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wanted: IBM Series I display model 4978 (more...)

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  • billdeg@aol.com
    This is a follow up to my earlier email on the IBM Series I. The interface terminal is shot (unless a single horizontal line is normal when the terminal is
    Message 1 of 12 , May 17, 2005
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      This is a follow up to my earlier email on the IBM Series I. The interface
      terminal is shot (unless a single horizontal line is normal when the terminal
      is powered on without being hooked up to a system, I seem to remember that it's
      not :-P )
      So...
      Does anyone in the Philly/Balt. area have a working spare IBM 4978 display
      terminal (EBCDIC)? From documentation on hand it may be possible that any of
      the following terminals will also work with appropriate system attachment
      card(s): IBM 3101, 5250, 5251 (model 1 or 2), 5252 (model 1 only), 4980 (with #1250
      "multidrop work station attachment card"), or maybe a 3161/3163 ASCII display
      station (with RS-422A card). System 36-era terminals in general appear not to
      be compatible (confirmation?).
      -OR-
      Is there a way to hook up an IBM PC w/ monitor to a series I processor?

      I would be happy to trade. I am also searching for local sources like DuPont
      surplus, etc.

      Thanks.
      Bill
    • Jim Scheef
      Bill, What about a regular 3270/3278/3279? If such a terminal would work then a PC with a 3270 adapter card would work as well. This might be easier to find.
      Message 2 of 12 , May 19, 2005
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        Bill,

        What about a "regular" 3270/3278/3279? If such a terminal would work then a
        PC with a 3270 adapter card would work as well. This might be easier to find.
        The only one I can remember right now is the Attachmate 3270. There were a
        few others. Then, of course, you would need the emulator software. For that I
        have a copy of Relay Gold.

        Does the Series 1 use twinax to connect the terminals? If it does, then you
        can forget the 3270.

        Jim


        --- billdeg@... wrote:
        > This is a follow up to my earlier email on the IBM Series I. The interface
        >
        > terminal is shot (unless a single horizontal line is normal when the
        > terminal
        > is powered on without being hooked up to a system, I seem to remember that
        > it's
        > not :-P )
        > So...
        > Does anyone in the Philly/Balt. area have a working spare IBM 4978 display
        > terminal (EBCDIC)? From documentation on hand it may be possible that any
        > of
        > the following terminals will also work with appropriate system attachment
        > card(s): IBM 3101, 5250, 5251 (model 1 or 2), 5252 (model 1 only), 4980
        > (with #1250
        > "multidrop work station attachment card"), or maybe a 3161/3163 ASCII
        > display
        > station (with RS-422A card). System 36-era terminals in general appear not
        > to
        > be compatible (confirmation?).
        > -OR-
        > Is there a way to hook up an IBM PC w/ monitor to a series I processor?
        >
        > I would be happy to trade. I am also searching for local sources like
        > DuPont
        > surplus, etc.
        >
        > Thanks.
        > Bill
        >
      • Kelly Leavitt
        If that would work, I have several Memorex 3270 cards for you Bill. The amount of Junk in my basement is amazing!! ... work then a ... easier to find. ...
        Message 3 of 12 , May 19, 2005
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          If that would work, I have several Memorex 3270 cards for you Bill.
          The amount of "Junk" in my basement is amazing!!

          --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Jim Scheef <jscheef@y...>
          wrote:
          > Bill,
          >
          > What about a "regular" 3270/3278/3279? If such a terminal would
          work then a
          > PC with a 3270 adapter card would work as well. This might be
          easier to find.
          > The only one I can remember right now is the Attachmate 3270. There
          were a
          > few others. Then, of course, you would need the emulator software.
          For that I
          > have a copy of Relay Gold.
          >
          > Does the Series 1 use twinax to connect the terminals? If it does,
          then you
          > can forget the 3270.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          > --- billdeg@a... wrote:
          > > This is a follow up to my earlier email on the IBM Series I. The
          interface
          > >
          > > terminal is shot (unless a single horizontal line is normal when
          the
          > > terminal
          > > is powered on without being hooked up to a system, I seem to
          remember that
          > > it's
          > > not :-P )
          > > So...
          > > Does anyone in the Philly/Balt. area have a working spare IBM
          4978 display
          > > terminal (EBCDIC)? From documentation on hand it may be possible
          that any
          > > of
          > > the following terminals will also work with appropriate system
          attachment
          > > card(s): IBM 3101, 5250, 5251 (model 1 or 2), 5252 (model 1
          only), 4980
          > > (with #1250
          > > "multidrop work station attachment card"), or maybe a 3161/3163
          ASCII
          > > display
          > > station (with RS-422A card). System 36-era terminals in general
          appear not
          > > to
          > > be compatible (confirmation?).
          > > -OR-
          > > Is there a way to hook up an IBM PC w/ monitor to a series I
          processor?
          > >
          > > I would be happy to trade. I am also searching for local sources
          like
          > > DuPont
          > > surplus, etc.
          > >
          > > Thanks.
          > > Bill
          > >
        • billdeg@aol.com
          Kelly, If I can use a 3270 card on a PC/XT that would be preferred. What kind of jack do these have? female 25-pin? Bill
          Message 4 of 12 , May 19, 2005
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            Kelly,
            If I can use a 3270 card on a PC/XT that would be preferred. What kind of jack do these have?  female 25-pin?
            Bill
          • Jim Scheef
            Bill, I asked if a 3270 would work because I knew it would be easy to emulate, but I don t *know* if it will work with a Series 1. Has anyone actually
            Message 5 of 12 , May 19, 2005
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              Bill,

               

              I asked if a 3270 would work because I knew it would be easy to emulate, but I don’t *know* if it will work with a Series 1. Has anyone actually determined this for sure?

               

              Jim

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kelly Leavitt
              Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:55 PM
              To: 'midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com'
              Subject: RE: [midatlanticretro] Re: wanted: IBM Series I display model 4978 (more...)

               

              Bill:

                It is an 8-Bit ISA card with a BNC coax connector. From what I can find, it is a 3270 emulation board for WINDOWS (3.1 or WFWG). I can't find ANY information on these cards. I think I have 4 of them around here. If you need it, or want it, just let me know. I'll trade you postage for some of the 3/4 parts you have around, or some of the disks for the II/16/12/6000 series.

               

              Kelly

              -----Original Message-----
              From: billdeg@... [mailto:billdeg@...]
              Sent:
              Thursday, May 19, 2005 6:21 PM
              To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] Re: wanted: IBM Series I display model 4978 (more...)

              Kelly,

              If I can use a 3270 card on a PC/XT that would be preferred. What kind of jack do these have?  female 25-pin?

              Bill

            • billdeg@aol.com
              Jim, I still have a lot to learn, and I may retract my statements later...but... I looked through every Series I manual I have (which is a lot) and there are
              Message 6 of 12 , May 20, 2005
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                Jim,

                I still have a lot to learn, and I may retract my statements later...but...

                I looked through every Series I manual I have (which is a lot) and there are
                no references to the 3270 emulation. There was a special IBM PC that I never
                saw before that seems to be made just for the Series I, and I also have
                pictures that show a IBM PC as an "Entry-level Series 1 System"...so there must be a
                way. I just don't think it's with 3270.

                I believe 3270 was more of a system 36-era (newer) software. It may have
                also worked with the AS/400. I have a contact from IBM that used to sell the
                Series I's, I will ask him because I am not 100% sure. I have limited
                System34/36 docs.

                Series 1's were before my time. I started at IBM in 1987. At the time I
                worked on System 36's and 9370's, but mostly the new and exciting PS/2 model's
                30/50/70.

                My contact from IBM told me that when they sold and installed a Series 1,
                they ran out of the building before something could happen, because these systems
                were always so customized and the sales reps really didn't know a lot about
                them to answer questions.

                In short, there may have been a special card just for the 5150 PC to
                interface with the Series 1. Practically every terminal referenced in the Series 1
                docs had a specific terminal interface card just for that model. There is a
                page that maps the terminal with the terminal interface card for reference.

                One other thing...the 4978 I have (it's not working) does have a twin co-ax
                cable, but it was modified to connect directly to the processor with a hacked
                jack soldered to to what was the twin co-ax end. I frankly don't know exactly
                how to plug it in!

                I am still learning.

                bd

                In a message dated 5/19/2005 10:36:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                jscheef@... writes:

                > Bill,
                >
                > I asked if a 3270 would work because I knew it would be easy to emulate,
                > but I don't *know* if it will work with a Series 1. Has anyone actually
                > determined this for sure?
                >
                > Jim
              • Christian R. Fandt
                Upon the date 08:30 20-05-05, billdeg@aol.com said something like: Bill, You say you worked on 9370s? I ve got one in my collection. Do you know/recall much
                Message 7 of 12 , May 20, 2005
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                  Upon the date 08:30 20-05-05, billdeg@... said something like:

                  Bill,

                  You say you worked on 9370s? I've got one in my collection. Do you
                  know/recall much about the system (both h/w & s/w)?

                  Thanks for any info/memories you may provide.

                  Regards, Chris F.

                  NNNN

                  >Series 1's were before my time. I started at IBM in 1987. At the time I
                  >worked on System 36's and 9370's, but mostly the new and exciting PS/2
                  >model's
                  >30/50/70.

                  -- snip --


                  Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian
                  Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@...
                  Member of Antique Wireless Association
                  URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/
                • billdeg@aol.com
                  Chris, Hardware-wise I did patch panel work mostly, as in Bill this or that room needs a terminal for access to the 9370 in room X ...I know more software
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 21, 2005
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                    Chris,
                    Hardware-wise I did patch panel work mostly, as in "Bill this or that room
                    needs a terminal for access to the 9370 in room X" ...I know more software than
                    hardware. DId it have a TSO-type interface to access JCL jobs that call COBOL
                    procs, that sort of thing? Did it run PROFS email? I was a college intern
                    at the time, I mostly helped with product demonstrations and set ups. I did
                    not program on the 9370.
                    Bill

                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > You say you worked on 9370s? I've got one in my collection. Do you
                    > know/recall much about the system (both h/w & s/w)?
                    >
                    > Thanks for any info/memories you may provide.
                    >
                    > Regards, Chris F.
                    >
                    > NNNN
                  • Jim Scheef
                    Bill, I mentioned 3270 as a possibility because I knew that 3270 emulators are easy to find; but so are emulators for oter IBM terminals if you dig. AFAIK, the
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 23, 2005
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                      Bill,

                      I mentioned 3270 as a possibility because I knew that 3270 emulators are easy
                      to find; but so are emulators for oter IBM terminals if you dig.

                      AFAIK, the Series/1 was an animal unto itself so if it used a special
                      terminal, that terminal will be hard to find. I believe that various Series 1
                      models were produced over a 10 year period, maybe more.

                      The System 34/36/38/AS400 was a separate line from the Series/1. The basic
                      terminal was the 5250 which connected using 'twinax' - a special coax with 2
                      inner conductors. If the Series 1 has twinax connectors, they would be easy
                      to spot - a nickel-sized threaded coax socket with two female center
                      connectors.

                      The 327x (3270/3278/3278/etc.) was a mainframe terminal that connected using
                      'regular' coax. The connector was a BNC just like thin ethernet.

                      Both the 'System' line and 370/390 mainframes could be connected to a Token
                      Ring LAN using suitable hardware and software. On a mainframe this could be a
                      channel adapter or a special terminal controller (3274?). Later AS400's would
                      use an expansion card similar to a PC.

                      What terminals are mentioned in the documentation?

                      The WikiPedia has a uselessly short entry for the Series/1: "The IBM Series/1
                      computer was a miniature mainframe that used Event Driven Language (EDL) to
                      control and operate external electro-mechanical components while also
                      allowing for primitive data storage and handling. A "technologically
                      advanced" Series/1 operated at 50-100 MHz with 1 Megabyte of memory." This
                      confirms my impression that the Series/1 was used as a controller.

                      I also found an emulator at http://www.emulation.net/series1/.

                      Unfortunately neither are any help on the terminal issue.

                      Jim



                      --- billdeg@... wrote:
                      > Jim,
                      >
                      > I still have a lot to learn, and I may retract my statements later...but...
                      >
                      > I looked through every Series I manual I have (which is a lot) and there
                      > are
                      > no references to the 3270 emulation. There was a special IBM PC that I
                      > never
                      > saw before that seems to be made just for the Series I, and I also have
                      > pictures that show a IBM PC as an "Entry-level Series 1 System"...so there
                      > must be a
                      > way. I just don't think it's with 3270.
                      >
                      > I believe 3270 was more of a system 36-era (newer) software. It may have
                      > also worked with the AS/400. I have a contact from IBM that used to sell
                      > the
                      > Series I's, I will ask him because I am not 100% sure. I have limited
                      > System34/36 docs.
                      >
                      > Series 1's were before my time. I started at IBM in 1987. At the time I
                      > worked on System 36's and 9370's, but mostly the new and exciting PS/2
                      > model's
                      > 30/50/70.
                      >
                      > My contact from IBM told me that when they sold and installed a Series 1,
                      > they ran out of the building before something could happen, because these
                      > systems
                      > were always so customized and the sales reps really didn't know a lot about
                      >
                      > them to answer questions.
                      >
                      > In short, there may have been a special card just for the 5150 PC to
                      > interface with the Series 1. Practically every terminal referenced in the
                      > Series 1
                      > docs had a specific terminal interface card just for that model. There is
                      > a
                      > page that maps the terminal with the terminal interface card for reference.
                      >
                      > One other thing...the 4978 I have (it's not working) does have a twin co-ax
                      >
                      > cable, but it was modified to connect directly to the processor with a
                      > hacked
                      > jack soldered to to what was the twin co-ax end. I frankly don't know
                      > exactly
                      > how to plug it in!
                      >
                      > I am still learning.
                      >
                      > bd
                      >
                      > In a message dated 5/19/2005 10:36:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                      > jscheef@... writes:
                      >
                      > > Bill,
                      > >
                      > > I asked if a 3270 would work because I knew it would be easy to emulate,
                      > > but I don't *know* if it will work with a Series 1. Has anyone actually
                      > > determined this for sure?
                      > >
                      > > Jim
                      >
                    • billdeg@aol.com
                      Jim, The terminal connectors on the Series I in my possesion have jacks which appear like male 25-pin serial connectors which are fitted in turn with
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 23, 2005
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                        Jim,
                        The terminal connectors on the Series I in my possesion have jacks which appear like male 25-pin serial connectors which are fitted in turn with ethernet-looking connectors.  From me ory I believe the first 8 pins on top and a few on the bottom. 
                         
                        I took written notes on all compatible terminals that I found in the documentation, and I will post it asap. 
                         
                        It would be great if I could just use any old serial terminal.  I should just give it a try...why not?
                         
                        Bill
                      • Jim Scheef
                        Bill, Some of the stuff I found when I did a search on ibm series/1 did imply that a serial terminal would work. IBM calls it an asynchronous terminal .
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 23, 2005
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                          Bill,

                          Some of the stuff I found when I did a search on 'ibm series/1' did imply
                          that a serial terminal would work. IBM calls it an "asynchronous terminal".
                          Next question is back to one of my early questions about ASCII vs EBCDIC. Are
                          you sure this thing uses EBCDIC? ASCII would sure make things easier!

                          Jim


                          --- billdeg@... wrote:
                          > Jim,
                          > The terminal connectors on the Series I in my possesion have jacks which
                          > appear like male 25-pin serial connectors which are fitted in turn with
                          > ethernet-looking connectors. From me ory I believe the first 8 pins on top
                          > and a few
                          > on the bottom.
                          >
                          > I took written notes on all compatible terminals that I found in the
                          > documentation, and I will post it asap.
                          >
                          > It would be great if I could just use any old serial terminal. I should
                          > just give it a try...why not?
                          >
                          > Bill
                          >
                        • billdeg@aol.com
                          I know that the 4978 is EBCDIC, most terminals referenced in the Series I documentation are also. It should be possible to mimic the EBCDIC with an emulator
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 23, 2005
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                            I know that the 4978 is EBCDIC, most terminals referenced in the Series I
                            documentation are also. It should be possible to mimic the EBCDIC with an
                            emulator of some sort. There are a lot of special keys on the keyboard that comes
                            with the 4978 as well.
                            Bill

                            In a message dated 5/23/2005 7:08:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                            jscheef@... writes:

                            > Bill,
                            >
                            > Some of the stuff I found when I did a search on 'ibm series/1' did imply
                            > that a serial terminal would work. IBM calls it an "asynchronous terminal".
                            > Next question is back to one of my early questions about ASCII vs EBCDIC.
                            > Are
                            > you sure this thing uses EBCDIC? ASCII would sure make things easier!
                            >
                            > Jim
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