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Re: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80 (and in general hosting an archive)

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  • Evan Koblentz
    That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable. ... Legal, too, please...
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
      That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
      >
      > Bill

      Legal, too, please...
    • relayer
      That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument. There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of abandonware or orphaned status
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
        That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.

        There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
        abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
        systems.

        Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
        well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
        protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
        the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
        legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
        Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.

        Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
        these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
        trouble.

        Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
        lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
        this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
        majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

        Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
        contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
        officially abandoned.

        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
        >
        > That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
        > >
        > > Bill
        >
        > Legal, too, please...
        >
      • B Degnan
        ... There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to handle: 1. What is the definition of vintage computers? 2. Archiving old software
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
          > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
          >
          > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
          > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
          > systems.
          >
          > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
          > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
          > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
          > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
          > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
          > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
          >

          There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to
          handle:
          1. What is the definition of vintage computers?
          2. Archiving old software - how to make archives available to the public

          Go with your gut instincts and take action on your own. If you have a
          good plan, people will follow you.

          Bill
        • Ray Sills
          That s always an issue with old software. One way the software might be able to be legally archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
            That's always an issue with old software. One way the software might
            be able to be legally
            archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
            had a case one with a
            software author who decided that his business was going nowhere and
            that there was no
            further need to keep his work protected, and he even -released- the
            software into the
            public domain.

            If current copyright holders are dubious about that, all that would
            be needed to do is to
            secure a license to archive the material. Perhaps if the copyright
            holder were assured that
            the material would simply be archived, the original copyright notice
            kept in place,and
            the software would not be modified, sold, and not incorporated into
            any subsequent work, etc.,
            then a license for archival use could be obtained. And therefore,
            the archive would be legal.

            73 de Ray



            On Jul 12, 2007, at 7:28 AM, relayer wrote:

            > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
            >
            > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
            > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
            > systems.
            >
            > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
            > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
            > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
            > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
            > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
            > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
            >
            > Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
            > these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
            > trouble.
            >
            > Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
            > lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
            > this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
            > majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.
            >
            > Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
            > contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
            > officially abandoned.
            >
            > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
            > wrote:
            >>
            >> That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
            >>>
            >>> Bill
            >>
            >> Legal, too, please...
            >>
            >
          • B Degnan
            At the University of Delaware, the Educational Use rule seems to cover all materials that are copied and sold as binded books for students. Why would a web
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
              At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
              all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
              Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?

              what is the difference between code and copies?

              Bill
            • Hex Star
              Hello, I already have copies of Ira s archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
                Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...

                Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                Username: none needed
                Password: none needed

                Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :) ( P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and then press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
              • Evan Koblentz
                Yes, we know. Already been discussed.
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
                  Yes, we know. Already been discussed.

                  > Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as
                  > many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow
                  > below...
                  >
                  > Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to
                  > http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                  > Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                  > Username: none needed
                  > Password: none needed
                  >
                  > Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :)
                  > (
                  > P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in
                  > mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and
                  > then
                  > press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
                  >
                • Evan Koblentz
                  I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We re not one.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
                    I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific
                    copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We're not
                    one.



                    > At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
                    > all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
                    > Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?
                    >
                    > what is the difference between code and copies?
                    >
                    > Bill
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Evan Koblentz
                    ... well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? Nope. We haven t made any such decision. Which is one reason why the material can t be on our server -- hosting it
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
                      >>> Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                      well, a MARCH sanctioned venture?

                      Nope. We haven't made any such decision. Which is one reason why the
                      material can't be on our server -- hosting it would imply endorsement.

                      >>> Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
                      these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
                      trouble.

                      I agree with both of those statements.

                      >>> Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
                      lobbying effort in Washington ... I'm sure it would be easy to prove
                      that the majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

                      I like you, but ... are you serious!?!?

                      >>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                      declare the items officially abandoned.

                      One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                      foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                      events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                      our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                      corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                      efforts.)
                    • madodel
                      ... I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from all
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
                        Evan Koblentz wrote:

                        >
                        >>>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                        > declare the items officially abandoned.
                        >
                        > One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                        > foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                        > events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                        > our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                        > corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                        > efforts.)
                        >

                        I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers
                        estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from
                        all the copyright holders who had been contracted to provide code for parts
                        of the operating system (things like many of the included drivers, fonts,
                        and other things which were not written 100% by IBM). Many of original
                        entities were defunct, so tracking down most of the current copyright
                        holders might have been impossible anyway. So IBM decided that it wasn't
                        worth the cost. That is what I was told by an IBMer who was in a position
                        to know. It had nothing to do with Microsoft which is what most people
                        seem to believe. Also some companies still pay IBM to maintain a line of
                        OS/2 source code just for them, so even though it is no longer publicly
                        marketed, it is still bringing in revenue to IBM.

                        If IBM can't afford the effort I doubt most anyone can. Unless the
                        software was entirely written by one entity and had no inclusive
                        copyrighted source from anyone else I don't think this is realistic.
                        Perhaps some of the really old stuff from the days when software and
                        manuals were written by a small company or group of developers might be
                        easy to get a release from, but I would think things like the TRS and Apple
                        would fall under the same problems as IBM.

                        Mark


                        --

                        From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                        Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org
                        Warpstock Europe - http://www.warpstock.net


                        For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
                        http://www.os2voice.org

                        "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the
                        growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their
                        democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of
                        government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private
                        power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly
                        Investigation, 1938
                      • Hex Star
                        ... Hello, if you have stuff you d like to upload so that the whole community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great candidate, simply connect
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 13, 2007
                          On 7/11/07, relayer <relayer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that
                          > used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait
                          > till after VCF to raise the subject again. It is now post-VCF.
                          >
                          > I've been collecting classic computers since 1996, about the same time
                          > I discovered emulation. In those many years, I've managed to gather
                          > stuff together. A bit here and a bit there to allow me to take
                          > advantage of the fun classic computers have to offer whether it's for
                          > a real device or through emulation.
                          >
                          > Someone mentioned having a server to host files for a reborn TRS-80
                          > archive. How can I help?
                          >
                          > Contact me privately if you wish, but if your replies would benefit
                          > the MARCH collective, please keep them public.
                          >


                          Hello, if you have stuff you'd like to upload so that the whole
                          community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great
                          candidate, simply connect to my server with the following information
                          then click File Browser on the left hand side, open the Uploads
                          folder, use the right button menu to create a folder for your files
                          and use the right click menu to upload your files into that folder.
                          People will be able to access the uploaded files 24/7 even before I
                          sort them, so if you want a solution that has the community in mind my
                          server is the way to go :) ...here are the connection details:

                          Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go here:
                          http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                          Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                          Username: none needed
                          Password: none needed
                        • Evan
                          We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 14, 2007
                            We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the Wall Township attorney. I can look into this further if necessary.

                            For now may we please table this whole archiving thing?
                          • Evan
                            Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
                              Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                            • Evan
                              Oops I meant any not and ...
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
                                Oops I meant "any" not "and" ...
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