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Re: what network for the PC jr?

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  • Jim Scheef
    Jeff, This is not Token Ring. Token Ring was announced during the time or the Cluster but TR would not ship for 2 years or more. As you surmise, it s not
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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      Jeff,

      This is not Token Ring. Token Ring was announced during the time or the Cluster but TR would not ship for 2 years or more. As you surmise, it's not Arcnet either. Nor is it Ethernet (with capital E). The IBM Cluster Program (its proper name - IBM did not call it a LAN) uses baseband signaling similar to Ethernet. The specs say it runs at 375K bps over 75Ohm coax like for cable TV but with BNC connectors like Ethernet. I'm hoping I can get short distances to work using regular 50Ohn cheapernet. Like the PCjr, the Cluster was intentionally hobbled to keep it out of businesses and in the classroom.

      At the same time IBM sold the IBM PC Network which they did refer to as a LAN. It used broadband signaling over 75Ohn coax. This network was much more complex but was the network where NetBIOS first saw light.

      This was the era when LANs were new and there were no standards. True Ethernet was XNet as defined by Xerox, Intel and Digital Equipment. The December, 1984, issue of BYTE Magazine has an excellent review of 24 different local area networks for the IBM PC. None of these would interoperate and only Novell offered versions of its software to operate over other vendor's hardware. I suspect this is what made them successful. As a side note, the early Novell server used a Motorola 68000 CPU.

      Local area networks were not really successful until the Intel 386 gave PCs more power and a flat memory model for the server operating system.

      Jim

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Jeff Jonas <jeffj@...>
      To: Jim Scheef <jscheef@...>
      Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 9:01:17 AM
      Subject: what network for the PC jr?

      I see your VCF entry is
          IBM Cluster Network
          Jim Scheef (New Milford, CT, United States)
          Play games on a diskless PCjr loading the games over the network
          from an XT server. The Cluster was IBM's solution
          for the computer classroom of the future.

      What network is that: token ring?
      I can't believe IBM would have used ethernet on the XT
      or Arcnet (not invented here!)

      -- jeff jonas
    • Ian King
      What do you mean by successful ? I saw IBM PC Network used in two different business for which I worked in the late 80s and early 90s; both used it primarily
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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        What do you mean by "successful"? I saw IBM PC Network used in two
        different business for which I worked in the late 80s and early 90s;
        both used it primarily for printer sharing. These were primarily 8088
        and 286-based computers. Admittedly, the overhead of the network
        limited what applications could be run successfully on the computers,
        especially in the small law office where I worked that was too cheap :-)
        to have a standalone computer for the print server. So the secretary who
        was stuck with the print server computer (always the one lowest on the
        totem pole) had a tough life....

        Given the limited demands on these environments, though, the IBM product
        did a credible job and allowed the sharing of what were very expensive
        laser printers among multiple workers. -- Ian

        On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 08:21 -0700, Jim Scheef wrote:
        > Jeff,
        >
        > This is not Token Ring. Token Ring was announced during the time or
        > the Cluster but TR would not ship for 2 years or more. As you surmise,
        > it's not Arcnet either. Nor is it Ethernet (with capital E). The IBM
        > Cluster Program (its proper name - IBM did not call it a LAN) uses
        > baseband signaling similar to Ethernet. The specs say it runs at 375K
        > bps over 75Ohm coax like for cable TV but with BNC connectors like
        > Ethernet. I'm hoping I can get short distances to work using regular
        > 50Ohn cheapernet. Like the PCjr, the Cluster was intentionally hobbled
        > to keep it out of businesses and in the classroom.
        >
        > At the same time IBM sold the IBM PC Network which they did refer to
        > as a LAN. It used broadband signaling over 75Ohn coax. This network
        > was much more complex but was the network where NetBIOS first saw
        > light.
        >
        > This was the era when LANs were new and there were no standards. True
        > Ethernet was XNet as defined by Xerox, Intel and Digital Equipment.
        > The December, 1984, issue of BYTE Magazine has an excellent review of
        > 24 different local area networks for the IBM PC. None of these would
        > interoperate and only Novell offered versions of its software to
        > operate over other vendor's hardware. I suspect this is what made them
        > successful. As a side note, the early Novell server used a Motorola
        > 68000 CPU.
        >
        > Local area networks were not really successful until the Intel 386
        > gave PCs more power and a flat memory model for the server operating
        > system.
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Jeff Jonas <jeffj@...>
        > To: Jim Scheef <jscheef@...>
        > Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 9:01:17 AM
        > Subject: what network for the PC jr?
        >
        > I see your VCF entry is
        > IBM Cluster Network
        > Jim Scheef (New Milford, CT, United States)
        > Play games on a diskless PCjr loading the games over the network
        > from an XT server. The Cluster was IBM's solution
        > for the computer classroom of the future.
        >
        > What network is that: token ring?
        > I can't believe IBM would have used ethernet on the XT
        > or Arcnet (not invented here!)
        >
        > -- jeff jonas
        >
        >
      • Jim Scheef
        Ian, You make my point. Couldn t have said it any better. Those companies were willing to make significant sacrifices to share expensive printers with
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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          Ian,

          You make my point. Couldn't have said it any better. Those companies were willing to make significant sacrifices to share expensive printers with essentially no other benefit. That doesn't sound like success to me. Until the very late 80's, LANs were esoteric and expensive. In about 1986 we sold our first LAN by using floppy-only desktop computers to save the cost of the hard drive.
          Back in about 1990 when General Foods finally installed some LANs, I had two sets of config.sys/autoexec.bat: one to use the network printer and the other to get work done - and this was on a 386! Of course DOS was a large part of the problem.

          Jeff, this thread is now on the MARCH list.

          Jim

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Ian King <iking@...>
          To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Jeff Jonas <jeffj@...>
          Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 12:18:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: what network for the PC jr?

          What do you mean by "successful"?  I saw IBM PC Network used in two
          different business for which I worked in the late 80s and early 90s;
          both used it primarily for printer sharing.  These were primarily 8088
          and 286-based computers.  Admittedly, the overhead of the network
          limited what applications could be run successfully on the computers,
          especially in the small law office where I worked that was too cheap :-)
          to have a standalone computer for the print server. So the secretary who
          was stuck with the print server computer (always the one lowest on the
          totem pole) had a tough life.... 

          Given the limited demands on these environments, though, the IBM product
          did a credible job and allowed the sharing of what were very expensive
          laser printers among multiple workers.  -- Ian

          On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 08:21 -0700, Jim Scheef wrote:
          > Jeff,
          >
          > This is not Token Ring. Token Ring was announced during the time or
          > the Cluster but TR would not ship for 2 years or more. As you surmise,
          > it's not Arcnet either. Nor is it Ethernet (with capital E). The IBM
          > Cluster Program (its proper name - IBM did not call it a LAN) uses
          > baseband signaling similar to Ethernet. The specs say it runs at 375K
          > bps over 75Ohm coax like for cable TV but with BNC connectors like
          > Ethernet. I'm hoping I can get short distances to work using regular
          > 50Ohn cheapernet. Like the PCjr, the Cluster was intentionally hobbled
          > to keep it out of businesses and in the classroom.
          >
          > At the same time IBM sold the IBM PC Network which they did refer to
          > as a LAN. It used broadband signaling over 75Ohn coax. This network
          > was much more complex but was the network where NetBIOS first saw
          > light.
          >
          > This was the era when LANs were new and there were no standards. True
          > Ethernet was XNet as defined by Xerox, Intel and Digital Equipment.
          > The December, 1984, issue of BYTE Magazine has an excellent review of
          > 24 different local area networks for the IBM PC. None of these would
          > interoperate and only Novell offered versions of its software to
          > operate over other vendor's hardware. I suspect this is what made them
          > successful. As a side note, the early Novell server used a Motorola
          > 68000 CPU.
          >
          > Local area networks were not really successful until the Intel 386
          > gave PCs more power and a flat memory model for the server operating
          > system.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Jeff Jonas <jeffj@...>
          > To: Jim Scheef <jscheef@...>
          > Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 9:01:17 AM
          > Subject: what network for the PC jr?
          >
          > I see your VCF entry is
          >    IBM Cluster Network
          >    Jim Scheef (New Milford, CT, United States)
          >    Play games on a diskless PCjr loading the games over the network
          >    from an XT server. The Cluster was IBM's solution
          >    for the computer classroom of the future.
          >
          > What network is that: token ring?
          > I can't believe IBM would have used ethernet on the XT
          > or Arcnet (not invented here!)
          >
          > -- jeff jonas
          >



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        • B. Degnan
          I have mentioned this before, but when I worked at IBM as a college intern in 1987 I used to set up token ring network demos, using IBM XT s ringed together.
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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            I have mentioned this before, but when I worked at IBM as a college intern
            in 1987 I used to set up token ring network demos, using IBM XT's ringed
            together. I have the software, but I am looking for the cables and cards
            if anyone has them, I would love to set this up to see if I still remember
            how to do it. The connectors were squares about 3/4" or so.
            Bill
          • Mike Loewen
            I gave up finding interesting items at Goodwill years ago, but yesterday I struck iron. A Data General LDM-800 line printer, which is a rebadged
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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              I gave up finding interesting items at Goodwill years ago, but
              yesterday I struck iron. A Data General LDM-800 line printer, which is a
              rebadged Mannesman-Tally MT661. 800 lines per minute, line matrix,
              cabinet mounted. Plus, yesterday was half-price day and it cost me a
              grand total of $5.29, including tax.

              I had to modify a power cord because of a silly protuberance in the
              socket, but...it works!

              There's another one still at the Goodwill store (minus the ribbon
              cartridge). Ya never know what you'll find...


              Mike Loewen mloewen@...
              Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
            • Bill Dromgoole
              Like this? http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=927&seq=1&format=1#largeimage ... From: B. Degnan
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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                Like this?
                http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=927&seq=1&format=1#largeimage



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 4:26 PM
                Subject: [midatlanticretro] IBM Token Ring Network


                >I have mentioned this before, but when I worked at IBM as a college intern
                > in 1987 I used to set up token ring network demos, using IBM XT's ringed
                > together. I have the software, but I am looking for the cables and cards
                > if anyone has them, I would love to set this up to see if I still remember
                > how to do it. The connectors were squares about 3/4" or so.
                > Bill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • B. Degnan
                wow, yes. Now I d just need the adapter cards. bd
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 2, 2008
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                  wow, yes. Now I'd just need the adapter cards.
                  bd

                  At 12:56 AM 8/3/2008 -0400, you wrote:


                  >Like this?
                  >http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10221&cs_id=1022101&p_id=927&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >----- Original Message -----
                  >From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
                  >To: <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 4:26 PM
                  >Subject: [midatlanticretro] IBM Token Ring Network
                  >
                  >
                  > >I have mentioned this before, but when I worked at IBM as a college intern
                  > > in 1987 I used to set up token ring network demos, using IBM XT's ringed
                  > > together. I have the software, but I am looking for the cables and cards
                  > > if anyone has them, I would love to set this up to see if I still remember
                  > > how to do it. The connectors were squares about 3/4" or so.
                  > > Bill
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Christian Liendo
                  I have a IBM PCMCIA Token RIng 16/4 card but no dongle. I can hold it for you for the next VCF. Sorry thats all I have., ... From: B. Degnan
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 3, 2008
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                    I have a IBM PCMCIA Token RIng 16/4 card but no dongle. I can hold it for you for the next VCF. Sorry thats all I have.,

                    --- On Sun, 8/3/08, B. Degnan <billdeg@...> wrote:
                    From: B. Degnan <billdeg@...>
                    Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] IBM Token Ring Network
                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 1:29 AM

                    wow, yes. Now I'd just need the adapter cards.
                    bd

                    At 12:56 AM 8/3/2008 -0400, you wrote:

                    >Like this?
                    >http://www.monopric e.com/products/ product.asp? c_id=102& cp_id=10221& cs_id=1022101& p_id=927& seq=1&format= 1#largeimage
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    >From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@degnanco. com>
                    >To: <midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com>
                    >Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 4:26 PM
                    >Subject: [midatlanticretro] IBM Token Ring Network
                    >
                    >
                    > >I have mentioned this before, but when I worked at IBM as a college intern
                    > > in 1987 I used to set up token ring network demos, using IBM XT's ringed
                    > > together. I have the software, but I am looking for the cables and cards
                    > > if anyone has them, I would love to set this up to see if I still remember
                    > > how to do it. The connectors were squares about 3/4" or so.
                    > > Bill
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >----------- --------- --------- -------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                  • Jim Scheef
                    Mike, My local Goodwill store has a few old printers. I think they have been there for several years. Jim ... From: Mike Loewen
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 3, 2008
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                      Mike,

                      My local Goodwill store has a few old printers. I think they have been there for several years.

                      Jim

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Mike Loewen <mloewen@...>
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, August 2, 2008 5:01:27 PM
                      Subject: [midatlanticretro] Goodwill


                          I gave up finding interesting items at Goodwill years ago, but
                      yesterday I struck iron.  A Data General LDM-800 line printer, which is a
                      rebadged Mannesman-Tally MT661.  800 lines per minute, line matrix,
                      cabinet mounted.  Plus, yesterday was half-price day and it cost me a
                      grand total of $5.29, including tax.

                          I had to modify a power cord because of a silly protuberance in the
                      socket, but...it works!

                          There's another one still at the Goodwill store (minus the ribbon
                      cartridge).  Ya never know what you'll find...


                      Mike Loewen                mloewen@...
                      Old Technology    http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/

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