and it could be done in seconds or minutes..... hmmmmmmm.
                    >
                    > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <woodwd234@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Ok, here is a question. I have a HF mini-mill and was wondering how much material from something like 6061 aluminum can be removed in one pass? All this is hypothetical, I just wanted to get a feel for other folks experience and see if I'm trying/expecting to be able to remove too much at one time.
                    > >
                    > > Ok - Let's setup some parameters for that exercise.
                    > > Mini-mill - 4/5 hp, aluminum block, 6061-T6
                    > > 3x3inch block and we want to reduce one side to 2.5" and one to 2.75".
                    > > Let's try face-milling and side-milling, using 4-flute TiN coated, 1/2" end-mills. 1/2" is max for this mill-drill.
                    > > We can use cutting fluid or coolant if you want.
                    > > Speed is not as important, except when you get to a point of taking 3 passes and that equals the time to take one pass.
                    > > Since this is hobby, lets do it sanely and say we want to be able to use our bits again after the cut, instead of needing to throw them out or resharpen them.
                    > > Also, we don't want the mill to dance across the floor and vibrate to pieces.
                    > > We also don't want a rough finish that can not be buffed out or cleaned up by just taking another very shallow finishing pass.
                    > > I'm open on suggestions for other bits if necessary, but, this is what I have right now.
                    > >
                    > > Or, have I just asked a very involved question that shouldn't be asked and this post should be deleted?
                    > > Bill Wood
                    > >
                    >
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