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Re: plotter from Kagan

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  • Herb Johnson
    ... It s ... black plate ... Tht black strip is probably a Dymo lable. http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/pdp8.html I will shortly update the PDP-8 Web page
    Message 1 of 27 , May 2, 2008
      David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I have better pics on my web site, but I did not see a name plate.
      It's
      > > either on the underside or there is none.
      > >
      > You can just about read the name plate in this picture. Its the
      black plate
      > in the center back above the paper.
      > http://vintagecomputer.net/tcf_2008/digital_pdp8-era_plotter.JPG
      >
      Tht black strip is probably a Dymo lable.

      http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/pdp8.html

      I will shortly update the PDP-8 Web page I've created to include
      photos of the "Kagan" Calcomp plotter; photos of my *own* Calcomp 565
      plotter which I recently acquired; and links as posted here by David
      Gesswein to his site of his longer-version Calcomp plotter and his
      PDP-8/I exhibit at TCF-EAST last here (presuming his permission to do so).

      The nameplate on my plotter is underneath. Evan, can you look under
      the "Kagan" plotter this weekend and post the name and the model
      number you'll likely see there? Also see if the connector on the back
      looks like the connector (or connector fitting) on the photo of mine.
      I don't know the operational status of the Kagan/MARCH plotter.

      My Calcomp plotter "works" to the extent that the manual controls
      produce appropriate movement. I do not have the removable pen mech at
      all - that's why I took a number of photos of the Kagan plotter's pen
      mech. I anticipated either obtaining one for me, or building one. I am
      not sure the MARCH/Kagan pen mech is complete - David, please comment.

      I volunteer to review and restore the MARCH/Kagan Calcomp plotter.
      This I can do, I have one myself, I need to fix mine, I see that David
      has the docs online and runs one also. But it may not happen this
      month (May).

      Herb Johnson
      We have the technology.
      retrotechnology.com
    • Herb Johnson
      ... Correction to my recent post. There IS a Bendix nameplate behind the drum as David noted. I did the image zoom and ehnance Bob suggested. Sorry, can t
      Message 2 of 27 , May 2, 2008
        > --- David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote:
        >
        > > > I have better pics on my web site, but I did not see a name plate.
        > > It's
        > > > either on the underside or there is none.
        > > >
        > > You can just about read the name plate in this picture. Its the black
        > > plate
        > > in the center back above the paper.
        > > http://vintagecomputer.net/tcf_2008/digital_pdp8-era_plotter.JPG
        > >
        >Bob Grieb <bobgrieb@...> wrote:
        >
        > If this were a high-tech movie, we could just zoom in on
        > that label, then hit a button called "enhance" and the
        > label would appear clearly on the screen. Too bad it
        > doesn't really work that way...
        >

        Correction to my recent post. There IS a "Bendix" nameplate behind the
        drum as David noted. I did the image "zoom and ehnance" Bob suggested.
        Sorry, can't create pixels from thin air. Bendix was a manufacturer of
        the era. But look at Bill's and David's and my (Herb's) photos and I
        think it's likely the Kagan plotter is Calcomp.

        So Evan, please report on the Bendix nameplate and whatever Calcomp
        nameplate is likely underneath the plotter. Thanks!

        The PDP-8 page now has some discussion of the plotter. Claude will
        have to be asked about how it came to be part of the 8.

        Additionally, I have no good photos of the "Kagan/RESISTORS" Teletype.
        Evan or whoever, can you photograph the cleaned-up Teletype and
        provide the photo? Contact me c/o retrotechnology.com, check the site
        for an address.

        Herb Johnson
        retrotechnology.com
      • Evan Koblentz
        ... nameplate is likely underneath the plotter ... photograph the cleaned-up Teletype and Will do (or at least will try to remember -- someone please send me
        Message 3 of 27 , May 2, 2008
          >>>> Evan, please report on the Bendix nameplate and whatever Calcomp
          nameplate is likely underneath the plotter ... photograph the
          cleaned-up Teletype and

          Will do (or at least will try to remember -- someone please send me an
          email Saturday in the early afternoon).

          Tonight I'm going to see "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay".
          I'm told that it picks up in the evening, as they are back in their
          Hoboken apartment digesting the White Castle burgers.
        • David Gesswein
          ... They are the same as yours and mine. Looks like your power plug is broken. It is still a production part. If you need me to dig up where I bought one let
          Message 4 of 27 , May 2, 2008
            > Also see if the connector on the back
            > looks like the connector (or connector fitting) on the photo of mine.
            >
            They are the same as yours and mine. Looks like your power plug is
            broken. It is still a production part. If you need me to dig up where I
            bought one let me know. The data plug seems to be long out of production.
            I saw a part broker had one at much more than I wanted to pay. I made a
            cable with some leftover pins for mil round connectors and some hot melt.

            The MARCH plotter has a cable coming out from the guts, possible through
            where the fuse holder should be. Looks like they couldn't get a mate either.

            > I don't know the operational status of the Kagan/MARCH plotter.
            >
            Nobody does. It looks like it was operation when last used in the mid 70's
            I didn't look inside enough to see if something significant was obvious.

            > I do not have the removable pen mech at
            > all
            >
            That will be a little tricky to make a replacement for. The pen holder is
            a solenoid. It is powered by the two wires that move the pen left and
            right. The pen is in a metal part which is the solenoid core which the
            outer coil moves up and down for pen up and down.

            - that's why I took a number of photos of the Kagan plotter's pen
            > mech. I anticipated either obtaining one for me, or building one. I am
            > not sure the MARCH/Kagan pen mech is complete - David, please comment.
            >
            In the previous list email I said its missing the interior metal core and the
            top. I will try to take some more pictures this weekend and add them
            to my Calcomp page.
          • Bryan Pope
            ... you are correcto-mondo sir.. It picks up a couple of hours after the last movie as our intrepid heroes try to follow the beautiful Maria to Amsterdam..
            Message 5 of 27 , May 2, 2008
              Evan Koblentz wrote:
              > Will do (or at least will try to remember -- someone please send me an
              > email Saturday in the early afternoon).
              >
              > Tonight I'm going to see "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay".
              > I'm told that it picks up in the evening, as they are back in their
              > Hoboken apartment digesting the White Castle burgers.
              >
              you are correcto-mondo sir.. It picks up a couple of hours after the
              last movie as our intrepid heroes try to follow the beautiful Maria to
              Amsterdam.. Neil Patrick Harris will be making another appearance.. :)

              Cheers,

              Bryan

              P.S. Have a joy joy day!
            • John Allain
              ... Here s my version of a zoom and enhance for group view: http://www.panix.com/~allain/BendiX.jpg ... Yes, Didn t David even bring one of those Calcomps to
              Message 6 of 27 , May 2, 2008
                > There IS a "Bendix" nameplate behind the
                > drum as David noted. I did the image "zoom and ehnance" Bob suggested.

                Here's my version of a zoom and enhance for group view:
                http://www.panix.com/~allain/BendiX.jpg

                > But look at Bill's and David's and my (Herb's) photos and I
                > think it's likely the Kagan plotter is Calcomp.

                Yes, Didn't David even bring one of those Calcomps to the VCFe?

                John A.
              • Herb Johnson
                David Gesswein wrote at length about the MARCH/Kagan Calcomp plotter and about mine, based on the pictures I ve posted of both on my PDP-8 Web page.
                Message 7 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                  David Gesswein <djg@...> wrote at length about the MARCH/Kagan
                  Calcomp plotter and about mine, based on the pictures I've posted of
                  both on my PDP-8 Web page. I've responded privately and he and I will
                  discuss details. Any results of note will be on my PDP-8 page or
                  posted here.

                  Addtional photos on my PDP-8 Web page now include a picture of the pen
                  mechanism, taken from the Calcomp manual available via David's
                  excellent PDP-8 and Calcomp plotter Web pages. Thank you to David.
                  David's site is linked from my Web page.

                  http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/pdp8.html

                  In due course, I expect MARCH to create their own Web page, on the
                  MARCH Web site, about the RESISTORS/Kagan PDP-8 and related devices.
                  There is considerable history about this donation which MARCH should
                  explore with Claude and put on a MARCH-generated Web page and into
                  documents associated with MARCH's PDP-8 display. I just got things
                  started, as did Bill with his photos, and Evan by setting up the '8
                  for display; and as other MARCH friends and members contributed their
                  efforts. (Those contributions are better noted on a MARCH Web page
                  than on mine.)

                  I'm busy enough, working on a PDP-11/20 display for MARCH.

                  Otherwise, as I've posted, I'm willing to work on the Calcomp plotter
                  because I have what is likely to be a duplicate, working unit. And I
                  need parts for mine as well!

                  Herb Johnson
                  retrotechnology.com
                • Herb Johnson
                  ... David s Web page is now linked on my PDP-8 Web page, and he has pictures of his PDP-8/I exhibit. John, about your zoom and enhance . Here s an idea,
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                    "John Allain" <allain@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > There IS a "Bendix" nameplate behind the
                    > > drum as David noted. I did the image "zoom and ehnance" Bob suggested.
                    >
                    > Here's my version of a zoom and enhance for group view:
                    > http://www.panix.com/~allain/BendiX.jpg
                    >
                    > > But look at Bill's and David's and my (Herb's) photos and I
                    > > think it's likely the Kagan plotter is Calcomp.
                    >
                    > Yes, Didn't David even bring one of those Calcomps to the VCFe?
                    >
                    > John A.
                    >

                    David's Web page is now linked on my PDP-8 Web page, and he has
                    pictures of his PDP-8/I exhibit.

                    John, about your "zoom and enhance". Here's an idea, others can
                    participate. The '8 Web page has photos of the modules on either side
                    of the PDP-8. Why not "zoom" in and make a text table of the modules
                    by name? Someone will have to do that eventually to inventory the
                    modules, see that they are in their proper places, and see if any are
                    missing or needed. A table of "original" positions, before any work is
                    done, will be a useful reference.

                    http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/pdp8.html

                    Just give me time to add higher-resolution images to that page.

                    I've done this for the 11/20, on its Web page.

                    http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/

                    herb johnson
                    retrotechnology.com
                  • Evan
                    It reminded me of Clerks 2 -- funny, but not as good as the original. ... From: Bryan Pope Subj: OT: Harold & Kumar (was: Re:
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                      It reminded me of Clerks 2 -- funny, but not as good as the original.

                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...>
                      Subj: OT: Harold & Kumar (was: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: plotter from Kagan)
                      Date: Fri May 2, 2008 4:45 pm
                      Size: 1K
                      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com

                      Evan Koblentz wrote:
                      > Will do (or at least will try to remember -- someone please send me an
                      > email Saturday in the early afternoon).
                      >
                      > Tonight I'm going to see "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay".
                      > I'm told that it picks up in the evening, as they are back in their
                      > Hoboken apartment digesting the White Castle burgers.
                      >
                      you are correcto-mondo sir.. It picks up a couple of hours after the
                      last movie as our intrepid heroes try to follow the beautiful Maria to
                      Amsterdam.. Neil Patrick Harris will be making another appearance.. :)

                      Cheers,

                      Bryan

                      P.S. Have a joy joy day!


                      ------------------------------------

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                    • Bryan Pope
                      ... LOL! And speaking of that, I *just* finished watching Clerks! :) Lots of funny parts... Cheers, Bryan
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                        Evan wrote:
                        > It reminded me of Clerks 2 -- funny, but not as good as the original.
                        >
                        LOL! And speaking of that, I *just* finished watching Clerks! :) Lots
                        of funny parts...

                        Cheers,

                        Bryan

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > From: Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...>
                        > Subj: OT: Harold & Kumar (was: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: plotter from Kagan)
                        > Date: Fri May 2, 2008 4:45 pm
                        > Size: 1K
                        > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Evan Koblentz wrote:
                        >
                        >> Will do (or at least will try to remember -- someone please send me an
                        >> email Saturday in the early afternoon).
                        >>
                        >> Tonight I'm going to see "Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay".
                        >> I'm told that it picks up in the evening, as they are back in their
                        >> Hoboken apartment digesting the White Castle burgers.
                        >>
                        >>
                        > you are correcto-mondo sir.. It picks up a couple of hours after the
                        > last movie as our intrepid heroes try to follow the beautiful Maria to
                        > Amsterdam.. Neil Patrick Harris will be making another appearance.. :)
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Bryan
                        >
                        > P.S. Have a joy joy day!
                        >
                        >
                        > -
                      • mejeep_ferret
                        I just read http://www.pdp8online.com/563/563.shtml That s a fine web page about the plotter. The manuals are greatly appreciated. It would be great seeing
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                          I just read
                          http://www.pdp8online.com/563/563.shtml
                          That's a fine web page about the plotter. The manuals are greatly
                          appreciated. It would be great seeing the Plotter Excerciser and
                          Plotter Diagnostic running the plotter again.

                          I have the IBM 1627 model 1 as shown in
                          http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/Plotter.html
                          I used it on the IBM system 1130 at college and got to keep it when
                          the systems were scrapped/decommissioned (no space!) I wrote FORTRAN
                          programs to generate Bode plots on the semilog paper, pausing to
                          change pen color for phase and magnitude.

                          They're actually made by Calcomp (and the 1130's paper tape reader was
                          actually made by Tally).

                          The interface is /really dumb/: just wires for
                          +X one step (1/100 inch)
                          -X one step
                          +Y one step
                          -Y one step
                          pen up
                          pen down

                          I have the IBM manuals for the plotter. It's an amazing amount of
                          transistorized circuitry for just advancing the stepper motors without
                          anything fancy such as slewing them motors.

                          I have at least 50 paper rolls for it (one foot by about 100 feet) but
                          most are pre-printed with semilog and log-log scales.

                          Yes, the takeup spool was just a spare cardboard tube from the paper
                          roll. The drum was large enough to tape a letter sized paper on it
                          (preferably with drafting tape so it removes completely without residue).

                          When I can dig out the fitted wood accessory boxes, I'll photograph
                          all the pieces
                          - the solenoid used for all pen types
                          - the sleeve and low top for the small ballpoint pens
                          - the sleeve and high top for the pressurized ballpoint pens
                          - the tip, barrel, collar, ink reservoir and hollow top for the
                          drafting pens
                          - the small glass alignment reticle with crosshairs for aligning the
                          carriage using the holder one inch above the pen (the program had to
                          move back one inch since it's not reasonable for the operator to count
                          100 single steps). (the Bendix carriage does not have that).
                          - the large glass alignment reticle with crosshairs that goes into the
                          pen holder for aligning where the pen goes.

                          The hollow top for the drafting pen also allowed felt tip pens that
                          were fitted with a metal ring.

                          -- Jeff Jonas
                        • B. Degnan
                          It s been a while - I have updated my home page. http://vintagecomputer.net bd
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                            It's been a while - I have updated my home page.

                            http://vintagecomputer.net

                            bd
                          • Evan Koblentz
                            I borrowed that first issue from Erik K. @ VCF last fall. Had it autographed by Lee Felsenstein. :) ... From: B. Degnan [mailto:billdeg@degnanco.com] Sent:
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                              I borrowed that first issue from Erik K. @ VCF last fall. Had it
                              autographed by Lee Felsenstein. :)


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: B. Degnan [mailto:billdeg@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:53 AM
                              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [midatlanticretro] vintagecomputer.net update


                              It's been a while - I have updated my home page.

                              http://vintagecomputer.net

                              bd




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                            • Dan Roganti
                              Bryan Pope wrote: Evan wrote: It reminded me of Clerks 2 -- funny, but not as good as the original. LOL! And speaking of that, I *just* finished watching
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 4, 2008

                                Bryan Pope wrote:
                                Evan wrote:
                                  
                                It reminded me of Clerks 2 -- funny, but not as good as the original.
                                    
                                LOL!  And speaking of that, I *just* finished watching Clerks! :)  Lots 
                                of funny parts...
                                  

                                I   AM    I-I-I-R-R-O-O-N-N-M-M-A-A-N-N

                                Definitely worth absorbing the ambiance from the silver screen.

                                But then I didn't grow up without my comic books nor graphic novels.

                                =Dan
                                -- 
                                [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/           ]
                                
                              • Herb Johnson
                                ... Hello, Jeff, my compliments. Thanks for the Web link and your compliments about Dave s Web page. I ve added the IBM link to my PDP-8 Web page. In due
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 4, 2008
                                  "mejeep_ferret" <mejeep@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > I just read
                                  > http://www.pdp8online.com/563/563.shtml
                                  > That's a fine web page about the plotter. The manuals are greatly
                                  > appreciated. It would be great seeing the Plotter Excerciser and
                                  > Plotter Diagnostic running the plotter again.
                                  >
                                  > I have the IBM 1627 model 1 as shown in
                                  > http://www.ibm1130.net/functional/Plotter.html
                                  > I used it on the IBM system 1130 at college and got to keep it when
                                  > the systems were scrapped/decommissioned (no space!)...

                                  Hello, Jeff, my compliments.

                                  Thanks for the Web link and your compliments about Dave's Web page.
                                  I've added the IBM link to "my" PDP-8 Web page. In due course I'll add
                                  your plotter comments here as a description there, with your
                                  permission. Thanks!

                                  > I have the IBM manuals for the plotter.

                                  You might compare them to the Calcomp manuals which Dave links to on
                                  his site.

                                  > I have at least 50 paper rolls for it (one foot by about
                                  > 100 feet) but
                                  > most are pre-printed with semilog and log-log scales.

                                  Preprinting is no big deal; one could reverse the roll. I'd like a few
                                  rolls for my plotter; I presume MARCH would like a few. I'd be glad to
                                  pay shipping for some rolls and pass a few along to MARCH. I'll
                                  contact you privately to discuss terms.

                                  > When I can dig out the fitted wood accessory boxes, I'll photograph
                                  > all the pieces

                                  Greatly appreciated, I'll add them to the page, you can send them to
                                  me. Let me know if there are any photos I need to take of *my*
                                  plotter. Presuming Evan permits me to restore the MARCH/Kagan plotter,
                                  I'll photograph it while in process.

                                  Hmmm...this bit of work may evolve into a permanent Calcomp plotter
                                  Web page on my (retrotechnology.com) Web site. Ultimately I presume
                                  MARCH will have their own PDP-8 Web page with other bits like the
                                  plotter, TTY, any papertape reader MARCH comes up with).

                                  Herb Johnson
                                  old plotter
                                  retrotechnology.com
                                • Evan Koblentz
                                  Today was the first day our 8 was on public display at the museum. We had a typical amount of visitors today (around a dozen), most of whom seemed very into
                                  Message 16 of 27 , May 4, 2008
                                    Today was the first day our '8 was on public display at the museum. We had
                                    a typical amount of visitors today (around a dozen), most of whom seemed
                                    very into computers (sometimes they're not). Everyone today had that 'wow'
                                    expression when they saw the minicomputer. :)

                                    NJARC's Harry Klancer was particularly happy to see it in our museum,
                                    because he used to work on the same model. I suggested to him that he sign
                                    on to our list here...

                                    Tuesday night, I'm meeting the plastics guy (see thread below). Going to
                                    bring him the intact side of the '8 cover so he can take measurements and
                                    assess whether it's feasible to make two replicas at a decent price for us.
                                    (Dont worry, I am NOT leaving the original cover with him.)

                                    I had to bring the cover home today in the passenger seat because it doesn't
                                    fit in my trunk!



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:37 AM
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: PDP-8 ... On display


                                    Cool. I didn't look at it that closely but I will this weekend. (Might be
                                    down there Saturday AND Sunday this weekend. There's some kind of special
                                    "Monmouth County Historal Trail", or whatever it's called, and Fred
                                    announced at the meeting last night that InfoAge is on the map. We're
                                    supposed to be open 12-5 both days.

                                    Also, today I called a couple of local plastics fabricators. One company
                                    particularly impressed me. As soon as I said "non-profit science museum"
                                    the guy was very responsive. Said he's been in the field for 30 years and
                                    he rattled off a list of high-profile clients, including a bunch of artsy
                                    things, so he 'gets' that what we're doing is special and fragile. Said I
                                    can bring him the intact original side of the '8's plexi cover, and that
                                    he'll take some measurements and assess if he can build two new covers in a
                                    cost-effective manner. From what he said on the phone today, I feel very
                                    encouraged.



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: mejeep_ferret [mailto:mejeep@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:25 AM
                                    To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: PDP-8 ... On display


                                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
                                    > As promised, here are some cameraphone pictures from tonight (just
                                    > 1.3MP

                                    the plotter on the left
                                    - what is the nameplate: IBM or CalComp?
                                    - do you have all the pen accessories?
                                    - is it interfaced to anything?

                                    The reason I ask: I have an identical IBM 1627 plotter complete with manual,
                                    both wood boxes of accessories, and lotsa paper rolls for it!


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