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Geocaching, Forest Service and YOU!

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  • jamie rich
    Hello all, The following is a list of the people I have emailed to in regards to the issue of placing Geocaches in the Huron-Manistee National Forest. I am
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 4, 2002
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      Hello all,

      The following is a list of the people I have emailed to in regards to the issue of placing Geocaches in the Huron-Manistee National Forest. I am urging you to also write to these people. At this point, I think that we need to keep our emails friendly and inquisitive. Lets ask them for information as regards to Geocaching (they DON'T have any policy regarding it by the way), and kill them with kindness. Since the squeaky wheel get oiled first, lets all squeak together!

      Senator Debbie Stabenow http://stabenow.senate.gov/contact.htm

      National Forest Service mailroom_wo@...

      Region 9 Public Affairs Officer Sherry Wagner swagner/r9@... swagner/r9@...

      Huron Manistee Public Affairs Officer Tracy Tophooven ttophooven/r9_huronmanistee@...

      Local Manistee Computer Officer Rebecca Rudat rrudat@... rrudat@...

      These are the people I have written to today, I will fw: along any replies I get, please do the same with your replies! Let�s squeak together!

      Jamie Rich

      Team Sandrich

      "To me, everything is mathematical" - Rene Descartes

       




       



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    • jamie rich
      Red Alert, I just got back an automated response from Sen Stabenow. If you don t put your name AND postal address (to show that you are from the state of MI)
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 4, 2002
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        Red Alert, I just got back an automated response from Sen Stabenow. If you don't put your name AND postal address (to show that you are from the state of MI) you will have wasted your time! So- make sure to please include your name and snail mail address at the top of your email to her!




        "To me, everything is mathematical" - Rene Descartes

        From: "jamie rich"
        Reply-To: migo@yahoogroups.com
        To: migo@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [migo] Geocaching, Forest Service and YOU!
        Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:00:21 -0400


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      • rustypayne
        Let s not go too far and stir up officials that have never even heard of geocaching and don t need to get involved yet. If you check the geocaching forums you
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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          Let's not go too far and stir up officials that have never even
          heard of geocaching and don't need to get involved yet. If you check
          the geocaching forums you will find that in most cases you will get
          a "no" simply because they don't know and don't want to take
          responsibility for saying yes. Contacting too many people could end
          up with getting geocaching banned in areas that had not even thought
          about it. On a national level the Forest Service does NOT have a
          policy against geocaching in general areas like the NPS does. They
          do however have areas where it is not allowed.

          A little research reveals that "Federal Park" cache was placed in a
          designated wilderness area north of Ludington and it also looks on
          the map like the "Field of Ferns" cache was also in an area of the
          forest different from the rest, at least it was colored differently
          on my map from the surrounding forest. Wilderness areas are
          absolutely off-limits and actually I remember seeing the one cache
          when it was posted and thinking I should email the owner to inform
          him but I never acted on it.

          Bottom line is that without further information it is totally
          possible that this is isolated to specific areas of the forest off-
          limits to anything but leave-no-trace. Official contact should be
          limited to those local officials directly responsible so that no
          toes are stepped on that would perhaps taint alliances we may need
          in the future. It should start as simple fact finding to determine
          the official scope of the actions in the Manistee National Forest
          specifically.

          Rusty...
        • abxguy02
          ... I was told that it would be a sweep of entire forestlands for caches. Officers were extremely upset about the sheer number of caches on forestlands. I am
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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            > Bottom line is that without further information it is totally
            > possible that this is isolated to specific areas of the forest off-
            > limits to anything but leave-no-trace. Official contact should be
            > limited to those local officials directly responsible so that no
            > toes are stepped on that would perhaps taint alliances we may need
            > in the future. It should start as simple fact finding to determine
            > the official scope of the actions in the Manistee National Forest
            > specifically.

            I was told that it would be a sweep of entire forestlands for caches.
            Officers were extremely upset about the sheer number of caches on
            forestlands. I am trying to find out more details if they are going
            to remove all, or only those in specific wilderness areas, etc.

            ABXGuy
          • rustypayne
            Here is the most current thread from geocaching.com on the subject: http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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              Here is the most current thread from geocaching.com on the subject:
              http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?
              a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=9250961364&r=9780944364#9780944364
              titled "Forest Service to Ban Geocaching".

              Here is Jeremy's position "Sorry but banning is BS unless I hear
              from an official first. Hearsay don't cut it. - Jeremy Irish
              5/21/2002"

              Rusty...
            • Frank Rens
              ... Federal Park is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It s in the middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area.. And Field of Ferns
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                At 10:37 AM +0000 6/5/02, rustypayne wrote:
                >A little research reveals that "Federal Park" cache was placed in a
                >designated wilderness area north of Ludington and it also looks on
                >the map like the "Field of Ferns" cache was also in an area of the
                >forest different from the rest, at least it was colored differently
                >on my map from the surrounding forest. Wilderness areas are
                >absolutely off-limits and actually I remember seeing the one cache
                >when it was posted and thinking I should email the owner to inform
                >him but I never acted on it.

                "Federal Park" is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It's in the
                middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area..
                And "Field of Ferns" is just in a large clearing in the woods which
                is frequented by campers, hunters, and fishermen. Nothing special
                about either one other than they are closest to the Manistee Ranger
                Station.
              • Zuckerruebensirup
                I second Rusty s suggestion. I d hate to see too much attention focused on geocaching in Michigan before we ve had a chance to establish a history of good
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                  I second Rusty's suggestion. I'd hate to see too much attention
                  focused on geocaching in Michigan before we've had a chance to
                  establish a history of good stewardship and an organized and self-
                  disciplined approach to placing, maintaining, and seeking caches.

                  In order to 'arm' ourselves for similar incidents that are sure to
                  come up in the future, I'd love to see us all make a concentrated
                  effort to start practicing (and documenting) Cache In/Trash Out
                  habits on a regular basis. One of the features on the new MiGO
                  website that's under development, is a page for sharing pictures and
                  stories of Cache In/Trash Out efforts. I'd like to see us come up
                  with a contest, or at least a way to recognize those who go the extra
                  mile to clean up the areas in which they cache.

                  The more examples we can present of 'giving back' to the parks who
                  welcome our activity, the harder it will be for officials to justify
                  turning us away.

                  Just my 2 cents,
                  Zuck


                  --- In migo@y..., "rustypayne" <migo@h...> wrote:

                  > Let's not go too far and stir up officials that have never even
                  > heard of geocaching and don't need to get involved yet. If you
                  check
                  > the geocaching forums you will find that in most cases you will get
                  > a "no" simply because they don't know and don't want to take
                  > responsibility for saying yes. Contacting too many people could end
                  > up with getting geocaching banned in areas that had not even
                  thought
                  > about it.
                • jamie rich
                  OK, I got the hint & won t stir up too much stuff right now! But I do agree with the below statements of being able to demonstrate the we are good guys for
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                    OK, I got the hint & won't stir up too much stuff right now! But I do agree with the below statements of being able to demonstrate the we are "good guys" for the environment. Plus we need to find out if those caches were/are actually on forbidden (wilderness) areas. If they are on areas used by other recreationists, we have the start of making our friendly position to the authorities. I do NOT want this to tourn adversarial or into "us vs. them". We'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

                    Jamie

                    From: "Zuckerruebensirup"
                    Reply-To: migo@yahoogroups.com
                    To: migo@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [migo] How do we protect our right to geocache in Michigan?
                    Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:13:30 -0000
                    I second Rusty's suggestion. I'd hate to see too much attention
                    focused on geocaching in Michigan before we've had a chance to
                    establish a history of good stewardship and an organized and self-
                    disciplined approach to placing, maintaining, and seeking caches.
                    In order to 'arm' ourselves for similar incidents that are sure to
                    come up in the future, I'd love to see us all make a concentrated
                    effort to start practicing (and documenting) Cache In/Trash Out
                    habits on a regular basis. One of the features on the new MiGO
                    website that's under development, is a page for sharing pictures and
                    stories of Cache In/Trash Out efforts. I'd like to see us come up
                    with a contest, or at least a way to recognize those who go the extra
                    mile to clean up the areas in which they cache.
                    The more examples we can present of 'giving back' to the parks who
                    welcome our activity, the harder it will be for officials to justify
                    turning us away.
                    Just my 2 cents,
                    Zuck
                    --- In migo@y..., "rustypayne" wrote:
                    > Let's not go too far and stir up officials that have never even
                    > heard of geocaching and don't need to get involved yet. If you
                    check
                    > the geocaching forums you will find that in most cases you will get
                    > a "no" simply because they don't know and don't want to take
                    > responsibility for saying yes. Contacting too many people could end
                    > up with getting geocaching banned in areas that had not even
                    thought
                    > about it.


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                  • rustypayne
                    ... Ranger ... We were up in that area camping not long before the cache was placed but haven t been back there since so I don t have first hand knowledge of
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                      > "Federal Park" is definitely NOT in a wilderness area. It's in the
                      > middle of the Day Use area of the Lake Michigan Recreation Area..
                      > And "Field of Ferns" is just in a large clearing in the woods which
                      > is frequented by campers, hunters, and fishermen. Nothing special
                      > about either one other than they are closest to the Manistee
                      Ranger
                      > Station.

                      We were up in that area camping not long before the cache was placed
                      but haven't been back there since so I don't have first hand
                      knowledge of exactly where it is. From the map it looked to me like
                      it was in the Nordhouse Dunes, which is a designated wilderness area.
                      I didn't mean to come across as being absolutey certain it was in
                      that area, only that it appeared that way on the maps I was using.

                      Rusty...
                    • rustypayne
                      Everyone in this forum understands that the negative impact of geocaching on the environment is between little and none. We enjoy and have a reverence for
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                        Everyone in this forum understands that the negative impact of
                        geocaching on the environment is between little and none. We enjoy
                        and have a reverence for nature or we probably wouldn't be out doing
                        this in the first place. Like Zuck says, we have a cache in/trash out
                        policy and I think most of us practice in on some level most of the
                        time. We SHOULD highlight our positive contributions.

                        My point is that in this forum you are "preaching to the choir", we
                        need to get a outsiders to understand the benifits of geocaching and
                        understand the sport. Only when they truly understand it can they
                        make an informed decision about it. If we force the issue too soon it
                        is much less likely to be in our favor. My understanding is that our
                        website will be online real soon, it will be a great place to
                        highlight the things we do and educate others about us.

                        ABXGuy is trying to contact the officials in the Manistee Forest to
                        get clarification of their intentions. Hopefully he can get a
                        response soon and post it here. I need to do maintenance on my NF
                        cache this weekend and I'm still undecided on removing and archiving
                        it.

                        Rusty...
                      • Mike Wunderlich
                        All, Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site, (it s not a myth!!) :) We already have two things that demonstrate our comradery and
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                          All,

                          Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site, (it's
                          not a myth!!) :) We already have two things that demonstrate our comradery
                          and the fact that we're not 100% a bunch of mavericks out to wreck the world
                          ;) Those are write-ups for the MiGO Picnic get together and the TC Geocache
                          Convergence event. If anyone has anything else they would like to
                          contribute (personal outing stories, group trips, service activities, etc.)
                          PLEASE feel free to write it up and submit it to me for posting :)
                          Preferred format is MS Word Doc or HTML. Feel free to include as many
                          photos as you want. We have ample storage for images.

                          The site will also contain a brief description of what MiGO is, why it
                          exists, etc. This information may help to calm fears that park personnell
                          are managing a one vs. many situation in regards to Geocaching in Michigan.
                          Hopefully it will serve to illustrate to them that help is available from
                          our organization in getting out the word on their guidelines for caching and
                          the finding of caches and cachers who are not operating within those
                          guidelines.

                          Anyway, I think suggestions for gathering more info and discussing it prior
                          to addressing concerns to the world is good advice.

                          -Mike [trippy1976]
                        • Tim Cahoon
                          Sorry to ask a dumb question but.... what s the URL?????
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                            Sorry to ask a dumb question but....

                            what's the URL?????

                            Mike Wunderlich wrote:
                            >
                            > All,
                            >
                            > Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site,
                          • Frank Rens
                            ... We visited our cache today and added our phone number to the first page of the log book. Thought it might make it easier to get in contact with us in case
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                              At 2:03 PM +0000 6/5/02, rustypayne wrote:
                              >I need to do maintenance on my NF
                              >cache this weekend and I'm still undecided on removing and archiving
                              >it.

                              We visited our cache today and added our phone number to the first
                              page of the log book. Thought it might make it easier to get in
                              contact with us in case it gets removed. I'd like the camera back.

                              Frank
                            • Mike Wunderlich
                              There s only a place holder there now. By preview I meant verbal. However the URL is and will be www.mi-geocaching.org There s a small page up there that s
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 5, 2002
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                                There's only a place holder there now. By preview I meant verbal. However
                                the URL is and will be
                                www.mi-geocaching.org

                                There's a small page up there that's pretty out of date. That'll be the
                                look and feel but there is a LOT more going onto the real site. I just
                                need a moment to sit down and finish up some loose ends and upload it.
                                Thanks for your interest!! Once it goes up, feel free to give me
                                feedback. It'll evolve fairly rapidly I hope.

                                Mike

                                > Sorry to ask a dumb question but....
                                >
                                > what's the URL?????
                                >
                                > Mike Wunderlich wrote:
                                >>
                                >> All,
                                >>
                                >> Just to give you a preview of coming attractions with the web site,
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > migo-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Angela Wieske
                                Greetings all cachers, Help me out here. I am confused as to which parks can not have caches. National Park Service parks in Michigan are the following...
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 6, 2002
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                                  Greetings all cachers,

                                  Help me out here. I am confused as to which parks can not have caches.
                                  National Park Service parks in Michigan are the following...
                                  Father Marquette National Memorial
                                  Isle Royal National Park
                                  Keweenaw National Historical Park
                                  Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore
                                  Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore

                                  (Got this information from this site
                                  http://165.83.219.77/parksearch/state/state.cfm?statevar=mi Which is the
                                  National Parks Services web site)

                                  Are these the only locations caches can not be put in Michigan as per this
                                  discussion?

                                  Looking at the map on the above mentioned link, it really doesn't seem to be
                                  that much of an area. I know it must be heart breaking for those who have
                                  productive and beautiful caches palced in these areas but there are a lot of
                                  other great spots in Michigan to place caches. Granted, I personally would
                                  love to find a cache at Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore (Love that spot on
                                  this planet, almost cried with awe 1st time I saw it), but have no problem
                                  finding one nearby and having the cache recommend visiting the Pictured
                                  Rocks while I am in the area.

                                  And Zuckerruebensirup (thank goodness for cut an paste, whew, that's a name
                                  and a half) I agree with the cache in/trash out effort. We always do this
                                  (even did at the Traverse City Convergence) and consider it to be an
                                  important part of the find. Not only did we take out a fabulous 1" tall
                                  soccer troll, we also took out 2 grocery bags full of trash. :-P Makes us
                                  feel like did our part.

                                  Just trying to clarify things in my mind. Thanks and Cache on!

                                  Angela
                                  The-Wild-N-Wooly-(Mrs.)-Wieske

                                  P.S. By the By... If you do a search on the above mentioned web site using
                                  the word geocaching you will find 2 service communications that mention
                                  geocaching. Read them in chronological order and you can see somewhat where
                                  NPS is coming from. Not that I completely agree with their banning of
                                  Geocaching, but can see that their first recorded experience with it was
                                  rather negative.

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