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Re: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]

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  • Timothy J Fagan
    Ok - I m officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL. From: Bryan Pope Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:20 AM To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 5 4:03 PM
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      Ok - I'm officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL.
       
       

      Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 11:20 AM
      Subject: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]


      Forwarded message:

      >
      > And thusly were the wise words spake
      by Christian Liendo
      > >
      > >
      title="http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/">http://news. bostonherald. com/business/ technology/ general/view/ 2008_08_04_ Designers_ on_quest_ to_build_ _12_computer/
      > >
      >
      > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already
      been
      > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced
      > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had.
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Bryan
      >
      >

    • Herb Johnson
      ... A quick read of the article is informative. There is already a $12 clone of something like the Apple II, made in India. The MIT wiz-kids say in the
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 6 10:05 AM
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        "Timothy J Fagan" <tfagan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ok - I'm officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL.
        >
        Brian posted:

        > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been
        > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced
        > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had.

        A quick read of the article is informative. There is already a $12
        "clone" of something like the Apple II, made in India. The MIT
        wiz-kids say in the article they want to move past 1970's technology,
        and make something that can access the Internet.

        So, in effect they want to undercut a local/national computer
        producer, and provide a computer that presumes all the infrastructure
        is there to support INternet Web services. wonderful (yawn).

        Other people have already produced single-chip C64 devices. Those were
        those little joystick widgets that played classic Commodore video
        games. Jeri told THAT story herself at the 2007 VCF-East show.

        In my rash opinion, a $12 Internet computer - if possible - would
        require much more than that in supporting infrastructure. The
        so-called OLPC "$100" computer became more like $200, for all the
        things it needed to do, and to be, to support themselves in a network
        of networks, in a village with no electrical power. Chips may be cheap
        to free, but plastics and chemicals and circuit boards and video
        screens DON'T scale down, they have costs per square inch and a
        one-inch video screen won't cut it.

        Besides, here in a vintage computer dicussion, why would anyone
        support a 21st century "upgrade" design, anyway? ;) LEt's produce a
        $12 Z80 machine - oops, too late, it's called a Sinclair ZX80....

        Herb Johnson
        8 bits is enough
        ok, maybe 12...
        retrotechnology.com
      • Christian Liendo
        The Sinclair ZX81 is $200, I can t find a Sinclair ZX80 http://www.zebrasystems.com/zebrasystems/zx81/index.html They could make a $100 computer (not a
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 6 10:26 AM
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          The Sinclair ZX81 is $200, I can't find a Sinclair ZX80

          http://www.zebrasystems.com/zebrasystems/zx81/index.html

          They could make a $100 computer (not a laptop), problem is it wont make money
          Thats the real issue.

          --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@...> wrote:
          From: Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@...>
          Subject: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]
          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 1:05 PM

          "Timothy J Fagan" <tfagan@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok - I'm officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL.
          >
          Brian posted:

          > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been
          > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced
          > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had.

          A quick read of the article is informative. There is already a $12
          "clone" of something like the Apple II, made in India. The MIT
          wiz-kids say in the article they want to move past 1970's technology,
          and make something that can access the Internet.

          So, in effect they want to undercut a local/national computer
          producer, and provide a computer that presumes all the infrastructure
          is there to support INternet Web services. wonderful (yawn).

          Other people have already produced single-chip C64 devices. Those were
          those little joystick widgets that played classic Commodore video
          games. Jeri told THAT story herself at the 2007 VCF-East show.

          In my rash opinion, a $12 Internet computer - if possible - would
          require much more than that in supporting infrastructure. The
          so-called OLPC "$100" computer became more like $200, for all the
          things it needed to do, and to be, to support themselves in a network
          of networks, in a village with no electrical power. Chips may be cheap
          to free, but plastics and chemicals and circuit boards and video
          screens DON'T scale down, they have costs per square inch and a
          one-inch video screen won't cut it.

          Besides, here in a vintage computer dicussion, why would anyone
          support a 21st century "upgrade" design, anyway? ;) LEt's produce a
          $12 Z80 machine - oops, too late, it's called a Sinclair ZX80....

          Herb Johnson
          8 bits is enough
          ok, maybe 12...
          retrotechnology. com


        • Timothy J Fagan
          Herb, I m with Christian - if you have a source for Sinclair ZX-80s for $12, please do share!!! Christian - if you are looking for a ZX-81 much cheaper than
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 6 3:48 PM
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            Herb,
             
            I'm with Christian - if you have a source for Sinclair ZX-80s for $12, please do share!!! Smile emoticon
             
            Christian - if you are looking for a ZX-81 much cheaper than Zebra's ($200?!?!?! Yikes!), let me know. I have a few extra.
             
            --Timster--
             
             

            Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:26 PM
            Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]

            The Sinclair ZX81 is $200, I can't find a Sinclair ZX80

            http://www.zebrasys tems.com/ zebrasystems/ zx81/index. html

            They could make a $100 computer (not a laptop), problem is it wont make money
            Thats the real issue.

            --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@ comcast.net> wrote:
            From: Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@ comcast.net>
            Subject: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]
            To: midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 1:05 PM

            "Timothy J Fagan" <tfagan@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ok - I'm officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL.
            >
            Brian posted:

            > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been
            > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced
            > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had.

            A quick read of the article is informative. There is already a $12
            "clone" of something like the Apple II, made in India. The MIT
            wiz-kids say in the article they want to move past 1970's technology,
            and make something that can access the Internet.

            So, in effect they want to undercut a local/national computer
            producer, and provide a computer that presumes all the infrastructure
            is there to support INternet Web services. wonderful (yawn).

            Other people have already produced single-chip C64 devices. Those were
            those little joystick widgets that played classic Commodore video
            games. Jeri told THAT story herself at the 2007 VCF-East show.

            In my rash opinion, a $12 Internet computer - if possible - would
            require much more than that in supporting infrastructure. The
            so-called OLPC "$100" computer became more like $200, for all the
            things it needed to do, and to be, to support themselves in a network
            of networks, in a village with no electrical power. Chips may be cheap
            to free, but plastics and chemicals and circuit boards and video
            screens DON'T scale down, they have costs per square inch and a
            one-inch video screen won't cut it.

            Besides, here in a vintage computer dicussion, why would anyone
            support a 21st century "upgrade" design, anyway? ;) LEt's produce a
            $12 Z80 machine - oops, too late, it's called a Sinclair ZX80....

            Herb Johnson
            8 bits is enough
            ok, maybe 12...
            retrotechnology. com


          • Christian Liendo
            I have my Timex Sinclair that my dad bought me when I was 10yo.. I also have the 16k brick/heat sink. ... From: Timothy J Fagan Subject:
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 6 7:26 PM
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              I have my Timex Sinclair that my dad bought me when I was 10yo.. I also have the 16k brick/heat sink.



              --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Timothy J Fagan <tfagan@...> wrote:
              From: Timothy J Fagan <tfagan@...>
              Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]
              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 6:48 PM

              Herb,
               
              I'm with Christian - if you have a source for Sinclair ZX-80s for $12, please do share!!! Smile emoticon
               
              Christian - if you are looking for a ZX-81 much cheaper than Zebra's ($200?!?!?! Yikes!), let me know. I have a few extra.
               
              --Timster--
               
               

              Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 1:26 PM
              Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]

              The Sinclair ZX81 is $200, I can't find a Sinclair ZX80

              http://www.zebrasys tems.com/ zebrasystems/ zx81/index. html

              They could make a $100 computer (not a laptop), problem is it wont make money
              Thats the real issue.

              --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@ comcast.net> wrote:
              From: Herb Johnson <herbjohnson@ comcast.net>
              Subject: [midatlanticretro] [Fwd: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone (fwd)]
              To: midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 1:05 PM

              "Timothy J Fagan" <tfagan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok - I'm officially sick. I want one of these things! LOL.
              >
              Brian posted:

              > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been
              > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced
              > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had.

              A quick read of the article is informative. There is already a $12
              "clone" of something like the Apple II, made in India. The MIT
              wiz-kids say in the article they want to move past 1970's technology,
              and make something that can access the Internet.

              So, in effect they want to undercut a local/national computer
              producer, and provide a computer that presumes all the infrastructure
              is there to support INternet Web services. wonderful (yawn).

              Other people have already produced single-chip C64 devices. Those were
              those little joystick widgets that played classic Commodore video
              games. Jeri told THAT story herself at the 2007 VCF-East show.

              In my rash opinion, a $12 Internet computer - if possible - would
              require much more than that in supporting infrastructure. The
              so-called OLPC "$100" computer became more like $200, for all the
              things it needed to do, and to be, to support themselves in a network
              of networks, in a village with no electrical power. Chips may be cheap
              to free, but plastics and chemicals and circuit boards and video
              screens DON'T scale down, they have costs per square inch and a
              one-inch video screen won't cut it.

              Besides, here in a vintage computer dicussion, why would anyone
              support a 21st century "upgrade" design, anyway? ;) LEt's produce a
              $12 Z80 machine - oops, too late, it's called a Sinclair ZX80....

              Herb Johnson
              8 bits is enough
              ok, maybe 12...
              retrotechnology. com



            • Herb Johnson
              ... $12, please do share!!! OK fellows...let s focus...focus... My apologies, I meant the Timex Sinclair computers, whatever models which are cheap today. Ebay
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 7 2:38 PM
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                "Timothy J Fagan" <tfagan@...> wrote:
                >
                > Herb,
                >
                > I'm with Christian - if you have a source for Sinclair ZX-80s for
                $12, please do share!!!

                OK fellows...let's focus...focus...

                My apologies, I meant the Timex Sinclair computers, whatever models
                which are cheap today. Ebay tells me the T/S 1000's are going for
                $10-$20 and up, plus shipping. Close enough to make my point.

                The point being that a $12, or $20, or $30 computer is likely going to
                NOT have an included display, or very much of a keyboard, or offer
                much performance, or provide much networking capability. So, in fact,
                it's going to be very much like the Apple II or Sinclair computers of
                the 70's and early 80's. The features which would make them "21st
                century" are materials-costly and energy-intensive and will raise the
                price: just as the price of the produced OLPC machines was over $200,
                not the $100 target. One may as well use 1980's technology, period,
                and take advantage of software of that time.

                Again, that is apparently what that Indian company is doing. Now
                *that* is the computer I'd like to see more about. Let's see what Ms.
                Google can tell me...."india computer apple II $12" gives me:

                http://www.teleread.org/blog/2008/08/05/for-india-a-12-apple-ii-desktop/
                http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111759
                http://www.us2guntur.com/us2guntur/servlet/DisplayServ1?category_id=10017&subcatid=15&choice=ok


                ..and as usual, the press screws up the old-tech/new-tech story. But
                don't take MY word for it, like they say on Reading Rainbow
                (PBS)....If you don't want to follow the links, you can buy the Victor
                90 "Super 8 bit TV Game Graphics" system, a knockoff of the Nintendo
                NES or Famicom, for $23 plus shipping when ordered from an Indian Web
                site (us2guntur.com). I did not register to check for shipping to the
                USA, or if they DO ship to the USA.

                Hey, how many people wanna order this thing for $30-$40 each, guessing
                at shipping costs? Maybe pick them up at VCF East? Let me know.

                Ms. Google led me to a very slick and oh-so-21st-century Web site of
                that "design for development" group referenced in the article, which
                (my error) is only *visiting* MIT for a "design summit".

                http://design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/Problem+Definition?t=anon

                They say they "are exploring the possibility of using 8-bit computers
                as a platform for locally-relevant, effective educational software for
                middle income families, particularly in developing economies."

                Um, I'm only a old-guy retired engineer from Ohio. But, like, why
                don't they design an Internet cartridge for the Victor 90? Why should
                a bunch of international PhD computerists go toe-to-toe and compete
                with some NES knockoff producer (probably China? Malasia?) for
                building a "better" computer? And who will they GET to produce their
                better machine, and distribute it? The very same people they are
                competing with!

                But this "design4dev" Web site is a facinating read! They go on and on
                about this Victor/Nitendo machine. Is it legally right to clone a
                clone? Does Nintendo have a say, a legal issue? Can a game "teach"
                somebody something? "games as cognitive tools"! "how to hack a Nintendo".

                OMG! Let's see what they say about "the history of home computing":

                http://design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/History+of+Home+Computing

                "The TRS80 was the first computer for Daphne Koller, Stanford AI
                researcher, and MacArthur Genius grantee. NYT Article
                (http://oldcomputers.net/trs80pc1.html)

                "Pursuing the Next Level of Artificial Intelligence", NYT By JOHN
                MARKOFF, Published: May 3, 2008

                ..it's another great read of do-do, with a thesaurus-full of hot
                computer phrases: "creating a set of computational tools for
                artificial intelligence that can be used by scientists and engineers
                to do things like predict traffic jams, improve machine vision and
                understand the way cancer spreads. Ms. Koller's work, building on an
                18th-century theorem about probability..."

                Oh, yeah, probability was first discussed in the 1800's. That doesn't
                make shooting craps a PhD project.

                I'm afraid the rest of this description could have been used any time
                in the last, oh, *thirty years* to describe AI work. "She's on the
                bleeding edge of the leading edge" said one of her associates.
                Actually, that's a term from Adam Osborne - yeah, the Osborne computer
                guy - but he meant it as something to *avoid*. Oh, and her link to
                home computing history? The story says she used a TRS-80 when she was
                twelve. I guess the design4dev folks Googled "genius personal
                computer" and found that story.

                My friends, *this* is why it's important to get personal computing
                history *right*. Otherwise anyone looking to make a fast buck from
                some "new new thing" will use Google and justify their work on the
                basis of irrelevant fragments of past personal computing failures or
                successes. It doesn't hurt them to also say: "it's for the
                children....". The British have a good term for this kind of scam:
                "blind them with science".

                Herb Johnson
                still livin' in the 1970's
                retrotechnology.com
              • Christian Liendo
                I guess you saw my post on classiccmp Why I like the idea.. How many people would like to get a computer for their kid (younger than 18) but wont let them
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 7 3:02 PM
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                  I guess you saw my post on classiccmp

                  Why I like the idea..

                  How many people would like to get a computer for their kid (younger than 18) but wont let them touch theirs because they will know the kid will break it.

                  If there was a computer (real computer) for $25 that you can hook to a TV and it was full of educational apps and you can hook to a printer, would you buy it?

                  I know people who gave their old C64s to kids because they didnt want them touching their PCs and they could easily get software for it. Now it's a bit harder to get the C64s.



                • Stan Brewer
                  With all the porn, kid stalkers, and viruses out there, it would be good that the machine could not get on the internet! (My $.02 for Free) Stan
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 7 6:12 PM
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                    With all the porn, kid stalkers, and viruses out there, it would be good that the machine could not get on the internet!  (My $.02 for Free)

                                                  Stan

                    Christian Liendo wrote:

                    I guess you saw my post on classiccmp

                    Why I like the idea..

                    How many people would like to get a computer for their kid (younger than 18) but wont let them touch theirs because they will know the kid will break it.

                    If there was a computer (real computer) for $25 that you can hook to a TV and it was full of educational apps and you can hook to a printer, would you buy it?

                    I know people who gave their old C64s to kids because they didnt want them touching their PCs and they could easily get software for it. Now it's a bit harder to get the C64s.



                  • Bryan Pope
                    ... Actually, the C64 can already get directly on the internet (with its own IP address) and it is pretty much immune to the viruses out there... As for the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 7 6:30 PM
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                      Stan Brewer wrote:
                      > With all the porn, kid stalkers, and viruses out there, it would be
                      > good that the machine could not get on the internet! (My $.02 for Free)
                      Actually, the C64 can already get directly on the internet (with its own
                      IP address) and it is pretty much immune to the viruses out there...
                      As for the other two, they were already there long before the internet
                      came into being.

                      Cheers,

                      Bryan

                      >
                      > Stan
                      >
                      > Christian Liendo wrote:
                      >>
                      >> I guess you saw my post on classiccmp
                      >>
                      >> Why I like the idea..
                      >>
                      >> How many people would like to get a computer for their kid (younger
                      >> than 18) but wont let them touch theirs because they will know the
                      >> kid will break it.
                      >>
                      >> If there was a computer (real computer) for $25 that you can hook to
                      >> a TV and it was full of educational apps and you can hook to a
                      >> printer, would you buy it?
                      >>
                      >> I know people who gave their old C64s to kids because they didnt want
                      >> them touching their PCs and they could easily get software for it.
                      >> Now it's a bit harder to get the C64s.
                      >>
                      >>
                    • Stan Brewer
                      I was the DEC Systems Manager at a major manufacturer in S.C. when our Windows Servers were brought to their knees by a Virus. The Windows Systems Manger was
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 7 6:54 PM
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                        I was the DEC Systems Manager at a major manufacturer in S.C. when our Windows Servers were brought to their knees by a Virus.  The Windows Systems Manger was pulling his hair out.  I asked him if he had one of the infected files located.  He said, "Yes".  I asked him if he would e-mail it to me to my VMS account.  I will not repeat what he said.  : )

                                                               Stan

                        Bryan Pope wrote:

                        Stan Brewer wrote:
                        > With all the porn, kid stalkers, and viruses out there, it would be
                        > good that the machine could not get on the internet! (My $.02 for Free)
                        Actually, the C64 can already get directly on the internet (with its own
                        IP address) and it is pretty much immune to the viruses out there...
                        As for the other two, they were already there long before the internet
                        came into being.

                        Cheers,

                        Bryan

                        >
                        > Stan
                        >
                        > Christian Liendo wrote:
                        >>
                        >> I guess you saw my post on classiccmp
                        >>
                        >> Why I like the idea..
                        >>
                        >> How many people would like to get a computer for their kid (younger
                        >> than 18) but wont let them touch theirs because they will know the
                        >> kid will break it.
                        >>
                        >> If there was a computer (real computer) for $25 that you can hook to
                        >> a TV and it was full of educational apps and you can hook to a
                        >> printer, would you buy it?
                        >>
                        >> I know people who gave their old C64s to kids because they didnt want
                        >> them touching their PCs and they could easily get software for it.
                        >> Now it's a bit harder to get the C64s.
                        >>
                        >>

                      • mejeep_ferret
                        ... Wow, that s still 10% of their initial cost, not too bad compared, to, say, Commodore 64s :-) The joke s on me: I have one kinda new-in-box, and I ll bring
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 8 7:46 AM
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                          > My apologies, I meant the Timex Sinclair computers, whatever models
                          > which are cheap today. Ebay tells me the T/S 1000's are going for
                          > $10-$20 and up, plus shipping. Close enough to make my point.

                          Wow, that's still 10% of their initial cost, not too bad compared, to,
                          say, Commodore 64s :-)

                          The joke's on me: I have one kinda new-in-box, and I'll bring it to
                          VCF for my z80 exhibit. No, I'm not giving it away as a booby-prize.
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