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Re: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80 (and in general hosting an archive)

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  • B Degnan
    ... Our office is in downtown Wilmington, and our datacenter is a few blocks away in the basement of a private phone company. We used to house the whole thing
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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      >
      > Bill, I was General Manager of an ISP from 1994 until I sold it in 2000
      > and went back to the easy life (working for someone else). I still have
      > rights to co-locate a server at their facility, but remote management
      > isn't much fun.
      >

      Our office is in downtown Wilmington, and our datacenter is a few blocks
      away in the basement of a private phone company. We used to house the
      whole thing in our office, but air conditioning and power requirements
      became too great.

      If anyone wants to host files, mail them to me on DVD or CD:

      Degnan CO
      c/o M.A.R.C.H.
      PO Box 2366
      Wilmington, DE 19899

      I will review them and post those that are relevant, and then announce to
      the group.

      If need be we can install a 250 GB hard drive for hosting just vintage
      computer files, (and perform a daily backup), so that they're kept
      separated from the "regular" network and give us plenty of space. That
      said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.

      Bill
    • Evan Koblentz
      That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable. ... Legal, too, please...
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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        That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
        >
        > Bill

        Legal, too, please...
      • relayer
        That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument. There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of abandonware or orphaned status
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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          That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.

          There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
          abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
          systems.

          Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
          well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
          protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
          the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
          legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
          Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.

          Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
          these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
          trouble.

          Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
          lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
          this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
          majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

          Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
          contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
          officially abandoned.

          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
          >
          > That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
          > >
          > > Bill
          >
          > Legal, too, please...
          >
        • B Degnan
          ... There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to handle: 1. What is the definition of vintage computers? 2. Archiving old software
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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            > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
            >
            > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
            > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
            > systems.
            >
            > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
            > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
            > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
            > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
            > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
            > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
            >

            There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to
            handle:
            1. What is the definition of vintage computers?
            2. Archiving old software - how to make archives available to the public

            Go with your gut instincts and take action on your own. If you have a
            good plan, people will follow you.

            Bill
          • Ray Sills
            That s always an issue with old software. One way the software might be able to be legally archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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              That's always an issue with old software. One way the software might
              be able to be legally
              archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
              had a case one with a
              software author who decided that his business was going nowhere and
              that there was no
              further need to keep his work protected, and he even -released- the
              software into the
              public domain.

              If current copyright holders are dubious about that, all that would
              be needed to do is to
              secure a license to archive the material. Perhaps if the copyright
              holder were assured that
              the material would simply be archived, the original copyright notice
              kept in place,and
              the software would not be modified, sold, and not incorporated into
              any subsequent work, etc.,
              then a license for archival use could be obtained. And therefore,
              the archive would be legal.

              73 de Ray



              On Jul 12, 2007, at 7:28 AM, relayer wrote:

              > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
              >
              > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
              > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
              > systems.
              >
              > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
              > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
              > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
              > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
              > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
              > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
              >
              > Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
              > these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
              > trouble.
              >
              > Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
              > lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
              > this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
              > majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.
              >
              > Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
              > contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
              > officially abandoned.
              >
              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
              > wrote:
              >>
              >> That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
              >>>
              >>> Bill
              >>
              >> Legal, too, please...
              >>
              >
            • B Degnan
              At the University of Delaware, the Educational Use rule seems to cover all materials that are copied and sold as binded books for students. Why would a web
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
                all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
                Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?

                what is the difference between code and copies?

                Bill
              • Hex Star
                Hello, I already have copies of Ira s archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                  Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...

                  Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                  Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                  Username: none needed
                  Password: none needed

                  Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :) ( P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and then press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
                • Evan Koblentz
                  Yes, we know. Already been discussed.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                    Yes, we know. Already been discussed.

                    > Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as
                    > many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow
                    > below...
                    >
                    > Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to
                    > http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                    > Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                    > Username: none needed
                    > Password: none needed
                    >
                    > Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :)
                    > (
                    > P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in
                    > mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and
                    > then
                    > press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
                    >
                  • Evan Koblentz
                    I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We re not one.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                      I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific
                      copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We're not
                      one.



                      > At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
                      > all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
                      > Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?
                      >
                      > what is the difference between code and copies?
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Evan Koblentz
                      ... well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? Nope. We haven t made any such decision. Which is one reason why the material can t be on our server -- hosting it
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                        >>> Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                        well, a MARCH sanctioned venture?

                        Nope. We haven't made any such decision. Which is one reason why the
                        material can't be on our server -- hosting it would imply endorsement.

                        >>> Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
                        these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
                        trouble.

                        I agree with both of those statements.

                        >>> Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
                        lobbying effort in Washington ... I'm sure it would be easy to prove
                        that the majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

                        I like you, but ... are you serious!?!?

                        >>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                        declare the items officially abandoned.

                        One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                        foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                        events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                        our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                        corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                        efforts.)
                      • madodel
                        ... I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from all
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                          Evan Koblentz wrote:

                          >
                          >>>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                          > declare the items officially abandoned.
                          >
                          > One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                          > foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                          > events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                          > our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                          > corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                          > efforts.)
                          >

                          I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers
                          estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from
                          all the copyright holders who had been contracted to provide code for parts
                          of the operating system (things like many of the included drivers, fonts,
                          and other things which were not written 100% by IBM). Many of original
                          entities were defunct, so tracking down most of the current copyright
                          holders might have been impossible anyway. So IBM decided that it wasn't
                          worth the cost. That is what I was told by an IBMer who was in a position
                          to know. It had nothing to do with Microsoft which is what most people
                          seem to believe. Also some companies still pay IBM to maintain a line of
                          OS/2 source code just for them, so even though it is no longer publicly
                          marketed, it is still bringing in revenue to IBM.

                          If IBM can't afford the effort I doubt most anyone can. Unless the
                          software was entirely written by one entity and had no inclusive
                          copyrighted source from anyone else I don't think this is realistic.
                          Perhaps some of the really old stuff from the days when software and
                          manuals were written by a small company or group of developers might be
                          easy to get a release from, but I would think things like the TRS and Apple
                          would fall under the same problems as IBM.

                          Mark


                          --

                          From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                          Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org
                          Warpstock Europe - http://www.warpstock.net


                          For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
                          http://www.os2voice.org

                          "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the
                          growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their
                          democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of
                          government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private
                          power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly
                          Investigation, 1938
                        • Hex Star
                          ... Hello, if you have stuff you d like to upload so that the whole community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great candidate, simply connect
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 13, 2007
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                            On 7/11/07, relayer <relayer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that
                            > used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait
                            > till after VCF to raise the subject again. It is now post-VCF.
                            >
                            > I've been collecting classic computers since 1996, about the same time
                            > I discovered emulation. In those many years, I've managed to gather
                            > stuff together. A bit here and a bit there to allow me to take
                            > advantage of the fun classic computers have to offer whether it's for
                            > a real device or through emulation.
                            >
                            > Someone mentioned having a server to host files for a reborn TRS-80
                            > archive. How can I help?
                            >
                            > Contact me privately if you wish, but if your replies would benefit
                            > the MARCH collective, please keep them public.
                            >


                            Hello, if you have stuff you'd like to upload so that the whole
                            community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great
                            candidate, simply connect to my server with the following information
                            then click File Browser on the left hand side, open the Uploads
                            folder, use the right button menu to create a folder for your files
                            and use the right click menu to upload your files into that folder.
                            People will be able to access the uploaded files 24/7 even before I
                            sort them, so if you want a solution that has the community in mind my
                            server is the way to go :) ...here are the connection details:

                            Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go here:
                            http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                            Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                            Username: none needed
                            Password: none needed
                          • Evan
                            We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 14, 2007
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                              We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the Wall Township attorney. I can look into this further if necessary.

                              For now may we please table this whole archiving thing?
                            • Evan
                              Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
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                                Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                              • Evan
                                Oops I meant any not and ...
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
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                                  Oops I meant "any" not "and" ...
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