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Re: [mill_drill] Re: Machine selection for a newbie

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  • rgsparber@aol.com
    Chuck, One bit of good and common wisdom is to start by going to a community college to better understand what you want to do and what class of machine you
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 31, 2007
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      Chuck,

      One bit of good and common wisdom is to start by going to a community
      college to better understand what you want to do and what class of machine you
      really want. I did this many years ago and it helped me a lot. What machine you
      buy is such a personal choice, I really doubt anyone on the web knows you well
      enough to recommend your ideal machine.

      Another bit of great advice I received early in my journey is to read as
      much as you can about your new hobby. There are many wonderful books plus a huge
      amount of knowledge on the various yahoo group achieves.

      Furthermore, if you can join a local metal club, you will get face to face
      help. I was in a metal club in IL for many years and now belong to one in AZ.
      Both groups have been extremely generous with their knowledge.

      Rick
      rgsparber@...
      web site: http://rick.sparber.org




      **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
      (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
    • figNoggle
      hi chuck- if space and budget allows, go for the larger mill from any of the vendors ed mentioned. we still use our x2 for production parts under cnc (our own
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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        hi chuck-

        if space and budget allows, go for the larger mill from any of the vendors
        ed mentioned. we still use our x2 for production parts under cnc (our own
        conversion), but make use of the rf-45 clone from enco (when purchased on
        sale w/free shipping) quite frequently.

        having said that, starting with an x2 is a great way to get started in
        your garage. one advantage of working with a smaller machine is that it
        challenges you to think about how to work around the work envelope
        constraints.

        hope this helps!
        david

        --

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        On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, ekdadlec wrote:

        > Chuck,
        >
        > You may want to check some of the other vendors for a dovetail column
        > mill. They are available for less money than the Grizzly G1006 that
        > you are considering. Try Wholesale Tools, Enco and Penn Tools. They
        > all have dovetail column mills.
        >
        > Ed
        >
        > --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "ceb_fangler" <ceb_fangler@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Greetings all, I'm looking at various mill/drills trying to decide
        >> which would be best for me. Frankly after several days I haven't made
        >> much progress. And I have a christmas bonus burning a hole in my
        >> pocket! LoL!
        >>
        >> I've been eyeballing the smaller CNC machines but I have limited
        >> experience in machining and a friend talked me into spending my budget
        >> on a manual machine PLUS tooling, accessories and instructional
        >> material, instead of all on the machine alone.
        >>
        >> I'm limited to single phase 110V power in a one car garage that already
        >> has some equipment.
        >>
        >> With that in mind I've been eyeballing these Grizzly machines
        >>
        >> http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-x-21-Mill-Drill/G0619 because of the
        >> automatic tapping
        >> http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Mill-Drill/G1006 for the larger
        >> size.
        >>
        >> Any thoughts on these (or any other machine) would be greatly
        >> appreciated.
        >>
        >>
        >> Chuck
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • ceb_fangler
        ... community ... machine you ... What machine you ... knows you well ... read as ... books plus a huge ... to face ... one in AZ. ... I ll check out the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, rgsparber@... wrote:
          >
          > Chuck,
          >
          > One bit of good and common wisdom is to start by going to a
          community
          > college to better understand what you want to do and what class of
          machine you
          > really want. I did this many years ago and it helped me a lot.
          What machine you
          > buy is such a personal choice, I really doubt anyone on the web
          knows you well
          > enough to recommend your ideal machine.
          >
          > Another bit of great advice I received early in my journey is to
          read as
          > much as you can about your new hobby. There are many wonderful
          books plus a huge
          > amount of knowledge on the various yahoo group achieves.
          >
          > Furthermore, if you can join a local metal club, you will get face
          to face
          > help. I was in a metal club in IL for many years and now belong to
          one in AZ.
          > Both groups have been extremely generous with their knowledge.
          >
          > Rick
          > rgsparber@...
          > web site: http://rick.sparber.org


          I'll check out the community college when the semester starts up
          again. I've picked up several books on the topic they've definitely
          thrown gas on the fire so to speak :)

          There's a club http://www.cams-club.org/ that meets about n hour and
          a half drive from me. I plan to make it to a meeting and learn more
          about them.

          Nice website by the way. You have some great info there!





          --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, figNoggle <david@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > hi chuck-
          >
          > if space and budget allows, go for the larger mill from any of the
          vendors
          > ed mentioned. we still use our x2 for production parts under cnc
          (our own
          > conversion), but make use of the rf-45 clone from enco (when
          purchased on
          > sale w/free shipping) quite frequently.
          >
          > having said that, starting with an x2 is a great way to get started
          in
          > your garage. one advantage of working with a smaller machine is
          that it
          > challenges you to think about how to work around the work envelope
          > constraints.
          >
          > hope this helps!
          > david

          Well I've had several people recommend the X3 or RF45 machines if I
          had ANY thoughts at all of working larger projects. My budget is
          $3000, MAXIMUM but I certainly wouldn't complain if I spend less. LoL!


          Chuck
        • bob
          ... machine you ... machine you ... knows you well ... read as ... plus a huge ... to face ... one in AZ. ... Rick, What metal club in Illinois did you
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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            --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, rgsparber@... wrote:
            >
            > Chuck,
            >
            > One bit of good and common wisdom is to start by going to a community
            > college to better understand what you want to do and what class of
            machine you
            > really want. I did this many years ago and it helped me a lot. What
            machine you
            > buy is such a personal choice, I really doubt anyone on the web
            knows you well
            > enough to recommend your ideal machine.
            >
            > Another bit of great advice I received early in my journey is to
            read as
            > much as you can about your new hobby. There are many wonderful books
            plus a huge
            > amount of knowledge on the various yahoo group achieves.
            >
            > Furthermore, if you can join a local metal club, you will get face
            to face
            > help. I was in a metal club in IL for many years and now belong to
            one in AZ.
            > Both groups have been extremely generous with their knowledge.
            >
            > Rick
            > rgsparber@...
            > web site: http://rick.sparber.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
            > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
            >
            Rick, What metal club in Illinois did you belong to? The only one I've
            been able to find is in the far northern suburbs of Chicago. I live
            100 mi. south of there. Thanks, Bob M.
          • rgsparber@aol.com
            Chuck, Thanks for the kind words on my web site. Documenting what I have learned is part of my hobby. As for reading, my favorite set of books is the Bedside
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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              Chuck,

              Thanks for the kind words on my web site. Documenting what I have learned is
              part of my hobby.

              As for reading, my favorite set of books is the Bedside Readers series from
              Guy Lautard. I re-read them often. Lindsay sells lots of books but some have
              very dated information. For the same money you can get more modern books.
              This is especially true for casting.

              Rick
              rgsparber@...
              web site: http://rick.sparber.org



              **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
              (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
            • ceb_fangler
              ... learned is ... series from ... some have ... books. ... I LOVE Lindsay Books! I ve been ordering from them for a while and built a foundry based on the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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                --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, rgsparber@... wrote:
                >
                > Chuck,
                >
                > Thanks for the kind words on my web site. Documenting what I have
                learned is
                > part of my hobby.
                >
                > As for reading, my favorite set of books is the Bedside Readers
                series from
                > Guy Lautard. I re-read them often. Lindsay sells lots of books but
                some have
                > very dated information. For the same money you can get more modern
                books.
                > This is especially true for casting.
                >
                > Rick
                > rgsparber@...
                > web site: http://rick.sparber.org


                I LOVE Lindsay Books! I've been ordering from them for a while and
                built a foundry based on the Gingery books, and later built a propane
                foundry as well.. I have all three of the Lautard MBR's. #3 is open
                on the coffee table right now! Can't wait for #4 LoL!

                I also have the southbend lathe booklets, practical turning, and a
                few others. I used to have a 7x12 minilathe and muddled through a few
                small simple parts on it. Unfortunately it's gone now but it will be
                replaced one of these days.


                Chuck
              • kben77
                Hi, I looked at all of them a year ago when I bought mine. I was considering the X3 but ended up going bigger with the RF45 from www.penntoolco.com. However,
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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                  Hi,

                  I looked at all of them a year ago when I bought mine. I was
                  considering the X3 but ended up going bigger with the RF45 from
                  www.penntoolco.com.

                  However, I just got the 2008 Grizzly catalog an on page 577 they have
                  an RF45 with power z axis and power x axis (G0484). It also comes with
                  a cast iron stand for "the introductory price of $1,795." it says it
                  is new for 2008 and it must be, because it is not listed in the online
                  cat, yet. Shipping weight is 944 lbs, so it is a solid machine. Also,
                  it states S&H at $169 anywhere in the lower 48.

                  If I was buying again I would buy that hands down. I am outfitting
                  mine with power feeds for x and z now and it is going to cost $500, at
                  least.

                  My $0.02,
                  Kevin

                  > Chuck,
                  >
                  > Here are some links:
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=325-5184&PMPXNO=5820408&PARTPG=INLMK32
                  > http://www.lathemaster.com/HEAVYDUTYMILLINGMACHINE%207045FG.htm
                  > http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=4493
                  >
                  http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/14840/nm/Geared_Head_Mill_Drill_Machine_w_Dovetail_Column
                  >
                  > Good luck.
                  >
                  > Ed
                • ekdadlec
                  Hi Kevin, How do you like your Penn Tools RF-45? That is the one I want to get in the next few months. I like the fact that the Y travel is 9 . Most of the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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                    Hi Kevin,

                    How do you like your Penn Tools RF-45? That is the one I want to get
                    in the next few months. I like the fact that the 'Y' travel is 9".
                    Most of the other RF-45 clones have a 7.5 - 8" 'Y' travel.
                    The new Grizzly mill is a good deal if you can live with the smaller
                    work envelope. I like all the power feeds on it.

                    Ed

                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "kben77" <kben77@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > I looked at all of them a year ago when I bought mine. I was
                    > considering the X3 but ended up going bigger with the RF45 from
                    > www.penntoolco.com.
                    >
                    > However, I just got the 2008 Grizzly catalog an on page 577 they have
                    > an RF45 with power z axis and power x axis (G0484). It also comes with
                    > a cast iron stand for "the introductory price of $1,795." it says it
                    > is new for 2008 and it must be, because it is not listed in the online
                    > cat, yet. Shipping weight is 944 lbs, so it is a solid machine. Also,
                    > it states S&H at $169 anywhere in the lower 48.
                    >
                    > If I was buying again I would buy that hands down. I am outfitting
                    > mine with power feeds for x and z now and it is going to cost $500, at
                    > least.
                    >
                    > My $0.02,
                    > Kevin
                  • kben77
                    Hi Ed, I like it a lot ! I actually got a 2 HP motor when I think it is listed as 1 Hp or 1.5 Hp. If you buy one try and get a discount. I bought $600 worth
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 1, 2008
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                      Hi Ed,

                      I like it a lot ! I actually got a 2 HP motor when I think it is
                      listed as 1 Hp or 1.5 Hp. If you buy one try and get a discount. I
                      bought $600 worth of tooling and they sold me the mill for $1250. So,
                      they definitely have room to wiggle on price.

                      Thanks for reminding me about the Y-travel, that is why I bought it
                      from PennToolCo. My mill came in good condition. I went to the
                      http://www.industrialhobbies.com/ website and under the mill tips
                      followed the sections for casting cleanup and wash down

                      I am new to all this and that site has a lot of good tips for cleaning
                      the mill and tramming the head, etc...

                      I am now in the market for x and z power feeds and a DRO for the x and
                      y axis. The IH website above references an ASONG-235 for the x axis.
                      They are on Ebay for about $180. PennToolCo has an x powerfeed listed
                      for $275. I will probably get a 2 axis DRO from www.cdcotools.com or
                      one from www.meisterdro.com.

                      Also, I have cut some pretty heavy duty mystery steel with it and have
                      not had any problems. :)

                      Regards,
                      Kevin

                      > Hi Kevin,
                      >
                      > How do you like your Penn Tools RF-45? That is the one I want to get
                      > in the next few months. I like the fact that the 'Y' travel is 9".
                      > Most of the other RF-45 clones have a 7.5 - 8" 'Y' travel.
                      > The new Grizzly mill is a good deal if you can live with the smaller
                      > work envelope. I like all the power feeds on it.
                    • Bill Pace
                      Kevin, have you researched out the mounting of the power feeds? You seem to be doing a lot of good research and may already be aware of the different-ness
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                        Kevin, have you researched out the mounting of the power feeds? You
                        seem to be doing a lot of good research and may already be aware of
                        the "different-ness" of mounting a PF on these types of mills. The
                        "Bridgeport type" PF's, which are almost exclusively shown on ebay,
                        (like the one you mentioned) will NOT do a bolt-up on your mill. They
                        can be adapted, but is a fairly involved process.

                        There is a PF being offered now for the X axis on this type mill that
                        is supposed to be a bolt-on, mounts on the left side of the table,
                        looks totally different from the "Bridgeport" and runs some $50-100
                        more. Have also read of a couple guys saying the left side mount was
                        awkward .... and seems it would be to me also---being a rightie?

                        I think there are a couple pix/write-ups in the files/photo sections
                        on adapting these units to a RF-31 ... which looks to be the same as
                        the 45.


                        --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "kben77" <kben77@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Ed,
                        >
                        > I like it a lot ! I actually got a 2 HP motor when I think it is
                        > listed as 1 Hp or 1.5 Hp. If you buy one try and get a discount. I
                        > bought $600 worth of tooling and they sold me the mill for $1250. So,
                        > they definitely have room to wiggle on price.
                        >
                        > Thanks for reminding me about the Y-travel, that is why I bought it
                        > from PennToolCo. My mill came in good condition. I went to the
                        > http://www.industrialhobbies.com/ website and under the mill tips
                        > followed the sections for casting cleanup and wash down
                        >
                        > I am new to all this and that site has a lot of good tips for cleaning
                        > the mill and tramming the head, etc...
                        >
                        > I am now in the market for x and z power feeds and a DRO for the x and
                        > y axis. The IH website above references an ASONG-235 for the x axis.
                        > They are on Ebay for about $180. PennToolCo has an x powerfeed listed
                        > for $275. I will probably get a 2 axis DRO from www.cdcotools.com or
                        > one from www.meisterdro.com.
                        >
                        > Also, I have cut some pretty heavy duty mystery steel with it and have
                        > not had any problems. :)
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Kevin
                        >
                        > > Hi Kevin,
                        > >
                        > > How do you like your Penn Tools RF-45? That is the one I want to get
                        > > in the next few months. I like the fact that the 'Y' travel is 9".
                        > > Most of the other RF-45 clones have a 7.5 - 8" 'Y' travel.
                        > > The new Grizzly mill is a good deal if you can live with the smaller
                        > > work envelope. I like all the power feeds on it.
                        >
                      • kben77
                        Hi Bill, as you point out there is not much info on mounting the power feeds. The www.IndustrialHobbies.com website had a write up about mounting an ASONG
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                          Hi Bill,
                          as you point out there is not much info on mounting the power feeds.
                          The www.IndustrialHobbies.com website had a write up about mounting
                          an ASONG AS-235 on their RF45. I just figured out the unit comes from
                          www.lathemaster.com. The listed price at Lathemaster is $249.
                          So, it is probably a good deal if it is a straight bolt on.

                          Also, I am a lefty so it will actually be more convenient for me if it
                          is on the left !!!

                          I might just put a 3/8" power drill on the Z for cranking it up and
                          down. I saw a website where a guy mounted a cheap drill on the Z for
                          this purpose.

                          Thanks for the tip on the file section. I will check it out.

                          Regards,
                          Kevin


                          >
                          > Kevin, have you researched out the mounting of the power feeds? You
                          > seem to be doing a lot of good research and may already be aware of
                          > the "different-ness" of mounting a PF on these types of mills. The
                          > "Bridgeport type" PF's, which are almost exclusively shown on ebay,
                          > (like the one you mentioned) will NOT do a bolt-up on your mill. They
                          > can be adapted, but is a fairly involved process.
                          >
                          > There is a PF being offered now for the X axis on this type mill that
                          > is supposed to be a bolt-on, mounts on the left side of the table,
                          > looks totally different from the "Bridgeport" and runs some $50-100
                          > more. Have also read of a couple guys saying the left side mount was
                          > awkward .... and seems it would be to me also---being a rightie?
                          >
                          > I think there are a couple pix/write-ups in the files/photo sections
                          > on adapting these units to a RF-31 ... which looks to be the same as
                          > the 45.
                          >
                        • mikaelc
                          I just got my new Grizzly catalog, and yep, I d have to agree with that. Power feed on the X-axis, along with power feed for the head (Z-axis), geared power
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                          • Druid Noibn
                            Hi Miker, The new G0484 is a re-packaged G0519, a well-received machine. I would prefer the 3-ph motor as I plan to use a VFD, but the package is appealing
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Miker,
                               
                              The new G0484 is a re-packaged G0519, a well-received machine.  I would prefer the 3-ph motor as I plan to use a VFD, but the "package" is appealing and Grizzly has a good reputation.     
                               
                              Well, I'll let all know how the G0484 looks - I have one in-transit to me, a belated Christmas present, the wife will be surprised when this 80" tall crate arrives in our driveway.
                               
                              Take care,
                              DBN   

                              mikaelc <mikaelc@...> wrote:
                                          I just got my new Grizzly catalog, and yep, I’d have to agree with that. Power feed on the X-axis, along with power feed for the head (Z-axis), geared power head, single-phase motor – had I known Grizz was going to offer this, I’d have saved my money two years ago instead of buying my Rockwell. The Grizz has a bigger table, more powerful motor, and set up for coolant use. Ah well …..
                                          Miker
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:mill_ drill@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf Of kben77
                              Sent:
                              Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:17 PM
                              To: mill_drill@yahoogro ups.com
                              Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Machine selection for a newbie
                              Hi,

                              I looked at all of them a year ago when I bought mine. I was
                              considering the X3 but ended up going bigger with the RF45 from
                              www.penntoolco. com.

                              However, I just got the 2008 Grizzly catalog an on page 577 they have
                              an RF45 with power z axis and power x axis (G0484). It also comes with
                              a cast iron stand for "the introductory price of $1,795." it says it
                              is new for 2008 and it must be, because it is not listed in the online
                              cat, yet. Shipping weight is 944 lbs, so it is a solid machine. Also,
                              it states S&H at $169 anywhere in the lower 48.

                              If I was buying again I would buy that hands down. I am outfitting
                              mine with power feeds for x and z now and it is going to cost $500, at
                              least.

                              My $0.02,
                              Kevin

                               


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                            • Jerry Kimberlin
                              ... Why would anyone actualy want a single phase motor on a lathe or milling machine. You can t hang a VFD on a single phase motor, thus giving away a lot of
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                                mikaelc wrote:
                                >
                                > I just got my new Grizzly catalog, and yep, I’d have to agree with
                                > that. Power feed on the X-axis, along with power feed for the head
                                > (Z-axis), geared power head, *_single-phase motor_* – had I known
                                > Grizz was going to offer this, I’d have saved my money two years ago
                                > instead of buying my Rockwell. The Grizz has a bigger table, more
                                > powerful motor, and set up for coolant use. Ah well …
                                >

                                Why would anyone actualy want a single phase motor on a lathe or milling
                                machine. You can't hang a VFD on a single phase motor, thus giving away
                                a lot of speed flexibility. A VFD just makes things so very much easier.
                                One reason I got my G0519 was for the 3-P motor. Nobody else had one at
                                the time.

                                JerryK
                              • Druid Noibn
                                Hi Jerry, Like you, I also wish a 3-ph motor, but it appears that most do not, hence the 1-ph motor offers. Also note the offers for 1 to 3-ph converters. The
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                                  Hi Jerry,
                                   
                                  Like you, I also wish a 3-ph motor, but it appears that most do not, hence the 1-ph motor offers.  Also note the offers for 1 to 3-ph converters.  
                                   
                                  The plan is to replace the 1-ph motor, but I may need to make an adaptr as it is likely a metric sized item or find somone who wants to swap.
                                   
                                  Take care,
                                  DBN  

                                  Jerry Kimberlin <kimberln@...> wrote:
                                  mikaelc wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I just got my new Grizzly catalog, and yep, I’d have to agree with
                                  > that. Power feed on the X-axis, along with power feed for the head
                                  > (Z-axis), geared power head, *_single-phase motor_* – had I known
                                  > Grizz was going to offer this, I’d have saved my money two years ago
                                  > instead of buying my Rockwell. The Grizz has a bigger table, more
                                  > powerful motor, and set up for coolant use. Ah well …
                                  >

                                  Why would anyone actualy want a single phase motor on a lathe or milling
                                  machine. You can't hang a VFD on a single phase motor, thus giving away
                                  a lot of speed flexibility. A VFD just makes things so very much easier.
                                  One reason I got my G0519 was for the 3-P motor. Nobody else had one at
                                  the time.

                                  JerryK



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                                • ronpat
                                  ... wrong time of the year for me to jump in and buy one, every thing comes due in Jan. I tried to buy an IH machine last month and couldn t. I thing the new
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 2, 2008
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                                    --- In mill_drill@yahoogroups.com, "mikaelc" <mikaelc@...> wrote:
                                    >I just got a look at it; I bet they will sell a lot of those. Its
                                    wrong time of the year for me to jump in and buy one, every thing
                                    comes due in Jan. I tried to buy an IH machine last month and
                                    couldn't. I thing the new Grizzly will do just fine at a whole lot
                                    less money
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I just got my new Grizzly catalog, and yep, I'd have to
                                    > agree with that. Power feed on the X-axis, along with power feed
                                    for the
                                    > head (Z-axis), geared power head, single-phase motor - had I known
                                    Grizz
                                    > was going to offer this, I'd have saved my money two years ago
                                    instead
                                    > of buying my Rockwell. The Grizz has a bigger table, more powerful
                                    > motor, and set up for coolant use. Ah well ...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Miker
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:mill_drill@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf Of kben77
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 6:17 PM
                                    > To: mill_drill@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [mill_drill] Re: Machine selection for a newbie
                                    >
                                    > Hi,
                                    >
                                    > I looked at all of them a year ago when I bought mine. I was
                                    > considering the X3 but ended up going bigger with the RF45 from
                                    > www.penntoolco.com.
                                    >
                                    > However, I just got the 2008 Grizzly catalog an on page 577 they
                                    have
                                    > an RF45 with power z axis and power x axis (G0484). It also comes
                                    with
                                    > a cast iron stand for "the introductory price of $1,795." it says it
                                    > is new for 2008 and it must be, because it is not listed in the
                                    online
                                    > cat, yet. Shipping weight is 944 lbs, so it is a solid machine.
                                    Also,
                                    > it states S&H at $169 anywhere in the lower 48.
                                    >
                                    > If I was buying again I would buy that hands down. I am outfitting
                                    > mine with power feeds for x and z now and it is going to cost $500,
                                    at
                                    > least.
                                    >
                                    > My $0.02,
                                    > Kevin
                                    >
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