Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland

Expand Messages
  • Margaret Doyle
    You can google Army Barracks Ballsbridge Maggie the Dub On 18 Feb 2011, at 19:26, Donnacha wrote: Can you give more information on
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      You can google 'Army Barracks Ballsbridge'
      Maggie the Dub

      On 18 Feb 2011, at 19:26, Donnacha <ddgrant2004@...> wrote:

       

      Can you give more information on what you call the "Green Howards' Medal". British medals were not issued specifically regiments but on the basis of campaigns or on the basis of periods of service in a given theatre; beside these there are the gallantry medals such as the Vistoria Cross, the Military Medal &c and also a few medals that were issued for specific occassions such as the Coronation and Jubilee medals.
       
      If the Green Howards is specifically noted on the medal it is in all likelihood a regimental production for a sporting or other event or a private production commemorating some regimental circumstance.
       
      Can you describe it, or better still provide an image?
       
      Regards,
       
      Donnacha
       


      --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Margaret Doyle <johnmaggie11@...> wrote:

      From: Margaret Doyle <johnmaggie11@...>
      Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland
      To: "milgenire@yahoogroups.com" <milgenire@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "milgenire@yahoogroups.com" <milgenire@yahoogroups.com>
      Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM

       
      As Ireland was under British rule till 1922, he would have been able to join any regiment from Dublin. My gfather, James Goodwin was in 4 different regiments.
      Maggie the Dub

      On 18 Feb 2011, at 09:53, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

       

      Dia daoibh uilig / Hello!

      I posted a query here several months ago about my great-grandfather George Magee who had served in Burma in the 19th. century and I would like to thank again those who made the effort to try and help me at that time. 

      I have since learned a lot about him and I have now some Ireland-specific questions on which I would like to have your comments and suggestions.

      An uncle in America sent me recently photos of two medals belonging to George – one a Green Howards medal and the other an India General Service medal with a Burma 1885-7 clasp. On the advice of contributors to the “Victorian Wars" forum (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=4953) my uncle was able to read George's regiment details on the rim of the India medal; it reads: "1789 Cpl G. Magee, 2d Bn L’pool R."

      This information is repeated in a medal roll on Ancestry.comCorpral G Magee, Regt. No. 1789, 2nd Battalion The Kings Liverpool Regt. awarded the Indian General Sevice Medal with 'Burma 1885-87' clasp. According to the medal roll he was invalided.

      The details on the Green Howards medal show that it dates from after 1875. In any case, my ggfather would have been only 15 at that time, having been born in Dublin in approx. 1860. 

      Going by the information given on the "Army Service Numbers" website, it looks at though George joined the Liverpool regiment in the summer of 1886. He was injured in Burma, lost his left arm and was invalided out of the army in, I guess, 1887. In January 1888 he married in Tullamore, and gave "army pensioner" as his occupation.

      I am intrigued at to why my ggfather had both a Green Howards and a Liverpool Regiment medal. Did he enlist first in the Green Howards, leave and then join the Liverpool Regiment? Were there any special links between the Green Howards and the Liverpool Regiment? 

      The Liverpool Regiment were stationed in Ireland (but I do not know where exactly) from 1873 to 1876 and in 1877 were sent to the East Indies. The Green Howards were stationed in Ireland between 1881 and 1885. Would anyone know if either regiment was ever stationed in Tullamore, since it seems that that is where George went after being invalided out of the army?

      Could George have joined either regiment in Dublin or would he have needed to go to England to do so? At that time what was the minimum length of time a man had to serve when “he took the King’s shilling”?

      Are there any Irish sources which I could consult which might shed some light on the question?
      Thank you in advance for any information you might be able to give me!
      Eamann

      PS My ggfather enlisted again in the Army in 1915, aged 55 as he was and despite the loss of his left arm, and served as a drill inspector. He was living in Belfast at the time. Would a man in his position have wanted to enlist again in his old regiment, the Liverpool Regiment, and would that have been feasible in Belfast? Or would he have to opt for a local regiment like the Royal Irish Fusiliers? In 1917 he was transferred to the Labour Corps. I have a photo of him dating from 1918 in the company of Royal Irish Fusiliers soldiers, but the badge on his cap is different from theirs, he then being in the Labour Corps.

    • Éamann Ó Ruairc
      Hi Donnacha, The reverse side of the medal is blank and there is nothing around the rim. I’m taking up John’s advice and I am going to contact the Green
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Donnacha,

        The reverse side of the medal is blank and there is nothing around the rim.

        I’m taking up John’s advice and I am going to contact the Green Howards Museum.

        Slan,

        Éamann

        Le 19 févr. 2011 à 08:14, Donnacha a écrit :

         

        Hi  Éamann .
        Do you have an image of the obverse of the medal and is George Magee name inscribed on it?
         
        If there is no direct identification of him on the medal and there is no other evidence it is quite possible that he merely came across this possibly as a keepsake from a friend or in one of many other circumstances.
         
        Regards,
         
        Donnacha 

        --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

        From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
        Subject: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
        To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:22 PM

        A Dhonncha, a chara, and other readers,

        I didn’t know what you said in your reply about medals.

        Here’s the Green Howards medal that my ggfather had. In case you cannot make out the details, it has the Princess of Wales' cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and is topped by her coronet. In the middle of this you have the date "1875" and beneath "XIX". The scroll at the bottom says "The Green Howards A.P.W.O. (= Alexandra, Princess of Wales Own) Yorkshire Regt.”

        The Green Howards was raised in 1751 as the 19th Regt of Foot and, according to Wikipedia, in 1875 Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales presented new colours to the 1st Battalion at Sheffield and consented to the regiment bearing her name, thus becoming the 19th (1st Yorkshire North Riding - Princess of Wales's Own) Regiment of Foot.The regiment adopted a cap badge consisting of the Princess's cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and topped by her coronet. The “XIX” is probably a reference to the old 19th foot Regt.

        Looking forward to hearing your comments,

        Beannachtai,

        Éamann 





      • Éamann Ó Ruairc
        Thanks! Éamann ... Thanks! Éamann Le 19 févr. 2011 à 10:39, Margaret Doyle a écrit : You can google Army Barracks Ballsbridge Maggie the Dub On 18 Feb
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks!

          Éamann

          Le 19 févr. 2011 à 10:39, Margaret Doyle a écrit :

           

          You can google 'Army Barracks Ballsbridge'
          Maggie the Dub

          On 18 Feb 2011, at 19:26, Donnacha <ddgrant2004@...> wrote:

           

          Can you give more information on what you call the "Green Howards' Medal". British medals were not issued specifically regiments but on the basis of campaigns or on the basis of periods of service in a given theatre; beside these there are the gallantry medals such as the Vistoria Cross, the Military Medal &c and also a few medals that were issued for specific occassions such as the Coronation and Jubilee medals.
           
          If the Green Howards is specifically noted on the medal it is in all likelihood a regimental production for a sporting or other event or a private production commemorating some regimental circumstance.
           
          Can you describe it, or better still provide an image?
           
          Regards,
           
          Donnacha
           


          --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Margaret Doyle <johnmaggie11@...> wrote:

          From: Margaret Doyle <johnmaggie11@...>
          Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland
          To: "milgenire@yahoogroups.com" <milgenire@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "milgenire@yahoogroups.com" <milgenire@yahoogroups.com>
          Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM

           
          As Ireland was under British rule till 1922, he would have been able to join any regiment from Dublin. My gfather, James Goodwin was in 4 different regiments.
          Maggie the Dub

          On 18 Feb 2011, at 09:53, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

           

          Dia daoibh uilig / Hello!

          I posted a query here several months ago about my great-grandfather George Magee who had served in Burma in the 19th. century and I would like to thank again those who made the effort to try and help me at that time. 

          I have since learned a lot about him and I have now some Ireland-specific questions on which I would like to have your comments and suggestions.

          An uncle in America sent me recently photos of two medals belonging to George – one a Green Howards medal and the other an India General Service medal with a Burma 1885-7 clasp. On the advice of contributors to the “Victorian Wars" forum (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=4953) my uncle was able to read George's regiment details on the rim of the India medal; it reads: "1789 Cpl G. Magee, 2d Bn L’pool R."

          This information is repeated in a medal roll on Ancestry.comCorpral G Magee, Regt. No. 1789, 2nd Battalion The Kings Liverpool Regt. awarded the Indian General Sevice Medal with 'Burma 1885-87' clasp. According to the medal roll he was invalided.

          The details on the Green Howards medal show that it dates from after 1875. In any case, my ggfather would have been only 15 at that time, having been born in Dublin in approx. 1860. 

          Going by the information given on the "Army Service Numbers" website, it looks at though George joined the Liverpool regiment in the summer of 1886. He was injured in Burma, lost his left arm and was invalided out of the army in, I guess, 1887. In January 1888 he married in Tullamore, and gave "army pensioner" as his occupation.

          I am intrigued at to why my ggfather had both a Green Howards and a Liverpool Regiment medal. Did he enlist first in the Green Howards, leave and then join the Liverpool Regiment? Were there any special links between the Green Howards and the Liverpool Regiment? 

          The Liverpool Regiment were stationed in Ireland (but I do not know where exactly) from 1873 to 1876 and in 1877 were sent to the East Indies. The Green Howards were stationed in Ireland between 1881 and 1885. Would anyone know if either regiment was ever stationed in Tullamore, since it seems that that is where George went after being invalided out of the army?

          Could George have joined either regiment in Dublin or would he have needed to go to England to do so? At that time what was the minimum length of time a man had to serve when “he took the King’s shilling”?

          Are there any Irish sources which I could consult which might shed some light on the question?
          Thank you in advance for any information you might be able to give me!
          Eamann

          PS My ggfather enlisted again in the Army in 1915, aged 55 as he was and despite the loss of his left arm, and served as a drill inspector. He was living in Belfast at the time. Would a man in his position have wanted to enlist again in his old regiment, the Liverpool Regiment, and would that have been feasible in Belfast? Or would he have to opt for a local regiment like the Royal Irish Fusiliers? In 1917 he was transferred to the Labour Corps. I have a photo of him dating from 1918 in the company of Royal Irish Fusiliers soldiers, but the badge on his cap is different from theirs, he then being in the Labour Corps.




        • Éamann Ó Ruairc
          Donnacha, My correspondent on Victorian Wars says: As for the Green Howards posting in Ireland, my info comes from the Regiments Website,now sadly defunct,
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Donnacha,

            My correspondent on Victorian Wars says: "As for the Green Howards posting in Ireland, my info comes from the Regiments Website,now sadly defunct, but i have still got in frozen form. Now without wanting to cause offence to Milgenire i will quote the following, 2nd Batt,19th Foot, 1881 Ireland 1881 07-01, T.P.O,W.Own (Cardwell Reforms?). 1881 Belfast, 1882 Curragh, 1885 Buttevant ?1886 Aldershot.”

            Éamann 

            Le 19 févr. 2011 à 00:01, Donnacha a écrit :

             

            Hi  Éamann,
            To expand on what has been said, strictly speaking, it would be possible for a man to enlist at any of the Depots in his area. I don't know which one(s) were in Dublin but the enlisted man would complete basic training at the Depot and on completion would either be assigned a regiment or be assigned to one of his choosing. Thus there was no necessity to for a man to attend a the depot of the regiment that he wished to serve with. e.g. In 1887 my grandfather enlisted at the Hounslow Depot of the Middlesex Regiment and on completion of basic training chose to serve with the Shropshire Regiment.
             
            Kitzmiller, In Search of The "Forlorn Hope" puts The King's Regiment (Liverpool) in the following locations in Ireland for the dates you mention:
             
            Clonmel 1873, 1875
            Curragh 1873, 1875
            Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) 1873
            Fermoy 1875
            Queenstown (now Cobh) 1876
             
            Kingstown (a harbour town) is about 8 miles from the centre of Dublin and was connected by rail at that time.
             
            Kitzmiller doesn't show the Green Howards as being in Ireland in the years you mention. Kitzmiller can be innacurate in details but it is unlikely that any error would carry over the several years. Can you say where your information on this comes from?
             
            The Army Enlistment Act of 1870 reduced the normal period of service from 21 years to 12 years.
             
            Regards,
             
            Donnacha

            --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

            From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
            Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland
            To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:02 PM

             
            Thanks, that’s interesting to know.

            Éamann

            Le 18 févr. 2011 à 16:03, Margaret Doyle a écrit :

             

            As Ireland was under British rule till 1922, he would have been able to join any regiment from Dublin. My gfather, James Goodwin was in 4 different regiments.
            Maggie the Dub

            On 18 Feb 2011, at 09:53, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

             

            Dia daoibh uilig / Hello!

            I posted a query here several months ago about my great-grandfather George Magee who had served in Burma in the 19th. century and I would like to thank again those who made the effort to try and help me at that time. 

            I have since learned a lot about him and I have now some Ireland-specific questions on which I would like to have your comments and suggestions.

            An uncle in America sent me recently photos of two medals belonging to George – one a Green Howards medal and the other an India General Service medal with a Burma 1885-7 clasp. On the advice of contributors to the “Victorian Wars" forum (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=4953) my uncle was able to read George's regiment details on the rim of the India medal; it reads: "1789 Cpl G. Magee, 2d Bn L’pool R."

            This information is repeated in a medal roll on Ancestry.comCorpral G Magee, Regt. No. 1789, 2nd Battalion The Kings Liverpool Regt. awarded the Indian General Sevice Medal with 'Burma 1885-87' clasp. According to the medal roll he was invalided.

            The details on the Green Howards medal show that it dates from after 1875. In any case, my ggfather would have been only 15 at that time, having been born in Dublin in approx. 1860. 

            Going by the information given on the "Army Service Numbers" website, it looks at though George joined the Liverpool regiment in the summer of 1886. He was injured in Burma, lost his left arm and was invalided out of the army in, I guess, 1887. In January 1888 he married in Tullamore, and gave "army pensioner" as his occupation.

            I am intrigued at to why my ggfather had both a Green Howards and a Liverpool Regiment medal. Did he enlist first in the Green Howards, leave and then join the Liverpool Regiment? Were there any special links between the Green Howards and the Liverpool Regiment? 

            The Liverpool Regiment were stationed in Ireland (but I do not know where exactly) from 1873 to 1876 and in 1877 were sent to the East Indies. The Green Howards were stationed in Ireland between 1881 and 1885. Would anyone know if either regiment was ever stationed in Tullamore, since it seems that that is where George went after being invalided out of the army?

            Could George have joined either regiment in Dublin or would he have needed to go to England to do so? At that time what was the minimum length of time a man had to serve when “he took the King’s shilling”?

            Are there any Irish sources which I could consult which might shed some light on the question?
            Thank you in advance for any information you might be able to give me!
            Eamann

            PS My ggfather enlisted again in the Army in 1915, aged 55 as he was and despite the loss of his left arm, and served as a drill inspector. He was living in Belfast at the time. Would a man in his position have wanted to enlist again in his old regiment, the Liverpool Regiment, and would that have been feasible in Belfast? Or would he have to opt for a local regiment like the Royal Irish Fusiliers? In 1917 he was transferred to the Labour Corps. I have a photo of him dating from 1918 in the company of Royal Irish Fusiliers soldiers, but the badge on his cap is different from theirs, he then being in the Labour Corps.





          • Donnacha
            It wouldn t surprise me then if this was a blank. These are often held in stock by the supplier against requirements of mainly sporting events. It is then an
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              It wouldn't surprise me then if this was a blank. These are often held in stock by the supplier against requirements of mainly sporting events. It is then an easy business to add the appropriate inscription. Reduces costs also.
               
              Regards,
               
              Donnacha

              --- On Sat, 2/19/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

              From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
              Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
              To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 11:04 AM

               
              Hi Donnacha,

              The reverse side of the medal is blank and there is nothing around the rim.

              I’m taking up John’s advice and I am going to contact the Green Howards Museum.

              Slan,

              Éamann

              Le 19 févr. 2011 à 08:14, Donnacha a écrit :

               
              Hi  Éamann .
              Do you have an image of the obverse of the medal and is George Magee name inscribed on it?
               
              If there is no direct identification of him on the medal and there is no other evidence it is quite possible that he merely came across this possibly as a keepsake from a friend or in one of many other circumstances.
               
              Regards,
               
              Donnacha 

              --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

              From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
              Subject: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
              To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:22 PM

              A Dhonncha, a chara, and other readers,

              I didn’t know what you said in your reply about medals.

              Here’s the Green Howards medal that my ggfather had. In case you cannot make out the details, it has the Princess of Wales' cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and is topped by her coronet. In the middle of this you have the date "1875" and beneath "XIX". The scroll at the bottom says "The Green Howards A.P.W.O. (= Alexandra, Princess of Wales Own) Yorkshire Regt.”

              The Green Howards was raised in 1751 as the 19th Regt of Foot and, according to Wikipedia, in 1875 Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales presented new colours to the 1st Battalion at Sheffield and consented to the regiment bearing her name, thus becoming the 19th (1st Yorkshire North Riding - Princess of Wales's Own) Regiment of Foot.The regiment adopted a cap badge consisting of the Princess's cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and topped by her coronet. The “XIX” is probably a reference to the old 19th foot Regt.

              Looking forward to hearing your comments,

              Beannachtai,

              Éamann 






            • Donnacha
              No offense; it is after all Kitzmiller s business. I would always defer to the Regiments site since there are many people looking over the shoulder in its
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 19, 2011
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                No offense; it is after all Kitzmiller's business. I would always defer to the Regiments site since there are many people looking over the shoulder in its compilation and from several sources. But it's still an unusual extent of this omission in Kitzmiller. At first I thought it was an effect of the 1881 reform since K uses the regimental numbering for his ordering. But I see he picks up The P.O.W. Own (Yorkshire Regiment) again in the section for 1898-WWI.
                 
                The Regiments.org archived site is at this link for those interested:
                 
                 
                Unfortunately, today(?) it is refusing to unveil the secrets of the Numeric listing and there is nothing on locations in the Alphabetic listing; unfortunate since I would like to know what the source for this placement is. Still, all in good time, and if the medal pans out to be of only a personal connection no harm done.
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Donnacha

                --- On Sat, 2/19/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland
                To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 12:21 PM

                 
                Donnacha,

                My correspondent on Victorian Wars says: "As for the Green Howards posting in Ireland, my info comes from the Regiments Website,now sadly defunct, but i have still got in frozen form. Now without wanting to cause offence to Milgenire i will quote the following, 2nd Batt,19th Foot, 1881 Ireland 1881 07-01, T.P.O,W.Own (Cardwell Reforms?). 1881 Belfast, 1882 Curragh, 1885 Buttevant ?1886 Aldershot.”

                Éamann 

                Le 19 févr. 2011 à 00:01, Donnacha a écrit :

                 

                An uncle in America sent me recently photos of two medals belonging to George – one a Green Howards medal and the other an India General Service medal with a Burma 1885-7 clasp. On the advice of contributors to the “Victorian Wars" forum (http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=4953) my uncle was able to read George's regiment details on the rim of the India medal; it reads: "1789 Cpl G. Magee, 2d Bn L’pool R."

                This information is repeated in a medal roll on Ancestry.comCorpral G Magee, Regt. No. 1789, 2nd Battalion The Kings Liverpool Regt. awarded the Indian General Sevice Medal with 'Burma 1885-87' clasp. According to the medal roll he was invalided.

                The details on the Green Howards medal show that it dates from after 1875. In any case, my ggfather would have been only 15 at that time, having been born in Dublin in approx. 1860. 

                Going by the information given on the "Army Service Numbers" website, it looks at though George joined the Liverpool regiment in the summer of 1886. He was injured in Burma, lost his left arm and was invalided out of the army in, I guess, 1887. In January 1888 he married in Tullamore, and gave "army pensioner" as his occupation.

                I am intrigued at to why my ggfather had both a Green Howards and a Liverpool Regiment medal. Did he enlist first in the Green Howards, leave and then join the Liverpool Regiment? Were there any special links between the Green Howards and the Liverpool Regiment? 

                The Liverpool Regiment were stationed in Ireland (but I do not know where exactly) from 1873 to 1876 and in 1877 were sent to the East Indies. The Green Howards were stationed in Ireland between 1881 and 1885. Would anyone know if either regiment was ever stationed in Tullamore, since it seems that that is where George went after being invalided out of the army?

                Could George have joined either regiment in Dublin or would he have needed to go to England to do so? At that time what was the minimum length of time a man had to serve when “he took the King’s shilling”?

                Are there any Irish sources which I could consult which might shed some light on the question?
                Thank you in advance for any information you might be able to give me!
                Eamann

                PS My ggfather enlisted again in the Army in 1915, aged 55 as he was and despite the loss of his left arm, and served as a drill inspector. He was living in Belfast at the time. Would a man in his position have wanted to enlist again in his old regiment, the Liverpool Regiment, and would that have been feasible in Belfast? Or would he have to opt for a local regiment like the Royal Irish Fusiliers? In 1917 he was transferred to the Labour Corps. I have a photo of him dating from 1918 in the company of Royal Irish Fusiliers soldiers, but the badge on his cap is different from theirs, he then being in the Labour Corps.



                Hi  Éamann,
                To expand on what has been said, strictly speaking, it would be possible for a man to enlist at any of the Depots in his area. I don't know which one(s) were in Dublin but the enlisted man would complete basic training at the Depot and on completion would either be assigned a regiment or be assigned to one of his choosing. Thus there was no necessity to for a man to attend a the depot of the regiment that he wished to serve with. e.g. In 1887 my grandfather enlisted at the Hounslow Depot of the Middlesex Regiment and on completion of basic training chose to serve with the Shropshire Regiment.
                 
                Kitzmiller, In Search of The "Forlorn Hope" puts The King's Regiment (Liverpool) in the following locations in Ireland for the dates you mention:
                 
                Clonmel 1873, 1875
                Curragh 1873, 1875
                Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) 1873
                Fermoy 1875
                Queenstown (now Cobh) 1876
                 
                Kingstown (a harbour town) is about 8 miles from the centre of Dublin and was connected by rail at that time.
                 
                Kitzmiller doesn't show the Green Howards as being in Ireland in the years you mention. Kitzmiller can be innacurate in details but it is unlikely that any error would carry over the several years. Can you say where your information on this comes from?
                 
                The Army Enlistment Act of 1870 reduced the normal period of service from 21 years to 12 years.
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Donnacha

                --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards & Liverpool Regiment in Ireland
                To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:02 PM

                 
                Thanks, that’s interesting to know.

                Éamann

                Le 18 févr. 2011 à 16:03, Margaret Doyle a écrit :

                 

                As Ireland was under British rule till 1922, he would have been able to join any regiment from Dublin. My gfather, James Goodwin was in 4 different regiments.
                Maggie the Dub

                On 18 Feb 2011, at 09:53, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                 

                Dia daoibh uilig / Hello!

                I posted a query here several months ago about my great-grandfather George Magee who had served in Burma in the 19th. century and I would like to thank again those who made the effort to try and help me at that time. 

                I have since learned a lot about him and I have now some Ireland-specific questions on which I would like to have your comments and suggestions.




              • Éamann Ó Ruairc
                Thank you, Donnacha for that additional information! You’re a very knowledgeable man and we are blessed to have you on this mailing list! On the “Victorian
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thank you, Donnacha for that additional information! You’re a very knowledgeable man and we are blessed to have you on this mailing list!

                  On the “Victorian Wars” forum two contributors, including one specialist in medals, have also said that the medal was a (semi)-unofficial one, sometimes used for sporting events.

                  It is now clear that the medal is not firm evidence that my ggf served in the Green Howards. However, it is no coincidence that he possessed the medal. The only way to know for sure is to consult the Green Howards records, hence my question: do you know if Kew has individual soldier records for the Green Howards for the period 1874-1886? 

                  I am going on the assumption at present that my ggf enlisted in the Green Howards in 1874 when he was about 15. He liked army life and when his 12 year stint came to an end in 1886 he signed up again in the Liverpool Regiment. Likewise in 1915, despite his age and disability, he enlisted again.

                  As regards the Kew records: do I remember you saying in a previous mail that FMP is in the process of digitalising them?

                  Which prompts me to say that despite the firm proof I now have that my ggf was invalided out of the Liverpool Regiment in 1887, I cannot find any trace of him in the Chelsea Pensioners records on FMP. (On another thread Johnny White pointed out to me that the WWI pension file of my grandfather, Michael Magee, was on Ancestry. A friend downloaded the eight images for me last night to my great excitement and satisfaction! It confirms what I knew already and provides new facts that I did not know about.)

                  Beannachtai,

                  Éamann

                  Le 20 févr. 2011 à 01:46, Donnacha a écrit :

                   

                  It wouldn't surprise me then if this was a blank. These are often held in stock by the supplier against requirements of mainly sporting events. It is then an easy business to add the appropriate inscription. Reduces costs also.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Donnacha

                  --- On Sat, 2/19/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                  From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                  Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
                  To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 11:04 AM

                   
                  Hi Donnacha,

                  The reverse side of the medal is blank and there is nothing around the rim.

                  I’m taking up John’s advice and I am going to contact the Green Howards Museum.

                  Slan,

                  Éamann

                  Le 19 févr. 2011 à 08:14, Donnacha a écrit :

                   
                  Hi  Éamann .
                  Do you have an image of the obverse of the medal and is George Magee name inscribed on it?
                   
                  If there is no direct identification of him on the medal and there is no other evidence it is quite possible that he merely came across this possibly as a keepsake from a friend or in one of many other circumstances.
                   
                  Regards,
                   
                  Donnacha 

                  --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                  From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                  Subject: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
                  To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:22 PM

                  A Dhonncha, a chara, and other readers,

                  I didn’t know what you said in your reply about medals.

                  Here’s the Green Howards medal that my ggfather had. In case you cannot make out the details, it has the Princess of Wales' cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and is topped by her coronet. In the middle of this you have the date "1875" and beneath "XIX". The scroll at the bottom says "The Green Howards A.P.W.O. (= Alexandra, Princess of Wales Own) Yorkshire Regt.”

                  The Green Howards was raised in 1751 as the 19th Regt of Foot and, according to Wikipedia, in 1875 Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales presented new colours to the 1st Battalion at Sheffield and consented to the regiment bearing her name, thus becoming the 19th (1st Yorkshire North Riding - Princess of Wales's Own) Regiment of Foot.The regiment adopted a cap badge consisting of the Princess's cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and topped by her coronet. The “XIX” is probably a reference to the old 19th foot Regt.

                  Looking forward to hearing your comments,

                  Beannachtai,

                  Éamann 







                • Donnacha
                  Hi Éamann, I m afraid that the knowledgeable one on the NA records is yourself these days since you have so much personal experience of hunting them down in
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 20, 2011
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Éamann,
                    I'm afraid that the knowledgeable one on the NA records is yourself these days since you have so much personal experience of hunting them down in the new outsourcing climate under which they are being scattered to the four quarters, all of course with the object of "improving service".
                     
                    Your best bet is probably to access WO16. "From 1878 to 1898, all muster rolls and pay lists are in WO 16 ." If you look at the following you will see that there are records for the Green Howards under the designation the 19th Foot; both 1st and 2nd Bns are shown:
                     
                    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=19th&txtfirstdate=&txtlastdate=&txtrestriction=wo16&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=38&image1.y=16

                    I wouldn't take it as read that the 'coverung dates' signify the records are just for this span. e.g. A similar return for WO97 will give a covering date that is simply the date of the latest record, obviously with WO97 this is most likely to be the discharge date.
                     
                    Problem is of course getting access. There is a note here attached to the description of the series indication that it is part of the Regiments Indexing Project and is currently in use. So I guess it's limbo again for that one.
                     
                     
                    As for WO97, over the years I've seen many accounts of gaps in that series quite apart from the notorious 'misfiled' papers. My grandfathers record failed to show in a search of WO97 although I did locate him in one muster taken in Hong Kong in 1894.
                     
                    Happy Hunting,
                     
                    Donnacha
                     
                    --- On Sun, 2/20/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                    From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                    Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
                    To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 10:36 AM

                     
                    Thank you, Donnacha for that additional information! You’re a very knowledgeable man and we are blessed to have you on this mailing list!

                    On the “Victorian Wars” forum two contributors, including one specialist in medals, have also said that the medal was a (semi)-unofficial one, sometimes used for sporting events.

                    It is now clear that the medal is not firm evidence that my ggf served in the Green Howards. However, it is no coincidence that he possessed the medal. The only way to know for sure is to consult the Green Howards records, hence my question: do you know if Kew has individual soldier records for the Green Howards for the period 1874-1886? 

                    I am going on the assumption at present that my ggf enlisted in the Green Howards in 1874 when he was about 15. He liked army life and when his 12 year stint came to an end in 1886 he signed up again in the Liverpool Regiment. Likewise in 1915, despite his age and disability, he enlisted again.

                    As regards the Kew records: do I remember you saying in a previous mail that FMP is in the process of digitalising them?

                    Which prompts me to say that despite the firm proof I now have that my ggf was invalided out of the Liverpool Regiment in 1887, I cannot find any trace of him in the Chelsea Pensioners records on FMP. (On another thread Johnny White pointed out to me that the WWI pension file of my grandfather, Michael Magee, was on Ancestry. A friend downloaded the eight images for me last night to my great excitement and satisfaction! It confirms what I knew already and provides new facts that I did not know about.)

                    Beannachtai,

                    Éamann

                    Le 20 févr. 2011 à 01:46, Donnacha a écrit :

                     
                    It wouldn't surprise me then if this was a blank. These are often held in stock by the supplier against requirements of mainly sporting events. It is then an easy business to add the appropriate inscription. Reduces costs also.
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Donnacha

                    --- On Sat, 2/19/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                    From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                    Subject: Re: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
                    To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 11:04 AM

                     
                    Hi Donnacha,

                    The reverse side of the medal is blank and there is nothing around the rim.

                    I’m taking up John’s advice and I am going to contact the Green Howards Museum.

                    Slan,

                    Éamann

                    Le 19 févr. 2011 à 08:14, Donnacha a écrit :

                     
                    Hi  Éamann .
                    Do you have an image of the obverse of the medal and is George Magee name inscribed on it?
                     
                    If there is no direct identification of him on the medal and there is no other evidence it is quite possible that he merely came across this possibly as a keepsake from a friend or in one of many other circumstances.
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Donnacha 

                    --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...> wrote:

                    From: Éamann Ó Ruairc <eamann@...>
                    Subject: [milgenire] Green Howards medal
                    To: milgenire@yahoogroups.com
                    Received: Friday, February 18, 2011, 4:22 PM

                    A Dhonncha, a chara, and other readers,

                    I didn’t know what you said in your reply about medals.

                    Here’s the Green Howards medal that my ggfather had. In case you cannot make out the details, it has the Princess of Wales' cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and is topped by her coronet. In the middle of this you have the date "1875" and beneath "XIX". The scroll at the bottom says "The Green Howards A.P.W.O. (= Alexandra, Princess of Wales Own) Yorkshire Regt.”

                    The Green Howards was raised in 1751 as the 19th Regt of Foot and, according to Wikipedia, in 1875 Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales presented new colours to the 1st Battalion at Sheffield and consented to the regiment bearing her name, thus becoming the 19th (1st Yorkshire North Riding - Princess of Wales's Own) Regiment of Foot.The regiment adopted a cap badge consisting of the Princess's cypher "A" combined with the Dannebrog or Danish cross and topped by her coronet. The “XIX” is probably a reference to the old 19th foot Regt.

                    Looking forward to hearing your comments,

                    Beannachtai,

                    Éamann 








                  • Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.