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Several question on cutting dovetails?

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  • jer29_11_13
    I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which angles to buy. I own an Enco RF-45: 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 11 11:49 AM
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      I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which angles
      to buy.

      I own an Enco RF-45:

      1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of the
      x axis is?

      2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?

      3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
      site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?

      I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of AL,
      what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to move
      the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)

      Thank you for your valued advice!

      Fred
    • jer29_11_13
      Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)! ... angles ... the ... AL, ... move
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 12 7:00 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
        mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!

        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@...> wrote:
        >
        > I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which
        angles
        > to buy.
        >
        > I own an Enco RF-45:
        >
        > 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of
        the
        > x axis is?
        >
        > 2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?
        >
        > 3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
        > site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?
        >
        > I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of
        AL,
        > what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to
        move
        > the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)
        >
        > Thank you for your valued advice!
        >
        > Fred
        >
      • Rexarino
        Well, perhaps you can measure the angle on the front of the x axis yourself? As to what s common, 45 and 60 degrees are common, but some imports seem to have
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 12 7:24 PM
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          Well, perhaps you can measure the angle on the front of the x axis yourself?  As to what's common, 45 and 60 degrees are common, but some imports seem to have uncommon angles, which vary from one machine to another, so it's best to measure your machine - see first sentence.

          Use Google to find 53,000 sources for "dovetail milling cutters".   Common are MSC, McMaster Carr, Enco, Wholesale tools, Victor Machinery.

          Enco shows 34 products from the search term "dovetail cutter", either 45 or 60 degrees, don't know why you couldn't find any.

          I don't know the envelope of your machine, but I don't think it will cut 24" without moving the work, so what do you really want to know?

          Are you for real?  This seems like you haven't done any homework... perhaps you are new?  Or are you yanking our chains?

          rex

          On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 7:00 PM, jer29_11_13 <fconte@...> wrote:
          Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
          mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!

          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@...> wrote:
          >
          > I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which
          angles
          > to buy.
          >
          > I own an Enco RF-45:
          >
          > 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of
          the
          > x axis is?
          >
          > 2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?
          >
          > 3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
          > site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?
          >
          > I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of
          AL,
          > what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to
          move
          > the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)
          >
          > Thank you for your valued advice!
          >
          > Fred
          >




        • jer29_11_13
          Hi Rex, Thanks for your response - I m a real newbie - so no I wasn t really pulling anyones chain. ... some imports seem to have uncommon angles, which vary
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 13 5:16 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Rex,
            Thanks for your response - I'm a real newbie - so no I wasn't really
            pulling anyones chain.
            >
            > Well, perhaps you can measure the angle on the front of the x axis
            > yourself? As to what's common, 45 and 60 degrees are common, but
            some imports seem to have uncommon angles, which vary from one
            machine to another, so it's best to measure your machine - see first
            sentence.

            I did measure it and it seemed to be an odd size not 45 or 60 - I
            figured I had measured incorrectly so I asked thinking someone might
            know.

            > Use Google to find 53,000 sources for "dovetail milling cutters".
            Common are MSC, McMaster Carr, Enco, Wholesale tools, Victor
            Machinery. Enco shows 34 products from the search term "dovetail
            cutter", either 45 or 60 degrees, don't know why you couldn't find
            any.

            I was looking in an old catalog not the web, my mistake...I've been
            burnt before so I just wanted a recommendation as to a vendor.

            > I don't know the envelope of your machine, but I don't think it
            will cut 24" without moving the work, so what do you really want to
            know?
            No - this answered my question.

            > Are you for real? This seems like you haven't done any homework...
            perhaps you are new? Or are you yanking our chains?

            Being a newbie, I try not to ask what seems to be dumb questions but
            I needed a little guidance in this case. I tried doing a search
            here but came up empty. Your response is exactly why I and perhaps
            many other newbies hesitate to ask any questions of you more
            experienced and knowledgeable machinists.
            Machining metal is like learning a foreign language to me - but I am
            trying to learn it on my own.
            Enough said...
            Thanks again!
            Fred
          • pacer8020
            Hey Fred, had seen your request and just wouldnt slow down and respond.... As to what angle your machine is, I dont know, but would think that it is either 45
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 13 5:58 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hey Fred, had seen your request and just wouldnt slow down and respond....

              As to what angle your machine is, I dont know, but would think that it
              is either 45 or 60, these are by far the most common.

              Chinese dovetail cutter sets are pretty common, run around $50-100 in
              HSS from several of the suppliers. Slow speed & feed for dovetails,
              you got a lot of teeth making contact that will build up heat quickly.

              For starters, get on the web and ask for the catalogs from every one
              you can find ... you can learn a lot of terms and whats out there just
              from looking thru catalogs. I'll list a few that I like----Go to these
              sites and request their catalogs

              ENCO ... probably my most used, they have a monthly catalog/flyer
              called "hot deals" --- AND they ere is always some sort of promo going
              with them, free frt being a big lure. Obviously you are aware of them
              since your mill is theirs-- but maybe you dont know about the "hot deals"
              http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM

              CDCO is another good source...
              http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php

              Shars is another....they list a lot of stuff on ebay under the name
              "Discount tools"
              http://www.shars.com/

              As for milling your piece in one pass, I seriously doubt it, I'm not
              familiar with that mill, but naw... I just finished a project on my
              Bridgeport clone with a 42" table and had to get pretty inventive to
              work on an 18" piece.

              What are you wanting to do with that 24" piece?--- Maybe we could
              suggest a workaround?



              --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@...> wrote:
              >
              > Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
              > mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!
              >
              > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which
              > angles
              > > to buy.
              > >
              > > I own an Enco RF-45:
              > >
              > > 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of
              > the
              > > x axis is?
              > >
              > > 2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?
              > >
              > > 3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
              > > site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?
              > >
              > > I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of
              > AL,
              > > what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to
              > move
              > > the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)
              > >
              > > Thank you for your valued advice!
              > >
              > > Fred
              > >
              >
            • j.c.gerber@tbwil.ch
              Hi Fred I have no clue what for you want to make a dovetail in Aluminum. There is no way on an RF45 to cut it in one path, the carriage way being to short with
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 13 9:30 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Fred
                 
                I have no clue what for you want to make a dovetail in Aluminum. There is no way on an RF45 to cut it in one path, the carriage way being to short with its 20" travel (less at least the diameter of the cutter to get in and out).
                You must also be careful about the heat development and the aluminum "glueing" on the teeth. Spindle speed, feed speed and cooling must be very adequate for this work. 
                 
                My DM45 (RF45) clone has got dovetails of 55 degrees.
                 
                Jean-Claude, Switzerland
                www.homestead.com/turnandmill
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: pacer8020
                Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 2:58 PM
                Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Several question on cutting dovetails?

                Hey Fred, had seen your request and just wouldnt slow down and respond....

                As to what angle your machine is, I dont know, but would think that it
                is either 45 or 60, these are by far the most common.

                Chinese dovetail cutter sets are pretty common, run around $50-100 in
                HSS from several of the suppliers. Slow speed & feed for dovetails,
                you got a lot of teeth making contact that will build up heat quickly.

                For starters, get on the web and ask for the catalogs from every one
                you can find ... you can learn a lot of terms and whats out there just
                from looking thru catalogs. I'll list a few that I like----Go to these
                sites and request their catalogs

                ENCO ... probably my most used, they have a monthly catalog/flyer
                called "hot deals" --- AND they ere is always some sort of promo going
                with them, free frt being a big lure. Obviously you are aware of them
                since your mill is theirs-- but maybe you dont know about the "hot deals"
                http://www.use- enco.com/ CGI/INSRHM

                CDCO is another good source...
                http://www.cdcotool s.com/index. php

                Shars is another....they list a lot of stuff on ebay under the name
                "Discount tools"
                http://www.shars. com/

                As for milling your piece in one pass, I seriously doubt it, I'm not
                familiar with that mill, but naw... I just finished a project on my
                Bridgeport clone with a 42" table and had to get pretty inventive to
                work on an 18" piece.

                What are you wanting to do with that 24" piece?--- Maybe we could
                suggest a workaround?

                --- In mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@...> wrote:
                >
                > Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
                > mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills( LOL)!
                >
                > --- In mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which
                > angles
                > > to buy.
                > >
                > > I own an Enco RF-45:
                > >
                > > 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of
                > the
                > > x axis is?
                > >
                > > 2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?
                > >
                > > 3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
                > > site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?
                > >
                > > I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of
                > AL,
                > > what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to
                > move
                > > the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)
                > >
                > > Thank you for your valued advice!
                > >
                > > Fred
                > >
                >

              • Rexarino
                Fred, I didn t mean to offend you as a newbie, but there are lots of times when people ask questions that seem to reflect a general unwillingness to do their
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 13 11:32 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fred, I didn't mean to offend you as a newbie, but there are lots of times when people ask questions that seem to reflect a general unwillingness to do their own research, however, Newbies are expected to do that because they just don't know enough to know where/how to find the answers, so don't be offended.  For future questions, begin the post with something like "I'm new to machining". 

                  And posting:
                  "Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
                  mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!"

                  kinda begs for a smart ass/sharp tongued answer, eh?  I wasn't offended by your post, just thought to ask if you were serious or playing with us, which has happened.  I attempted to query you in terms that would elicit a response, it worked, and I apologize for my offensive language.  Ask dumb questions as often as you like, it let's us "experienced" (not) machinists feel important and smart (LOL).

                  A general message to newbies that does not reflect on Fred; 
                  Ask any question, but let us know what you really want to do and where you've looked for answers, so we don't suggest you do something you have done or post a response like "Google it yourself" which can be pretty abrupt to a new machinist.  Let us know that you need basic information, and you'll get help.  We all tend to think others are almost as knowledgeable as we are, so we generally give answers based on what we know, without giving the background that helps a new person get the picture.

                  Fred, If your dovetail is 55 degrees, buy a 45 degree cutter, make a cut nearly to depth with that cutter, then incline your work 10 degrees and repeat your cut.  Be sure to buy a cutter that will cut deep enough, otherwise you will have to make/buy another cutter to finish the cut (voice of experience).  You can also make a cutter for aluminum, not trivial, but can be done if you have a lathe.

                  You will have to cut one end, then move the work to cut the rest.  This is easier if you have a straight piece of stock to start with, and can clamp a guide bar to the mill table to set the work against.  You will additionally need to use a dial indicator to verify that the part you have cut is clamped parallel to the table after you move it, and it will be a learning experience to pick up the cut depth for the second cut - you want the cutter to just "kiss" the previous cut to establish depth.

                  rex

                  On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:16 AM, jer29_11_13 <fconte@...> wrote:

                  Hi Rex,
                  Thanks for your response - I'm a real newbie - so no I wasn't really
                  pulling anyones chain.
                  >
                  > Well, perhaps you can measure the angle on the front of the x axis
                  > yourself?  As to what's common, 45 and 60 degrees are common, but
                  some imports seem to have uncommon angles, which vary from one
                  machine to another, so it's best to measure your machine - see first
                  sentence.

                  I did measure it and it seemed to be an odd size not 45 or 60 - I
                  figured I had measured incorrectly so I asked thinking someone might
                  know.

                  > Use Google to find 53,000 sources for "dovetail milling cutters".
                  Common are MSC, McMaster Carr, Enco, Wholesale tools, Victor
                  Machinery.  Enco shows 34 products from the search term "dovetail
                  cutter", either 45 or 60 degrees, don't know why you couldn't find
                  any.

                  I was looking in an old catalog not the web, my mistake...I've been
                  burnt before so I just wanted a recommendation as to a vendor.

                  > I don't know the envelope of your machine, but I don't think it
                  will cut 24" without moving the work, so what do you really want to
                  know?
                  No - this answered my question.

                  > Are you for real?  This seems like you haven't done any homework...
                  perhaps you are new?  Or are you yanking our chains?

                  Being a newbie, I try not to ask what seems to be dumb questions but
                  I needed a little guidance in this case.   I tried doing a search
                  here but came up empty.  Your response is exactly why I and perhaps
                  many other newbies hesitate to ask any questions of you more
                  experienced and knowledgeable machinists.
                  Machining metal is like learning a foreign language to me - but I am
                  trying to learn it on my own.
                  Enough said...
                  Thanks again!
                  Fred


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                • ron Pat
                  its also a whole lot  easier on your dovetail cutter to take as much metal off with a straight cutter as can you before using the dovetail cutter. ... From:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 13 2:23 PM
                  • 0 Attachment

                    its also a whole lot  easier on your dovetail cutter to take as much metal off with a straight cutter as can you before using the dovetail cutter.

                    --- On Wed, 8/13/08, j.c.gerber@... <j.c.gerber@...> wrote:
                    From: j.c.gerber@... <j.c.gerber@...>
                    Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Several question on cutting dovetails?
                    To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 11:30 AM

                    Hi Fred
                     
                    I have no clue what for you want to make a dovetail in Aluminum. There is no way on an RF45 to cut it in one path, the carriage way being to short with its 20" travel (less at least the diameter of the cutter to get in and out).
                    You must also be careful about the heat development and the aluminum "glueing" on the teeth. Spindle speed, feed speed and cooling must be very adequate for this work. 
                     
                    My DM45 (RF45) clone has got dovetails of 55 degrees.
                     
                    Jean-Claude, Switzerland
                    www.homestead.com/turnandmill
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: pacer8020
                    Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 2:58 PM
                    Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Several question on cutting dovetails?

                    Hey Fred, had seen your request and just wouldnt slow down and respond....

                    As to what angle your machine is, I dont know, but would think that it
                    is either 45 or 60, these are by far the most common.

                    Chinese dovetail cutter sets are pretty common, run around $50-100 in
                    HSS from several of the suppliers. Slow speed & feed for dovetails,
                    you got a lot of teeth making contact that will build up heat quickly.

                    For starters, get on the web and ask for the catalogs from every one
                    you can find ... you can learn a lot of terms and whats out there just
                    from looking thru catalogs. I'll list a few that I like----Go to these
                    sites and request their catalogs

                    ENCO ... probably my most used, they have a monthly catalog/flyer
                    called "hot deals" --- AND they ere is always some sort of promo going
                    with them, free frt being a big lure. Obviously you are aware of them
                    since your mill is theirs-- but maybe you dont know about the "hot deals"
                    http://www.use- enco.com/ CGI/INSRHM

                    CDCO is another good source...
                    http://www.cdcotool s.com/index. php

                    Shars is another....they list a lot of stuff on ebay under the name
                    "Discount tools"
                    http://www.shars. com/

                    As for milling your piece in one pass, I seriously doubt it, I'm not
                    familiar with that mill, but naw... I just finished a project on my
                    Bridgeport clone with a 42" table and had to get pretty inventive to
                    work on an 18" piece.

                    What are you wanting to do with that 24" piece?--- Maybe we could
                    suggest a workaround?

                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
                    > mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills( LOL)!
                    >
                    > --- In mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com, "jer29_11_13" <fconte@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I want to order (some) dovetail cutters but I am not sure which
                    > angles
                    > > to buy.
                    > >
                    > > I own an Enco RF-45:
                    > >
                    > > 1. Does anyone know what the angle of the dovetail on the front of
                    > the
                    > > x axis is?
                    > >
                    > > 2. Which is the most common angle...60 degrees?
                    > >
                    > > 3. I've looked at the Grizzly cutters, can't find them on the Enco
                    > > site ???, can anyone suggest another vendor?
                    > >
                    > > I want to cut an angle along both long edges of a 24" x 5/8" bar of
                    > AL,
                    > > what would be the best setup to accomplish this without having to
                    > move
                    > > the stock for one side (multiple passes, if needed are okay)
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for your valued advice!
                    > >
                    > > Fred
                    > >
                    >


                  • jer29_11_13
                    Rex - Thanks for this excellent response, and no I m not offended, I would even go as far as suggesting, with some modification (to protect the innocent LOL!),
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 13 2:35 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Rex - Thanks for this excellent response, and no I'm not offended,
                      I would even go as far as suggesting, with some modification (to
                      protect the innocent LOL!), putting this in the files section
                      labelled "Must Read for Newbies".

                      You addressed a very key point - often I don't know where to start or
                      what to ask - and when I do ask I may not ask correctly and with the
                      proper terminology.

                      My second post was only to get an answer - there was a very long OT
                      going on - and my original post seemed to have gotten lost in it.

                      Your example suggestion of starting with a 45 deg cutter and then
                      tilting the work another 10 deg to get 55 deg would have never
                      occurred to me(DUH!). I would have searched the web for that 55 deg
                      cutter and probably gotten frustrated(LOL!)
                      But using your example, I wouldn't know how to set the work up
                      properly to get that 10 deg cut, I may be wrong but I haven't seen in
                      any books that I own on how to properly set jobs up, if you know of
                      one please suggest it. I have read how you should plan out the
                      steps to save time and minimize the changing of setups.

                      So you see where I am coming from "Newbiedom", I will definitely
                      prologue my posts with "Newbie Question" (LOL!)

                      Thanks again for your advice and assistance...

                      Fred

                      --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Rexarino <rexarino@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Fred, I didn't mean to offend you as a newbie, but there are lots
                      of times
                      > when people ask questions that seem to reflect a general
                      unwillingness to do
                      > their own research, however, Newbies are expected to do that
                      because they
                      > just don't know enough to know where/how to find the answers, so
                      don't be
                      > offended. For future questions, begin the post with something
                      like "I'm new
                      > to machining".
                      >
                      > And posting:
                      > "Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
                      > mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!"
                      >
                      > kinda begs for a smart ass/sharp tongued answer, eh? I wasn't
                      offended by
                      > your post, just thought to ask if you were serious or playing with
                      us, which
                      > has happened. I attempted to query you in terms that would elicit a
                      > response, it worked, and I apologize for my offensive language.
                      Ask dumb
                      > questions as often as you like, it let's us "experienced" (not)
                      machinists
                      > feel important and smart (LOL).
                      >
                      > A general message to newbies that does not reflect on Fred;
                      > Ask any question, but let us know what you really want to do and
                      where
                      > you've looked for answers, so we don't suggest you do something you
                      have
                      > done or post a response like "Google it yourself" which can be
                      pretty abrupt
                      > to a new machinist. Let us know that you need basic information,
                      and you'll
                      > get help. We all tend to think others are almost as knowledgeable
                      as we
                      > are, so we generally give answers based on what we know, without
                      giving the
                      > background that helps a new person get the picture.
                      >
                      > Fred, If your dovetail is 55 degrees, buy a 45 degree cutter, make
                      a cut
                      > nearly to depth with that cutter, then incline your work 10 degrees
                      and
                      > repeat your cut. Be sure to buy a cutter that will cut deep enough,
                      > otherwise you will have to make/buy another cutter to finish the
                      cut (voice
                      > of experience). You can also make a cutter for aluminum, not
                      trivial, but
                      > can be done if you have a lathe.
                      >
                      > You will have to cut one end, then move the work to cut the rest.
                      This is
                      > easier if you have a straight piece of stock to start with, and can
                      clamp a
                      > guide bar to the mill table to set the work against. You will
                      additionally
                      > need to use a dial indicator to verify that the part you have cut
                      is clamped
                      > parallel to the table after you move it, and it will be a learning
                      > experience to pick up the cut depth for the second cut - you want
                      the cutter
                      > to just "kiss" the previous cut to establish depth.
                      >
                      > rex
                      >
                    • jer29_11_13
                      WOW, so many responses! Many thanks to everyone for your valued advice! What I wanted to make was something similar to the following: Dovetail Bar
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 13 3:09 PM
                      • 0 Attachment


                        WOW, so many responses!   Many thanks to everyone for your valued advice!

                        What I wanted to make was something similar to the following: Dovetail Bar for my telescope with the two riser blocks.

                        I went to the junkyard (25 miles oneway) and picked up a nice piece of heavy walled extruded AL that will work without having to purchase a dovetail cutter for now.   The junk AL prices here seem high - $2.50/LB or maybe that's good I have no comparisons.

                        Thanks again...

                        Fred

                         

                      • corey renner
                        The local Metal Supermarket sells AL cutoffs for $3.50/# this is up from $3/# last year. HTH, c On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:09 PM, jer29_11_13
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 13 3:11 PM
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                          The local Metal Supermarket sells AL cutoffs for $3.50/# this is up
                          from $3/# last year.

                          HTH,
                          c

                          On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 3:09 PM, jer29_11_13 <fconte@...> wrote:
                          The junk AL prices here seem high - $2.50/LB or maybe
                          > that's good I have no comparisons.
                          >
                          > Thanks again...
                          >
                          > Fred
                        • Glenn N
                          Thanks for turning the topic back Fred :) This should get you started on how to hold the parts ... It is going to take some inventiveness :)
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 13 3:15 PM
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                            Thanks for turning the topic back Fred :)
                             
                            This should get you started on how to hold the parts ... It is going to take some inventiveness :)
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 2:35 PM
                            Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Several question on cutting dovetails?

                            Rex - Thanks for this excellent response, and no I'm not offended,
                            I would even go as far as suggesting, with some modification (to
                            protect the innocent LOL!), putting this in the files section
                            labelled "Must Read for Newbies".

                            You addressed a very key point - often I don't know where to start or
                            what to ask - and when I do ask I may not ask correctly and with the
                            proper terminology.

                            My second post was only to get an answer - there was a very long OT
                            going on - and my original post seemed to have gotten lost in it.

                            Your example suggestion of starting with a 45 deg cutter and then
                            tilting the work another 10 deg to get 55 deg would have never
                            occurred to me(DUH!).  I would have searched the web for that 55 deg 
                            cutter and probably gotten frustrated(LOL!)
                            But using your example, I wouldn't know how to set the work up
                            properly to get that 10 deg cut, I may be wrong but I haven't seen in
                            any books that I own on how to properly set jobs up, if you know of
                            one please suggest it.   I have read how you should plan out the
                            steps to save time and minimize the changing of setups.

                            So you see where I am coming from "Newbiedom", I will definitely
                            prologue my posts with "Newbie Question" (LOL!)

                            Thanks again for your advice and assistance...

                            Fred

                            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, Rexarino <rexarino@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Fred, I didn't mean to offend you as a newbie, but there are lots
                            of times
                            > when people ask questions that seem to reflect a general
                            unwillingness to do
                            > their own research, however, Newbies are expected to do that
                            because they
                            > just don't know enough to know where/how to find the answers, so
                            don't be
                            > offended.  For future questions, begin the post with something
                            like "I'm new
                            > to machining".
                            >
                            > And posting:
                            > "Perhaps I should have posted this on another forum...a real
                            > mill_drill forum that talks about mill_drills(LOL)!"
                            >
                            > kinda begs for a smart ass/sharp tongued answer, eh?  I wasn't
                            offended by
                            > your post, just thought to ask if you were serious or playing with
                            us, which
                            > has happened.  I attempted to query you in terms that would elicit a
                            > response, it worked, and I apologize for my offensive language. 
                            Ask dumb
                            > questions as often as you like, it let's us "experienced" (not)
                            machinists
                            > feel important and smart (LOL).
                            >
                            > A general message to newbies that does not reflect on Fred;
                            > Ask any question, but let us know what you really want to do and
                            where
                            > you've looked for answers, so we don't suggest you do something you
                            have
                            > done or post a response like "Google it yourself" which can be
                            pretty abrupt
                            > to a new machinist.  Let us know that you need basic information,
                            and you'll
                            > get help.  We all tend to think others are almost as knowledgeable
                            as we
                            > are, so we generally give answers based on what we know, without
                            giving the
                            > background that helps a new person get the picture.
                            >
                            > Fred, If your dovetail is 55 degrees, buy a 45 degree cutter, make
                            a cut
                            > nearly to depth with that cutter, then incline your work 10 degrees
                            and
                            > repeat your cut.  Be sure to buy a cutter that will cut deep enough,
                            > otherwise you will have to make/buy another cutter to finish the
                            cut (voice
                            > of experience).  You can also make a cutter for aluminum, not
                            trivial, but
                            > can be done if you have a lathe.
                            >
                            > You will have to cut one end, then move the work to cut the rest. 
                            This is
                            > easier if you have a straight piece of stock to start with, and can
                            clamp a
                            > guide bar to the mill table to set the work against.  You will
                            additionally
                            > need to use a dial indicator to verify that the part you have cut
                            is clamped
                            > parallel to the table after you move it, and it will be a learning
                            > experience to pick up the cut depth for the second cut - you want
                            the cutter
                            > to just "kiss" the previous cut to establish depth.
                            >
                            > rex
                            >


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                          • jer29_11_13
                            Excellent site Glenn, thank you! Several books I have show these different methods of work holding but as Rex suggested how would secure a 5/8 x 1 1/2 x 24
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 13 6:54 PM
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                              Excellent site Glenn, thank you!

                              Several books I have show these different methods of work holding but
                              as Rex suggested how would secure a 5/8" x 1 1/2" x 24" solid bar at 10
                              deg incline is not as clear. I guess I could shim the whole length at
                              the proper height to achieve the proper angle.

                              Nonethelss, I have taken a different course with some 1/4" extruded AL
                              that will get the same results.

                              I'll hold off on buying dovetail cutters for the time being.

                              Fred
                            • jer29_11_13
                              Pacer thanks for the references I went and book marked them all and will contact them tomorrow for catalogs.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 13 7:16 PM
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                                Pacer thanks for the references I went and book marked them all and
                                will contact them tomorrow for catalogs.
                              • Rexarino
                                Fred, since I have a tilting vise, similar to the universal vise on the site Glenn mentioned, I would build a set of 10 degree inclined planes to hold the work
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 14 1:32 AM
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                                  Fred, since I have a tilting vise, similar to the universal vise on the site Glenn mentioned, I would build a set of 10 degree inclined planes to hold the work (fixtures).  Each fixture would be identical to the others, having a slope with a piece left at the deep end to act as a stop for the work.  I'd use a guide bar on the mill table to set all the inclined plane fixtures against so they were holding at the same height and were parallel.  I might even mill and drill recessed and counterbored holes for hold down bolts right in the fixtures.

                                  Now, how do you clamp the work to that?  If you push straight down, the 10 degree blocks will want to scoot backwards, so you better clamp the guide bar down "behind" the fixtures and use it to keep the fixtures in place (if the fixtures aren't bolted to the table).  The left hand side of Figure 12, Glenn's reference page, shows curved hold-downs.  These will clamp a workpiece even if the surface is inclined, and I think they will work at 10 degrees.  If not, you may need to drill your workpiece and bolt it to the fixtures, then secure the fixtures with normal clamps, or you could mill the end of a strap clamp at 10 degrees and use that.  You could also include provisions for a clamp on your fixtures.

                                  Another way of holding work at an angle uses a sine plate.  This is a device that has a round pivot along one side and a round bar on the other side, which you support with gage blocks or jacks to achieve the correct angle.  The height of support you need is the sin of the angle you want times the distance between the two round bars.

                                  Another possibility is building a heavy duty "hinge" that has adjusters to hold it at a specific angle.  One of these was the subject of an article in Machinists Workshop or Home Shop Machinist a few years ago.

                                  You could mill a pair of sacrificial vise jaws at plus 10 degrees on one side and minus 10 degrees on the other and clamp the work in the  vise, making short cuts, and moving the workpiece laterally between cuts, but it would be hard to achieve accuracy with this setup.

                                  Theoretically, you could bolt 2 different diameter bars to the table, at the correct distance apart to create a 10 degree slope across the top, then find a way to hold the work on the bars....

                                  For those coming from a woodworking background, fixtures are seldom used unless you have repetive cuts or multiple uses for the fixture.  For a machinist, the time spent making the fixture can easily exceed the time cutting the work, and a fixture may be needed for every piece of a project.

                                  rex


                                  On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:35 PM, jer29_11_13 <fconte@...> wrote:
                                  Rex - Thanks for this excellent response, and no I'm not offended,
                                  I would even go as far as suggesting, with some modification (to
                                  protect the innocent LOL!), putting this in the files section
                                  labelled "Must Read for Newbies".

                                  You addressed a very key point - often I don't know where to start or
                                  what to ask - and when I do ask I may not ask correctly and with the
                                  proper terminology.

                                  My second post was only to get an answer - there was a very long OT
                                  going on - and my original post seemed to have gotten lost in it.

                                  Your example suggestion of starting with a 45 deg cutter and then
                                  tilting the work another 10 deg to get 55 deg would have never
                                  occurred to me(DUH!).  I would have searched the web for that 55 deg
                                  cutter and probably gotten frustrated(LOL!)
                                  But using your example, I wouldn't know how to set the work up
                                  properly to get that 10 deg cut, I may be wrong but I haven't seen in
                                  any books that I own on how to properly set jobs up, if you know of
                                  one please suggest it.   I have read how you should plan out the
                                  steps to save time and minimize the changing of setups.

                                  So you see where I am coming from "Newbiedom", I will definitely
                                  prologue my posts with "Newbie Question" (LOL!)

                                  Thanks again for your advice and assistance...

                                  Fred

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