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TRS-80

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  • relayer
    I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait till after VCF to
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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      I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that
      used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait
      till after VCF to raise the subject again. It is now post-VCF.

      I've been collecting classic computers since 1996, about the same time
      I discovered emulation. In those many years, I've managed to gather
      stuff together. A bit here and a bit there to allow me to take
      advantage of the fun classic computers have to offer whether it's for
      a real device or through emulation.

      Someone mentioned having a server to host files for a reborn TRS-80
      archive. How can I help?

      Contact me privately if you wish, but if your replies would benefit
      the MARCH collective, please keep them public.
    • Bob Applegate
      Do we want to put out a list of who s got what capabilities at their disposal for the storage of archives, web pages, etc? I see a fair number of people
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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        Do we want to put out a list of who's got what capabilities at their disposal for the storage of archives, web pages, etc?
        I see a fair number of people hosting things against their ISP's TOS which means those sites could disappear at any
        time with little/no warning, and that worries me. 
         
        Here's what I've got available... a business FiOS account.  20/5 Mb/sec.  Right now I've got three Unix servers on-line,
        two of which run web servers.  All machines have static IPs and are fully compliant with my TOS contract.  Some
        machines have hundreds of GBs available, one is a lot smaller.  These are good for storage and basic web servers.
        I can (and do) support virtual domains and mailing lists.  Note that this is now a hobby for me (I used to own/manage
        and ISP), so do not expect business class services.   If you want some special software installed, you'll have to do
        it yourself or go without.  Daily and weekly backups are done.
         
        I'm sure many others on this list have other capabilities that might be useful to store old computer history as well.
         
        Bob
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: relayer
        Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 7:32 AM
        Subject: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80

        I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that
        used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait
        till after VCF to raise the subject again. It is now post-VCF.

        I've been collecting classic computers since 1996, about the same time
        I discovered emulation. In those many years, I've managed to gather
        stuff together. A bit here and a bit there to allow me to take
        advantage of the fun classic computers have to offer whether it's for
        a real device or through emulation.

        Someone mentioned having a server to host files for a reborn TRS-80
        archive. How can I help?

        Contact me privately if you wish, but if your replies would benefit
        the MARCH collective, please keep them public.

      • B. Degnan
        ... Hi - I own the ISP that our web site is hosted, and it s a commercial ISP in Wilmington, degnanco.net. We host accounts for Dun and Bradstreet, Campbells
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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          At 07:51 AM 7/11/2007 -0400, you wrote:
          Do we want to put out a list of who's got what capabilities at their disposal for the storage of archives, web pages, etc?
          I see a fair number of people hosting things against their ISP's TOS which means those sites could disappear at any
          time with little/no warning, and that worries me. 
           
          Here's what I've got available... a business FiOS account.  20/5 Mb/sec.  Right now I've got three Unix servers on-line,
          two of which run web servers.  All machines have static IPs and are fully compliant with my TOS contract.  Some
          machines have hundreds of GBs available, one is a lot smaller.  These are good for storage and basic web servers.
          I can (and do) support virtual domains and mailing lists.  Note that this is now a hobby for me (I used to own/manage
          and ISP), so do not expect business class services.   If you want some special software installed, you'll have to do
          it yourself or go without.  Daily and weekly backups are done.
           
          I'm sure many others on this list have other capabilities that might be useful to store old computer history as well.
           


          Hi - I own the ISP that our web site is hosted, and it's a commercial ISP in Wilmington, degnanco.net.  We host accounts for Dun and Bradstreet, Campbells Soup, Spherion Corp and many others.  We're not a utility company  volume hoster but we do have plenty of storage and bandwidth.  If anyone wants to make available files to the hosting account, provided that the files are legal, let me know directly.  The MARCH BOD will  perform content/legal approval but if appropriate can send me a DVD or CD and I can have one of our network techs copy the files to the server.  We have and will continue to host the midatlanticretro.org hosting for free.  Don't forget that we already have an inventory system online midatlanticretro.org/inventory/ for use by all.

          I have the entire TRS 80 archive 4 DVD set, I also have the complete Chuck Peddle speech.  This thread reminds me to get moving on these projects.

          Bill Degnan
          degnanco.net
        • Dan
          I ve been archiving some really great articles into pdf, more recently from the 1984 10th anniv issue of Creative Computing. I think it would be nice to let
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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            I've been archiving some really great articles into pdf, more recently from the 1984 10th anniv issue of Creative Computing. I think it would be nice to let others have a chance to read this too. There's 4 articles written by 'The First Decade of Personal Computing' by David Ahl, The Altair Story by Forrest Mims, 'The Early Days of Personal Computing' by Stephen Gray and 'History of Creative Computing' by John Anderson. I scanned these so the type is clearly visible when printed so they take up about 7MB each, some more. I just don't have much room left on my homepage to host these. I think these would be a great addition to the March website.

            =Dan
            [ vintage electrons are just as good    ]
            [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/        ]
            


            B. Degnan wrote:

            At 07:51 AM 7/11/2007 -0400, you wrote:

            Do we want to put out a list of who's got what capabilities at their disposal for the storage of archives, web pages, etc?
            I see a fair number of people hosting things against their ISP's TOS which means those sites could disappear at any
            time with little/no warning, and that worries me. 
             
            Here's what I've got available... a business FiOS account.  20/5 Mb/sec.  Right now I've got three Unix servers on-line,
            two of which run web servers.  All machines have static IPs and are fully compliant with my TOS contract.  Some
            machines have hundreds of GBs available, one is a lot smaller.  These are good for storage and basic web servers.
            I can (and do) support virtual domains and mailing lists.  Note that this is now a hobby for me (I used to own/manage
            and ISP), so do not expect business class services.   If you want some special software installed, you'll have to do
            it yourself or go without.  Daily and weekly backups are done.
             
            I'm sure many others on this list have other capabilities that might be useful to store old computer history as well.
             


            Hi - I own the ISP that our web site is hosted, and it's a commercial ISP in Wilmington, degnanco.net.  We host accounts for Dun and Bradstreet, Campbells Soup, Spherion Corp and many others.  We're not a utility company  volume hoster but we do have plenty of storage and bandwidth.  If anyone wants to make available files to the hosting account, provided that the files are legal, let me know directly.  The MARCH BOD will  perform content/legal approval but if appropriate can send me a DVD or CD and I can have one of our network techs copy the files to the server.  We have and will continue to host the midatlanticretro. org hosting for free.  Don't forget that we already have an inventory system online midatlanticretro. org/inventory/ for use by all.

            I have the entire TRS 80 archive 4 DVD set, I also have the complete Chuck Peddle speech.  This thread reminds me to get moving on these projects.

            Bill Degnan
            degnanco.net

            No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/894 - Release Date: 7/10/2007 5:44 PM
          • Bob Applegate
            Well, it s unlikely anyone will have a better situation than Bill s! If we can load our stuff onto his machines (or the club provides one that meets his
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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              Well, it's unlikely anyone will have a better situation than Bill's!  If we can load our stuff onto his machines (or the club provides one that meets his requirements?) without impacting his network and workload, this sounds like an ideal situation.  Please remember that this is an amazing situation, so we have to respect Bill's need to get other stuff done that involves revenue.
               
              Bill, I was General Manager of an ISP from 1994 until I sold it in 2000 and went back to the easy life (working for someone else).  I still have rights to co-locate a server at their facility, but remote management isn't much fun.
               
              Bob
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: B. Degnan
              Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:24 AM
              Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] TRS-80 (and in general hosting an archive)

              At 07:51 AM 7/11/2007 -0400, you wrote:

              Do we want to put out a list of who's got what capabilities at their disposal for the storage of archives, web pages, etc?
              I see a fair number of people hosting things against their ISP's TOS which means those sites could disappear at any
              time with little/no warning, and that worries me. 
               
              Here's what I've got available... a business FiOS account.  20/5 Mb/sec.  Right now I've got three Unix servers on-line,
              two of which run web servers.  All machines have static IPs and are fully compliant with my TOS contract.  Some
              machines have hundreds of GBs available, one is a lot smaller.  These are good for storage and basic web servers.
              I can (and do) support virtual domains and mailing lists.  Note that this is now a hobby for me (I used to own/manage
              and ISP), so do not expect business class services.   If you want some special software installed, you'll have to do
              it yourself or go without.  Daily and weekly backups are done.
               
              I'm sure many others on this list have other capabilities that might be useful to store old computer history as well.
               


              Hi - I own the ISP that our web site is hosted, and it's a commercial ISP in Wilmington, degnanco.net.  We host accounts for Dun and Bradstreet, Campbells Soup, Spherion Corp and many others.  We're not a utility company  volume hoster but we do have plenty of storage and bandwidth.  If anyone wants to make available files to the hosting account, provided that the files are legal, let me know directly.  The MARCH BOD will  perform content/legal approval but if appropriate can send me a DVD or CD and I can have one of our network techs copy the files to the server.  We have and will continue to host the midatlanticretro. org hosting for free.  Don't forget that we already have an inventory system online midatlanticretro. org/inventory/ for use by all.

              I have the entire TRS 80 archive 4 DVD set, I also have the complete Chuck Peddle speech.  This thread reminds me to get moving on these projects.

              Bill Degnan
              degnanco.net

            • B Degnan
              ... Our office is in downtown Wilmington, and our datacenter is a few blocks away in the basement of a private phone company. We used to house the whole thing
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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                >
                > Bill, I was General Manager of an ISP from 1994 until I sold it in 2000
                > and went back to the easy life (working for someone else). I still have
                > rights to co-locate a server at their facility, but remote management
                > isn't much fun.
                >

                Our office is in downtown Wilmington, and our datacenter is a few blocks
                away in the basement of a private phone company. We used to house the
                whole thing in our office, but air conditioning and power requirements
                became too great.

                If anyone wants to host files, mail them to me on DVD or CD:

                Degnan CO
                c/o M.A.R.C.H.
                PO Box 2366
                Wilmington, DE 19899

                I will review them and post those that are relevant, and then announce to
                the group.

                If need be we can install a 250 GB hard drive for hosting just vintage
                computer files, (and perform a daily backup), so that they're kept
                separated from the "regular" network and give us plenty of space. That
                said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.

                Bill
              • Evan Koblentz
                That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable. ... Legal, too, please...
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
                  >
                  > Bill

                  Legal, too, please...
                • relayer
                  That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument. There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of abandonware or orphaned status
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                    That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.

                    There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
                    abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
                    systems.

                    Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                    well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
                    protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
                    the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
                    legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
                    Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.

                    Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
                    these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
                    trouble.

                    Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
                    lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
                    this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
                    majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

                    Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
                    contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
                    officially abandoned.

                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
                    > >
                    > > Bill
                    >
                    > Legal, too, please...
                    >
                  • B Degnan
                    ... There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to handle: 1. What is the definition of vintage computers? 2. Archiving old software
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                      > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
                      >
                      > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
                      > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
                      > systems.
                      >
                      > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                      > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
                      > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
                      > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
                      > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
                      > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
                      >

                      There are two topics that vintage computer groups/lists cannot seem to
                      handle:
                      1. What is the definition of vintage computers?
                      2. Archiving old software - how to make archives available to the public

                      Go with your gut instincts and take action on your own. If you have a
                      good plan, people will follow you.

                      Bill
                    • Ray Sills
                      That s always an issue with old software. One way the software might be able to be legally archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                        That's always an issue with old software. One way the software might
                        be able to be legally
                        archived is simply to get permission from the copyright holders. I
                        had a case one with a
                        software author who decided that his business was going nowhere and
                        that there was no
                        further need to keep his work protected, and he even -released- the
                        software into the
                        public domain.

                        If current copyright holders are dubious about that, all that would
                        be needed to do is to
                        secure a license to archive the material. Perhaps if the copyright
                        holder were assured that
                        the material would simply be archived, the original copyright notice
                        kept in place,and
                        the software would not be modified, sold, and not incorporated into
                        any subsequent work, etc.,
                        then a license for archival use could be obtained. And therefore,
                        the archive would be legal.

                        73 de Ray



                        On Jul 12, 2007, at 7:28 AM, relayer wrote:

                        > That brings up a good point. And a similarly good argument.
                        >
                        > There has long since been, and will continue to be, the concept of
                        > abandonware or orphaned status of the various media for these aging
                        > systems.
                        >
                        > Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                        > well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? If so, I understand the more
                        > protective stance of the legality of the archive. There will still be
                        > the enthusiasts that will never see the stuff disappear, regardless of
                        > legality. As good as the archive was, I'm sure some of the stuff in
                        > Ira's archive fell in gray areas, legally.
                        >
                        > Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
                        > these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
                        > trouble.
                        >
                        > Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
                        > lobbying effort in Washington to lobby for the legality of archiving
                        > this historical media. I'm sure it would be easy to prove that the
                        > majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.
                        >
                        > Even if MARCH cannot lobby Washington, maybe a lesser effort to
                        > contact the publishers of the media to ask them to declare the items
                        > officially abandoned.
                        >
                        > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Koblentz" <evan@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >>
                        >> That said, keep the PDF sizes reasonable.
                        >>>
                        >>> Bill
                        >>
                        >> Legal, too, please...
                        >>
                        >
                      • B Degnan
                        At the University of Delaware, the Educational Use rule seems to cover all materials that are copied and sold as binded books for students. Why would a web
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                          At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
                          all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
                          Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?

                          what is the difference between code and copies?

                          Bill
                        • Hex Star
                          Hello, I already have copies of Ira s archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                            Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow below...

                            Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                            Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                            Username: none needed
                            Password: none needed

                            Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :) ( P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and then press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
                          • Evan Koblentz
                            Yes, we know. Already been discussed.
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                              Yes, we know. Already been discussed.

                              > Hello, I already have copies of Ira's archive and its contents as well as
                              > many other vintage computing files on my server, access details follow
                              > below...
                              >
                              > Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go to
                              > http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                              > Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                              > Username: none needed
                              > Password: none needed
                              >
                              > Just click File Browser on the left hand side once connected and enjoy! :)
                              > (
                              > P.S. You can always find what you want if you have something specific in
                              > mind by searching the files, to do this first open the File Browser and
                              > then
                              > press ctrl+s for PCs or cmd+s on macs)
                              >
                            • Evan Koblentz
                              I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We re not one.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                I believe most major publishers, acting on their own, make specific
                                copyright exceptions for accredited educational institutions. We're not
                                one.



                                > At the University of Delaware, the "Educational Use" rule seems to cover
                                > all materials that are copied and sold as binded "books" for students.
                                > Why would a web site that provides educational/research be any different?
                                >
                                > what is the difference between code and copies?
                                >
                                > Bill
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Evan Koblentz
                                ... well, a MARCH sanctioned venture? Nope. We haven t made any such decision. Which is one reason why the material can t be on our server -- hosting it
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                  >>> Is this proposed archive of TRS-80 stuff, and maybe other systems as
                                  well, a MARCH sanctioned venture?

                                  Nope. We haven't made any such decision. Which is one reason why the
                                  material can't be on our server -- hosting it would imply endorsement.

                                  >>> Personally, I'd like to see MARCH spearhead an effort to preserve
                                  these archives. I also don't want to see the organization get into
                                  trouble.

                                  I agree with both of those statements.

                                  >>> Maybe this topic could be a catalyst for MARCH to possibly start a
                                  lobbying effort in Washington ... I'm sure it would be easy to prove
                                  that the majority of books and software has long since been abandoned.

                                  I like you, but ... are you serious!?!?

                                  >>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                                  declare the items officially abandoned.

                                  One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                                  foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                                  events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                                  our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                                  corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                                  efforts.)
                                • madodel
                                  ... I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from all
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                    Evan Koblentz wrote:

                                    >
                                    >>>> a lesser effort to contact the publishers of the media to ask them to
                                    > declare the items officially abandoned.
                                    >
                                    > One of those time vs. resources things. MARCH's current mission is to:
                                    > foster interactivity among regional collectors, via this forum and our
                                    > events; and to foster public education via the museum. Waaaaay outside of
                                    > our resources and scope to become lobbyists of governments or
                                    > corporations. (Although I'd gladly sign us as a supporter to outside
                                    > efforts.)
                                    >

                                    I was told IBM looked into open sourcing OS/2 source code. Their lawyers
                                    estimated it would cost about $500,000 to track down and get releases from
                                    all the copyright holders who had been contracted to provide code for parts
                                    of the operating system (things like many of the included drivers, fonts,
                                    and other things which were not written 100% by IBM). Many of original
                                    entities were defunct, so tracking down most of the current copyright
                                    holders might have been impossible anyway. So IBM decided that it wasn't
                                    worth the cost. That is what I was told by an IBMer who was in a position
                                    to know. It had nothing to do with Microsoft which is what most people
                                    seem to believe. Also some companies still pay IBM to maintain a line of
                                    OS/2 source code just for them, so even though it is no longer publicly
                                    marketed, it is still bringing in revenue to IBM.

                                    If IBM can't afford the effort I doubt most anyone can. Unless the
                                    software was entirely written by one entity and had no inclusive
                                    copyrighted source from anyone else I don't think this is realistic.
                                    Perhaps some of the really old stuff from the days when software and
                                    manuals were written by a small company or group of developers might be
                                    easy to get a release from, but I would think things like the TRS and Apple
                                    would fall under the same problems as IBM.

                                    Mark


                                    --

                                    From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel

                                    Warpstock 2007 - Toronto, Ontario, Canada: http://www.warpstock.org
                                    Warpstock Europe - http://www.warpstock.net


                                    For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE -
                                    http://www.os2voice.org

                                    "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the
                                    growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their
                                    democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of
                                    government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private
                                    power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly
                                    Investigation, 1938
                                  • Hex Star
                                    ... Hello, if you have stuff you d like to upload so that the whole community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great candidate, simply connect
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                      On 7/11/07, relayer <relayer@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I saw posts about attempts to help rebuild the TRS-80 collection that
                                      > used to be available to people. It was suggested in this group to wait
                                      > till after VCF to raise the subject again. It is now post-VCF.
                                      >
                                      > I've been collecting classic computers since 1996, about the same time
                                      > I discovered emulation. In those many years, I've managed to gather
                                      > stuff together. A bit here and a bit there to allow me to take
                                      > advantage of the fun classic computers have to offer whether it's for
                                      > a real device or through emulation.
                                      >
                                      > Someone mentioned having a server to host files for a reborn TRS-80
                                      > archive. How can I help?
                                      >
                                      > Contact me privately if you wish, but if your replies would benefit
                                      > the MARCH collective, please keep them public.
                                      >


                                      Hello, if you have stuff you'd like to upload so that the whole
                                      community can enjoy the content at any time my server is a great
                                      candidate, simply connect to my server with the following information
                                      then click File Browser on the left hand side, open the Uploads
                                      folder, use the right button menu to create a folder for your files
                                      and use the right click menu to upload your files into that folder.
                                      People will be able to access the uploaded files 24/7 even before I
                                      sort them, so if you want a solution that has the community in mind my
                                      server is the way to go :) ...here are the connection details:

                                      Protocol: KDX (for more information including download links go here:
                                      http://haxial.com/products/kdx/)
                                      Address: kdxvcfa.dyndns.ws
                                      Username: none needed
                                      Password: none needed
                                    • Evan
                                      We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 14, 2007
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                                        We are not (yet) are 501c3 but we are a non-profit corporation in NJ. InfoAge itself already has the 501c3 status and gets its legal services free from the Wall Township attorney. I can look into this further if necessary.

                                        For now may we please table this whole archiving thing?
                                      • Evan
                                        Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
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                                          Our group will NOT be hosting and mass file archives, especially yours.
                                        • Evan
                                          Oops I meant any not and ...
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jul 17, 2007
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                                            Oops I meant "any" not "and" ...
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.