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Re: [midatlanticretro] OT: editing posts

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  • Jim Scheef
    Herb, If you are using the daily digest, you have my gratitude for editing out the superflous content and changing the subject line to match the thread. Way to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 6, 2006
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      Herb,

      If you are using the daily digest, you have my gratitude for editing out the superflous content and changing the subject line to match the thread. Way to go. However, using the daily digest is your choice. I just perused the membership list and was surprised by the number of people receiving no emails. About six of 130 receive the digest. Personally I stay away from the Yahoo Groups web site as much as possible - going there only to do group business (I was a wizop on CompuServe for ten years and my moderating habits die hard) but that's the only reason I can see to go there. (Ok, the pictures can be fun.) Thankfully most people reply at the top of each message so I see all the earlier stuff only when I scroll down to check a point from an earlier post. When everyone replies at the top, each message is a synopsis of the thread even if someone changed the subject line.

      So, my solution to your 'problem' is to not use the daily digest and to receive individual emails. Set up a filter in your email client to move all incoming messages from the group to a special folder. That way they do not clutter your inbox and are nicely organized for sorting on date , subject or sender. As I read thru the messages I delete most unless there is content to which I might want to refer later, like a URL. Plus I can search these messages using Yahoo's search. I find Yahoo email to be very convenient and with 2G of online storage, I can keep all the messages I want. After a couple years of saving lots of junk, I'm still using only 15% of the 2G.

      As to being too 20th century, I miss using Tapcis to download messages from the 15-20 forums I used to follow on Compuserve. One key stroke was all it took to connect to the service, collect all the waiting messages and download the new message headers from all of my favorite fora and log off again. That way you could review things off line. Remember when connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about $23/hour (~38¢ per minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars. What the service offered was a great online community interfaced thru fabulous forum software with really good message threading. The threading was so good that the only quoting needed was a few words for emphasis. All of the various third-party tools, like Tapcis, used the threading to manage and display messages. Even when they moved to a web-based user interface they still had the best threading. Unfortuntely the by the time AOL bought CIS, the CIS forum software was way better than what AOL had and that was not a politically tenable position. So AOL management did their best to kill off Compuserve to eliminate any possibility it might threaten the core of AOL. Ah, the good old days...

      Jim

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Herb Johnson <hjohnson@...>
      To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2006 12:11:15 PM
      Subject: [midatlanticretro] OT: editing posts

      I'm getting confused by posts in reply which contain too much prior
      posting. I have comments and my preferences below; I'd welcome any
      comments that offer other preferences or explanations.

      Case in point is the discussion about the August trip to Boston.
      Posted messages are two, three messages "deep" with both recent and
      earlier information. Messages in reply add to the depth. So in my
      daily digest of several messages, I see the same post two, three, four
      times in succession.

      Whether I'm using the digest, or using the Yahoo! Groups access Web
      page, I have this little window of 10, 20 lines of text. I have to
      roll around these messages to look for clues by date stamp or >> marks
      to sort out what is new, what I might reply to.

      My posting policy is to EDIT. Zero in on what I'm replying to and who
      said it, top my reply with that, and respond accordingly. At the very
      least, I remove replies to replies. Anyone who needs more context can
      refer to their message archives, or go to the Yahoo! Groups page
      archives. Time I take to edit, I figure, saves time for my friends in
      reading and sorting.

      I appreciate it's tough to use email for planning and extended
      discussion. For long term information, we have on Yahoo! a "database"
      section that could be used quickly, maybe that "calendar" section too.
      Of course our Web site can hold firmer plans if they are for the
      public, unless a "members only" section is added - many of the events
      in dicussion are members only. But it's good to have the "public" get
      a clue as to our activites on the Web site, it's our primary
      promotional tool.

      Some of that is policy stuff, it's up to the MARCH leadership. And all
      of this is just part of the growing process, I have no complaints
      overall. But as traffic and activity increases, it's harder to follow
      the discussion quickly when I have to wade through posts
      three-messages- deep. I think it's reasonable to consider if copying
      all those messages is necessary. But maybe that's just me, being too
      20th century.

      Herb Johnson

      Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
      <a href="http://retrotechnol ogy.com/herbs_ stuff/"> web site</a>
      <a href="http://retrotechnol ogy.net/herbs_ stuff/"> domain mirror</a>
      my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
      if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
      "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
      S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


    • Sridhar Ayengar
      ... I have fond memories of my $150/month Compuserve habit. 8-) Peace... Sridhar
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 6, 2006
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        Jim Scheef wrote:
        > connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about $23/hour (~38¢ per
        > minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars. What the service

        I have fond memories of my $150/month Compuserve habit. 8-)

        Peace... Sridhar
      • Bryan Pope
        ... arrgh... I don t!! :( But near the end of my time there (and I don t think it was ever fixed) a way found to get *free* CServe service. All you had to do
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 6, 2006
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          Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
          Jim Scheef wrote:
            
          connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about $23/hour (~38¢ per 
          minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars. What the service 
              
          I have fond memories of my $150/month Compuserve habit.  8-)
          
          Peace...  Sridhar
          
            
          arrgh... I don't!! :(  But near the end of my time there (and I don't think it was ever fixed) a way found to get *free* CServe service.  All you had to do was have one of your CServe windows open to one of their "free" rooms and it would cancel out your time connected to a regular room.*

          Cheers,

          Bryan


          * Of course I *never* used that technique...  I only heard about it in hushed whispers...

        • Sridhar Ayengar
          ... I think I had heard something about that, but I don t think I ever tried it. ... *ahem* Of course. 8;-) Peace... Sridhar
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 6, 2006
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            Bryan Pope wrote:
            > Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
            >> Jim Scheef wrote:
            >>
            >>> connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about $23/hour (~38¢ per
            >>> minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars. What the service
            >>>
            >>
            >> I have fond memories of my $150/month Compuserve habit. 8-)
            >>
            >> Peace... Sridhar
            >>
            >>
            > arrgh... I don't!! :( But near the end of my time there (and I don't
            > think it was ever fixed) a way found to get *free* CServe service. All
            > you had to do was have one of your CServe windows open to one of their
            > "free" rooms and it would cancel out your time connected to a regular room.*

            I think I had heard something about that, but I don't think I ever tried it.

            > * Of course I *never* used that technique... I only heard about it in
            > hushed whispers...

            *ahem* Of course. 8;-)

            Peace... Sridhar
          • Jim Scheef
            Brian, You re one of the exceptions to the reply at the top convention. There were several bugs in CompuServe s billing as multi-tasking environments became
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 8, 2006
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              Brian,

              You're one of the exceptions to the 'reply at the top' convention.

              There were several bugs in CompuServe's billing as multi-tasking environments
              became popular, creating the situation you describe. Their initial Windows
              programs had limited features for working offline. They wanted users to
              switch to "New CompuServe" (CIS2? I forget what they called it) to get people
              onto the AOL dialup network which for some reason was incompatible with what
              became known as CompuServe Classic. All the sysop tools remained on Classic
              so I never tried the "AOL-ish" user interface which I believe had different
              billing bugs from those on the Classic side.

              The various scripting programs like TapCIS did a great job of minimizing
              connect time. Most people who switched to TapCIS found that their bill
              dropped so much that they could "afford" to visit and follow more fora
              (forums). Of course all this became moot when AOL and CIS followed the
              industry to the "all you can eat" model we have today.

              BYW, our Congresspeople are about to undo this and more on the Internet when
              they "deregulate" the telecom companies so they can charge you more for
              packets they decide are not in their best interests.

              Jim


              --- Bryan Pope <bryan.pope@...> wrote:

              > Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
              > > Jim Scheef wrote:
              > >
              > >> connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about $23/hour (~38¢ per
              > >> minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars. What the service
              > >>
              > >
              > > I have fond memories of my $150/month Compuserve habit. 8-)
              > >
              > > Peace... Sridhar
              > >
              > >
              > arrgh... I don't!! :( But near the end of my time there (and I don't
              > think it was ever fixed) a way found to get *free* CServe service. All
              > you had to do was have one of your CServe windows open to one of their
              > "free" rooms and it would cancel out your time connected to a regular
              > room.*
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Bryan
              >
              >
              > * Of course I *never* used that technique... I only heard about it in
              > hushed whispers...
              >
              >
            • Herb Johnson
              OK, just for fun I ll reply by top-posting and I won t edit out the messages before. I m replying to Jim s post below, so my responses are to Jim. He thinks my
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 10, 2006
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                OK, just for fun I'll reply by top-posting and I won't edit out the
                messages before. I'm replying to Jim's post below, so my responses are
                to Jim. He thinks my problem is about digests; it's really about
                posting styles. But my core issue may be about the use of forums.
                CLearly it's just me, no one else has complained, so I won't persue
                this further except to reply here.

                First, Jim, I don't reply by editing a message out of the daily
                digest. I reply by logging into Yahoo! online and pulling out the
                individual message, and then open a window there. I read the digest to
                see if there are any messages I need to reply to each day. If I was a
                more active member, I'd need to get individual messages.

                I concur with you that editing a message from the daily digest for
                reply would be painful. Going to the Yahoo! site avoids that, and it's
                not much different from editing a reply via my own email client. In
                fact, I'm writing THIS reply using a text editor and I'll simply cut
                and paste it into Yahoo!'s edit window. ("Simple" was in fact not the
                case, my cut-n-paste required removing all the linefeeds! ;( )

                You say "6 of 130 recieve the digest", but you did not say how many of
                the 130 recieve no emails at all as you suggested it was signifigant.
                Am I 6 of 130, or 6 of maybe 30, in taking the digest?

                You say "the solution to my problem is not to use the daily digest".
                Nope, that's not the problem. The "problem" as I put it, was that
                people top-post new messages on old, they get two and three deep. What
                "digests" add to that problem is that I get to see all the messages at
                once, so I see message A; followed by message B+A; followed by message
                C+B+A. Either way, digest or individually, it's a bunch of messages
                already read.

                And that's if "everyone top posts"; most do but not all. So I have to
                check to make sure it's not "B+A+C". But all that's apparently just my
                "problem". Sorry to make a fuss.

                As for my own question about "being too 20th century" about this, it
                appears that the bulk of the thread is now about how some email USED
                to be, namely proprietary email services like AOL and Compuserve.
                Funny, I find such services to be restrictive and too "locked in";
                although some services may have had a better user interface, as you
                suggest for COmpupserve. And some people like the advantages of
                proprietary email systems as places where people of like interests gather.

                I certainly enjoy like-interests email groups. But I don't enjoy the
                fact that each one has its own software support, methods, user
                interface. And each one requires membership and registration. And some
                of them are opportunities for spammers. Many of them are so special
                purpose that I can only use them for one interest, some are just
                site-specific. I appreciate from that perspective, comments about the
                old days when "one click" seemed to do all the work to download and
                sort messages from several groups under one provider.

                My own needs, and again this is just my priorities, are that I need a
                stable and reliable email service over a period of YEARS. I pay for
                such a service, and it works with both Usenet and (what used to be)
                standard Internet email services. But times change, and now in 2006
                I'm obliged to join any number of these proprietary services that can
                come and go with only notice given.

                Jim suggests I set up my email client software and possibly my email
                provider's features to segregate such email. That's apparently how
                I'll have to manage all these disparate email groups, if I plan to
                participate in any of their corresponding activities - such as MARCH
                and it's Yahoo!-based mail service. My reluctance to do that seems to
                be what I meant by "being 20th century".

                The bottom line is that I'm odd man out on this subject, so I'll say
                no more.

                Herb Johnson

                Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
                <a href="http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/"> web site</a>
                <a href="http://retrotechnology.net/herbs_stuff/"> domain mirror</a>
                my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
                if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
                "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
                S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"


                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, Jim Scheef <jscheef@...> wrote:
                >
                > Herb,
                >
                > If you are using the daily digest, you have my gratitude for editing
                out the superflous content and changing the subject line to match the
                thread. Way to go. However, using the daily digest is your choice. I
                just perused the membership list and was surprised by the number of
                people receiving no emails. About six of 130 receive the digest.
                Personally I stay away from the Yahoo Groups web site as much as
                possible - going there only to do group business (I was a wizop on
                CompuServe for ten years and my moderating habits die hard) but that's
                the only reason I can see to go there. (Ok, the pictures can be fun.)
                Thankfully most people reply at the top of each message so I see all
                the earlier stuff only when I scroll down to check a point from an
                earlier post. When everyone replies at the top, each message is a
                synopsis of the thread even if someone changed the subject line.
                >
                > So, my solution to your 'problem' is to not use the daily digest and
                to receive individual emails. Set up a filter in your email client to
                move all incoming messages from the group to a special folder. That
                way they do not clutter your inbox and are nicely organized for
                sorting on date , subject or sender. As I read thru the messages I
                delete most unless there is content to which I might want to refer
                later, like a URL. Plus I can search these messages using Yahoo's
                search. I find Yahoo email to be very convenient and with 2G of online
                storage, I can keep all the messages I want. After a couple years of
                saving lots of junk, I'm still using only 15% of the 2G.
                >
                > As to being too 20th century, I miss using Tapcis to download
                messages from the 15-20 forums I used to follow on Compuserve. One key
                stroke was all it took to connect to the service, collect all the
                waiting messages and download the new message headers from all of my
                favorite fora and log off again. That way you could review things off
                line. Remember when connect time was money? At one time CIS cost about
                $23/hour (~38¢ per minute!) at 2400bps and those were 1988 dollars.
                What the service offered was a great online community interfaced thru
                fabulous forum software with really good message threading. The
                threading was so good that the only quoting needed was a few words for
                emphasis. All of the various third-party tools, like Tapcis, used the
                threading to manage and display messages. Even when they moved to a
                web-based user interface they still had the best threading.
                Unfortuntely the by the time AOL bought CIS, the CIS forum software
                was way better than what AOL had and
                > that was not a politically tenable position. So AOL management did
                their best to kill off Compuserve to eliminate any possibility it
                might threaten the core of AOL. Ah, the good old days...
                >
                > Jim
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Herb Johnson <hjohnson@...>
                > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2006 12:11:15 PM
                > Subject: [midatlanticretro] OT: editing posts
                >
                > I'm getting confused by posts in reply
                which contain too much prior
                > posting. I have comments and my preferences below; I'd welcome any
                > comments that offer other preferences or explanations.
                >
                > Case in point is the discussion about the August trip to Boston.
                > Posted messages are two, three messages "deep" with both recent and
                > earlier information. Messages in reply add to the depth. So in my
                > daily digest of several messages, I see the same post two, three, four
                > times in succession.
                >
                > Whether I'm using the digest, or using the Yahoo! Groups access Web
                > page, I have this little window of 10, 20 lines of text. I have to
                > roll around these messages to look for clues by date stamp or >> marks
                > to sort out what is new, what I might reply to.
                >
                > My posting policy is to EDIT. Zero in on what I'm replying to and who
                > said it, top my reply with that, and respond accordingly. At the very
                > least, I remove replies to replies. Anyone who needs more context can
                > refer to their message archives, or go to the Yahoo! Groups page
                > archives. Time I take to edit, I figure, saves time for my friends in
                > reading and sorting.
                >
                > I appreciate it's tough to use email for planning and extended
                > discussion. For long term information, we have on Yahoo! a "database"
                > section that could be used quickly, maybe that "calendar" section too.
                > Of course our Web site can hold firmer plans if they are for the
                > public, unless a "members only" section is added - many of the events
                > in dicussion are members only. But it's good to have the "public" get
                > a clue as to our activites on the Web site, it's our primary
                > promotional tool.
                >
                > Some of that is policy stuff, it's up to the MARCH leadership. And all
                > of this is just part of the growing process, I have no complaints
                > overall. But as traffic and activity increases, it's harder to follow
                > the discussion quickly when I have to wade through posts
                > three-messages- deep. I think it's reasonable to consider if copying
                > all those messages is necessary. But maybe that's just me, being too
                > 20th century.
                >
                > Herb Johnson
                >
                > Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
                > <a href="http://retrotechnol ogy.com/herbs_ stuff/"> web site</a>
                > <a href="http://retrotechnol ogy.net/herbs_ stuff/"> domain mirror</a>
                > my email address: hjohnson AAT retrotechnology DOTT com
                > if no reply, try in a few days: herbjohnson ATT comcast DOTT net
                > "Herb's Stuff": old Mac, SGI, 8-inch floppy drives
                > S-100 IMSAI Altair computers, docs, by "Dr. S-100"
                >
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