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Re: [midatlanticretro] My KIM-1 Computer

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  • Bob Applegate
    I ve got two KIMs running, and have even sold a fair number of expansion boards in the last few months... there are lots of KIMs still in operation! Saving
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 13, 2007
      I've got two KIMs running, and have even sold a fair number of
      expansion boards in the last few months... there are lots of
      KIMs still in operation!

      Saving audio to the computer seems like a good idea until you
      do the math... a 1K program takes a lot of room on a disk when
      converted to a WAV or some other file format. I did this for a
      while, then decided it was easier to just put the source into
      my PC clone, assemble the programs, then download just the
      object file using a little program I wrote to convert the output
      from TASM to the KIM TTY format.

      Various KIM related things are at my site, although it's just
      stuff I did, not links to other common sites:

      http://www.k2ut.org/kim.htm

      Bob



      Rkushnier <rkushnier@...> wrote :

      > I've been in contact with Vern Graner on his, KIM-1 Enthusiasts Page http://www.kim-1.com/One interesting idea that came across was to record the old audiocassettes with KIM programs, into MP3 files and publishing them on the WEB. The KIM originally used a low-end Phillips cassette recorder to store programs onto audio formatted tapes. Back then, in 1976 or so, we were not thinking so much about copyrighting or selling the software we developed (you mean people would pay money for this stuff!!! :-) No, it was more like "Users Helping Users", and everyone shared in the goodies produced.I pulled down my original KIM-1, and took up the challenge. If anyone knows, if going from KIM audio to MP3 or WAV has been tried before, please let me know so I can proceed, or not waste my time.My KIM still works! And, even more amazing, the old cassettes that had been stored up in the attic for 30 years still turned and produced data!Now, I must commiserate with Evan and Mike, who recent!
      ly worked on their old machines trying to get them up and running. These old machines, my KIM included, are like old Model T Fords. Look at them the wrong way, and you are left with a pile of rusted dust. Sometime or other, they really do belong in a museum (hint! hint!).Unlike a Model T, where, if a fender "goes South", another can be made in a machine shop, our electronics come out of a small "Window in Time". Radio Shack no longer sells replacement TTL & CMOS chips. Parts must be scrounged from other machines of the same era. It's getting tougher to open that "Time Window"!I've started a "Baby Book" of KIM photos in our Forum's Photo Section, and will be adding and commenting more.Regards,Ron
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      ___________________________________
      NOCC, http://nocc.sourceforge.net
    • rkushnier
      Oh Well! MP3 files are a mute point. Apparently, KIM doesn t like my tape recorder, or there s a problem with Kim s cassette interface. The computer never
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 16, 2007
        Oh Well! MP3 files are a mute point.

        Apparently, KIM doesn't like my tape recorder, or there's a problem
        with Kim's cassette interface. The computer never finds the data
        tones.

        I'm able to key in and run programs from the keyboard. I had
        forgotten that MOS Technology hadn't quite yet figured out how to
        prevent "Switch Bounce" when they designed the KIM keyboard.

        I tried several cassette utilities outlined in "The First Book of
        KIM", and it looks like the PLL is working, and data is coming in,
        but, in the end, NO-GO. The display never comes back to life. Anyone
        remember if I need to set some vector interrupts or something? I seem
        to remember the KIM's cassette interface was pretty liberal as far as
        qualitity of tape recorders went.

        I may have another donation for the museum. :-)

        Ron



        --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "rkushnier" <rkushnier@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I've been in contact with Vern Graner on his, KIM-1  Enthusiasts
        > Page
        > http://www.kim-1.com/
        >
        > One interesting idea that came across was to record the old
        > audiocassettes with KIM programs, into MP3 files and publishing them
        > on the WEB. The KIM originally used a low-end Phillips cassette
        > recorder to store programs onto audio formatted tapes.
        >
        > Back then, in 1976 or so, we were not thinking so much about
        > copyrighting or selling the software we developed (you mean people
        > would pay money for this stuff!!! :-) No, it was more like "Users
        > Helping Users", and everyone shared in the goodies produced.
        >
        > I pulled down my original KIM-1, and took up the challenge. If
        > anyone knows, if going from KIM audio to MP3 or WAV has been tried
        > before, please let me know so I can proceed, or not waste my time.
        >
        > My KIM still works! And, even more amazing, the old cassettes that
        > had been stored up in the attic for 30 years still turned and
        > produced data!
        >
        > Now, I must commiserate with Evan and Mike, who recently worked on
        > their old machines trying to get them up and running. These old
        > machines, my KIM included, are like old Model T Fords. Look at them
        > the wrong way, and you are left with a pile of rusted dust. Sometime
        > or other, they really do belong in a museum (hint! hint!).
        >
        > Unlike a Model T, where, if a fender "goes South", another can
        > be
        > made in a machine shop, our electronics come out of a small "Window
        > in
        > Time". Radio Shack no longer sells replacement TTL & CMOS chips.
        > Parts must be scrounged from other machines of the same era. It's
        > getting tougher to open that "Time Window"!
        >
        > I've started a "Baby Book" of KIM photos in our Forum's Photo
        > Section, and will be adding and commenting more.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Ron
        >
      • Bob Applegate
        I don t have my First Book Of Kim here at the office, but there is a program to adjust the PLL. If you can t get any luck with that, then a scope might be
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 17, 2007
          I don't have my First Book Of Kim here at the office, but there is a program to
          adjust the PLL.  If you can't get any luck with that, then a scope might be handy
          to verify the output signals, look at what's being sent to the digital input, etc.
           
          To record (and maybe retrieve) from tape, you had to clear decimal mode.  Right
          off I don't remember the key sequence.
           
          If you've got switch bounce, then your keys are in bad shape.  The normal KIM
          switches work great; my two 30 year old units work fine.  There were some
          articles on how to disassemble and clean them.  Try a good search on the web
          and I'm sure you'll find some suggestions.
           
          Just because the tape isn't work is no reason to give up.  It's pretty simple
          circuitry to fix.
           
          Bob
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: rkushnier
          Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:25 PM
          Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: My KIM-1 Computer

          Oh Well! MP3 files are a mute point.

          Apparently, KIM doesn't like my tape recorder, or there's a problem
          with Kim's cassette interface. The computer never finds the data
          tones.

          I'm able to key in and run programs from the keyboard. I had
          forgotten that MOS Technology hadn't quite yet figured out how to
          prevent "Switch Bounce" when they designed the KIM keyboard.

          I tried several cassette utilities outlined in "The First Book of
          KIM", and it looks like the PLL is working, and data is coming in,
          but, in the end, NO-GO. The display never comes back to life. Anyone
          remember if I need to set some vector interrupts or something? I seem
          to remember the KIM's cassette interface was pretty liberal as far as
          qualitity of tape recorders went.

          I may have another donation for the museum. :-)

          Ron

          --- In midatlanticretro@ yahoogroups. com, "rkushnier" <rkushnier@. ..>
          wrote:
          >
          > I've been in contact with Vern Graner on his, KIM-1  Enthusiasts
          > Page
          > http://www.kim- 1.com/
          >
          > One interesting idea that came across was to record the old
          > audiocassettes with KIM programs, into MP3 files and publishing them
          > on the WEB. The KIM originally used a low-end Phillips cassette
          > recorder to store programs onto audio formatted tapes.
          >
          > Back then, in 1976 or so, we were not thinking so much about
          > copyrighting or selling the software we developed (you mean people
          > would pay money for this stuff!!! :-) No, it was more like "Users
          > Helping Users", and everyone shared in the goodies produced.
          >
          > I pulled down my original KIM-1, and took up the challenge. If
          > anyone knows, if going from KIM audio to MP3 or WAV has been tried
          > before, please let me know so I can proceed, or not waste my time.
          >
          > My KIM still works! And, even more amazing, the old cassettes that
          > had been stored up in the attic for 30 years still turned and
          > produced data!
          >
          > Now, I must commiserate with Evan and Mike, who recently worked on
          > their old machines trying to get them up and running. These old
          > machines, my KIM included, are like old Model T Fords. Look at them
          > the wrong way, and you are left with a pile of rusted dust. Sometime
          > or other, they really do belong in a museum (hint! hint!).
          >
          > Unlike a Model T, where, if a fender "goes South", another can
          > be
          > made in a machine shop, our electronics come out of a small "Window
          > in
          > Time". Radio Shack no longer sells replacement TTL & CMOS chips.
          > Parts must be scrounged from other machines of the same era. It's
          > getting tougher to open that "Time Window"!
          >
          > I've started a "Baby Book" of KIM photos in our Forum's Photo
          > Section, and will be adding and commenting more.
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Ron
          >

        • rkushnier
          Bob, Thanks for the suggestions. It s all coming back to me now... I think I need to clear the Status Register by putting 00 in 00F1 and the NMI termination
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 18, 2007
            Bob,
            Thanks for the suggestions. It's all coming back to me now...
            I think I need to clear the Status Register by putting "00" in 00F1
            and the NMI termination vector Interrupt 1C00 in 17FA,17FB. I'll give
            that a try when I have some time.

            As far as the switch bounce, I recall the original MOS Technology
            Kims did have a problem with the keyboards, and in fact there was a
            hardware modification to help correct it.

            Thanks again , and Long Live the KIM!

            Ron



            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Applegate" <bob@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I don't have my First Book Of Kim here at the office, but there is
            a program to
            > adjust the PLL. If you can't get any luck with that, then a scope
            might be handy
            > to verify the output signals, look at what's being sent to the
            digital input, etc.
            >
            > To record (and maybe retrieve) from tape, you had to clear decimal
            mode. Right
            > off I don't remember the key sequence.
            >
            > If you've got switch bounce, then your keys are in bad shape. The
            normal KIM
            > switches work great; my two 30 year old units work fine. There
            were some
            > articles on how to disassemble and clean them. Try a good search
            on the web
            > and I'm sure you'll find some suggestions.
            >
            > Just because the tape isn't work is no reason to give up. It's
            pretty simple
            > circuitry to fix.
            >
            > Bob
          • us21090
            Ron, Comments in-line... ... [...] ... mode. Right ... [...] ... For recording or playback you need to clear the decimal mode setting location 00F1 to 0. The
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 18, 2007
              Ron,

              Comments in-line...

              --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Applegate" <bob@...> wrote:
              [...]
              > To record (and maybe retrieve) from tape, you had to clear decimal
              mode. Right
              > off I don't remember the key sequence.>
              [...]
              > Bob

              For recording or playback you need to clear the decimal mode setting
              location 00F1 to 0. The key sequence:
              [AD] [0] [0] [F] [1]
              [DA] [0] [0]

              BTW, this is is according to the MOS Kim-1 Hints Guide, item 8. One
              copy:
              http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/kim1/kim1_hints.txt
              Item 9 talks about other cassette troubleshooting suggestions.

              You've probably done this, but if you haven't also see section "4.2
              USING THE AUDIO TAPE RECORDER" in the MOS Kim-1 Users Guide. An
              online copy:
              http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/kim1/kim1_users_guide.txt

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rkushnier
              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:25 PM
              > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: My KIM-1 Computer
              >
              >
              > Oh Well! MP3 files are a mute point.
              >
              > Apparently, KIM doesn't like my tape recorder, or there's a problem
              > with Kim's cassette interface. The computer never finds the data
              > tones.
              >
              > I'm able to key in and run programs from the keyboard. I had
              > forgotten that MOS Technology hadn't quite yet figured out how to
              > prevent "Switch Bounce" when they designed the KIM keyboard.
              >
              > I tried several cassette utilities outlined in "The First Book of
              > KIM", and it looks like the PLL is working, and data is coming in,
              > but, in the end, NO-GO. The display never comes back to life. Anyone
              > remember if I need to set some vector interrupts or something?


              Summarizing from the Users Guide (again in section 4.2):

              * Clear decimal mode by entering 00 in location 00F1.

              * Define the ID number of the data block to be loaded from tape. Load
              ID number into address 17F9. If you specify an ID = 00, the ID number
              recorded on the tape will be ignored and the system will read the
              first valid data block encountered on the tape. The data read from
              the tape will be loaded into memory address as specified on the tape.
              Specifying an ID = FF is similar to ID = 00 except that the data
              block will be loaded into successive memory locations beginning at the
              address specified in locations 17F5 and 17F6 (SAL, SAH) instead of the
              locations specified on the tape.

              * Select the starting address of the Tape Load program. This address
              is l873 HEX.

              * Press the [GO] key. The KIM-1 system is now waiting for the
              appearance of data from the tape unit.

              * Load the cassette and, presuming you do not know where on the tape
              the data block is recorded, rewind the tape to its starting position.
              Check the volume control setting.

              * Start the audio tape unit in its Play mode and observe that the tape
              begins to move.

              * Wait for the KIM-1 display to relight showing 0000 xx. This means
              the data block has been loaded successfully from the tape into the
              KIM-1 memory. If the display relights with FFFF xx, the correct data
              block has been found but there has been an error detected during the
              read operation. If the tape continues to run and the display never
              relights, the system has not been successful in finding the data block
              with the specific ID number you requested.


              Scott Austin
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