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XY Tek Scope capabilities question

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  • billdeg
    I have two Tek o-scopes 5103N (with SA20N, SA21N, SB101N) and 5403 (with SA48, SA48, SB31) Am I correct that neither of these can be used as XY scopes? I
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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      I have two Tek o-scopes

      5103N (with SA20N, SA21N, SB101N)
      and
      5403 (with SA48, SA48, SB31)

      Am I correct that neither of these can be used as XY scopes?  I understand the theory of the XY mode, and the way it works, and I have concluded that my equipment is not "that way". 

      For the 5403 scope I found a 5A45 plugin on ebay that can be installed into my 5403 scope, is this an example of what I need, or is there a way to use what I already have?

      If I am correct...anyone have a 5A45 for sale?

      If I am not correct...can someone advise how with the equip described above can I use XY mode?  I want to make the pretty pictures / run spacewar on a scope.

      My tek 7313 scope's display kicked the bucket, I could trade the modules within it if anyone is interested...7A18, 7A26, 7B50

      Thanks

      Bill


    • Ray Fantini
      The old Tektronix six hundred family of XY displays is great for that stuff. This one is on EBay:
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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        The old Tektronix six hundred family of XY displays is great for that stuff. This one is on EBay:

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-603A-Bistable-Storage-X-Y-Display-Monitor-Unit-w-Option-9-PARTS-/151334678797?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item233c3ff10d

         

        Or look at :

         

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-604-Monitor-Oscilloscope-/171362223759?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item27e5fc068f

         

        Or this one, take the bottom part out and throw it away:

         

        http://www.ebay.com/itm/NORTEC-NDT-6D-EDDYSCOPE-CURRENT-OSCILLOSCOPE-TEKTRONIX-603A-STORAGE-MONITOR-/131219735302?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item1e8d4e4306

         

        Ray F

         

        From: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com [mailto:midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of billdeg
        Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:44 AM
        To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [midatlanticretro] XY Tek Scope capabilities question

         

         

        I have two Tek o-scopes

        5103N (with SA20N, SA21N, SB101N)
        and
        5403 (with SA48, SA48, SB31)

        Am I correct that neither of these can be used as XY scopes?  I understand the theory of the XY mode, and the way it works, and I have concluded that my equipment is not "that way". 

        For the 5403 scope I found a 5A45 plugin on ebay that can be installed into my 5403 scope, is this an example of what I need, or is there a way to use what I already have?

        If I am correct...anyone have a 5A45 for sale?

        If I am not correct...can someone advise how with the equip described above can I use XY mode?  I want to make the pretty pictures / run spacewar on a scope.

        My tek 7313 scope's display kicked the bucket, I could trade the modules within it if anyone is interested...7A18, 7A26, 7B50

        Thanks

        Bill

         

      • billdeg
        oops I have two Tek o-scopes ... and 5403 (with 5A48, 5A48, 5B31) 5A and 5B, not S , typo b
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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          oops
          > I have two Tek o-scopes

          > 5103N (with 5A20N, 5A21N, 5B101N)
          and
          5403 (with 5A48, 5A48, 5B31)

          5A and 5B, not "S", typo

          b


        • Bill Dromgoole
          I don t know if your scope can do x y mode but this youtube video shows how to on a capable scope. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6nGiBzGLD8 Good luck.
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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            I don't know if your scope can do x y mode but this youtube video shows how to on a capable scope.
             
             
            Good luck.
             
            BillDrom
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: billdeg
            Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:43 AM
            Subject: [midatlanticretro] XY Tek Scope capabilities question

            I have two Tek o-scopes

            5103N (with SA20N, SA21N, SB101N)
            and
            5403 (with SA48, SA48, SB31)

            Am I correct that neither of these can be used as XY scopes?  I understand the theory of the XY mode, and the way it works, and I have concluded that my equipment is not "that way". 

            For the 5403 scope I found a 5A45 plugin on ebay that can be installed into my 5403 scope, is this an example of what I need, or is there a way to use what I already have?

            If I am correct...anyone have a 5A45 for sale?

            If I am not correct...can someone advise how with the equip described above can I use XY mode?  I want to make the pretty pictures / run spacewar on a scope.

            My tek 7313 scope's display kicked the bucket, I could trade the modules within it if anyone is interested...7A18, 7A26, 7B50

            Thanks

            Bill


          • billdeg
            very useful, thanks! I needed to understand how this works.
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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              very useful, thanks!  I needed to understand how this works.
            • billdeg
              got it to work finally. My 5403 works in AMPL mode, which I have learned is XY mode. What I did not understand/know is that you can stop time. Now I
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 24, 2014
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                got it to work finally.   My 5403 works in AMPL mode, which I have learned is "XY" mode.  What I did not understand/know is that you can "stop" time.  Now I have an eternity to do this.
              • retro
                ... Tim Patterson s recollections may provide a first-hand answer. I can offer some good guesses. For years prior to the IBM PC and QDOS, Microsoft provided a
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 3, 2014
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                  Evan asks:

                  > Question for a prop deal that we're working on: what kind of computers
                  > would Microsoft have used to tweak Tim Paterson's QDOS into the MS-DOS
                  > that they licensed to IBM?

                  Tim Patterson's recollections may provide a first-hand answer. I can
                  offer some good guesses.

                  For years prior to the IBM PC and QDOS, Microsoft provided a number of
                  BASIC and assembler products for the 8080, 8085 and Z80. They likely had
                  all kinds of "computers" around. S-100 computers were the ones most
                  easily expanded to 8086/8088 work.

                  MS apparently worked on 8086/8088 products well before the IBM PC (proof
                  follows below). A number of companies produced 8086 or 8088 products,
                  again before the IBM PC. Also, Microsoft could have used emulators on
                  minicomputers or on time-shared computers - as they did to develop MITS
                  BASIC.

                  Some combination of these - and presumably some prototype IBM PC
                  provided by IBM - "could" have been used. It's obvious to me as a
                  hardware engineer, you'd need IBM PC hardware to verify reliable
                  operation of an OS for that hardware.

                  A quick Google search for "Infoworld 8088" showed me an interview of
                  Bill Godbout (Compupro CEO) from March 1980, about development of what
                  became the Compupro 8085/88 S-100 board (a dual CPU) which was the basis
                  for thousands of Compupro 8/16 systems later on. In the interview,
                  Godbout specifically states: quote

                  ".....the 8085 on board allows the user to run in a familiar
                  environment, such as CP/M [80], and then to switch over to the
                  8088 for true computational power. For example, a powerful and fast
                  8086/8088 BASIC is now available from Microsoft [which runs under the
                  8085's CP/M DOS]..."

                  Another Microsoft product, he says, "is a full-blown Macro Assembler for
                  the 8088/8086 that is written in 8085 code and runs under CP/M. That
                  package and our board make the perfect development system, to my mind."

                  My point? Microsoft had 8086/8088 resources around in use, before March
                  1980, and before IBM's PC and Seattle's QDOS. Quite possibly, Microsoft
                  had Compupro's hardware around already, for Z80/8080 development and
                  product support. Adding a Compupro pre-production 8088/8085 board would
                  be an obvious "upgrade".

                  A larger portion of the interview is now on my Web page at:

                  http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/godbout_8088.txt

                  Other early 8086 or 8088 S-100 boards I'm aware of, came from Seattle
                  Computer Products, Techmar (later known for IBM-PC compatible products),
                  ACOM Electronics (thanks to s100computers.com for this entry). The
                  Heath/Zenith Z-100 series was introduced in Sept 1982 (Infoworld, Sept
                  13) but may have been available to Microsoft in months prior.

                  It would take more research, to know what (pre-production) products were
                  available to Microsoft, when Microsoft acquired Patterson's QDOS. But
                  Tim Patterson's recollections may directly answer Evan's question.

                  I have some old notes on the subject of the 8086 and S-100 at:

                  http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_8086.html

                  Herb Johnson

                  --
                  Herbert R. Johnson
                  http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
                • Richard Cini
                  All ï I╣ve corresponded with Tim Paterson periodically over the years so I shot him a email to ask him about the system used for developing DOS. In case you
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 6, 2014
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                    All —

                    I’ve corresponded with Tim Paterson periodically over the years so I shot him a email to ask him about the system used for developing DOS. In case you don’t have it, here is the link to his site (http://www.patersontech.com/dos/origins-of-dos.aspx) where he has manuals for various Seattle Computer Products stuff. 

                    Anyway, I would point everyone to the 1979 ad from BYTE that lists cards available from SCP. According to Tim, his development system consisted of those cards, including a prototype of the 8086 card in that ad. What’s not shown in the ad is the SCP-500 floppy controller. If you look at the DOS 1 source code that was released on CHM, it had compilation switches for the SCP-500 card, Tarbell SD and DD cards, and Cromemco 4FDC and 16FDC cards. According to Tim, the 500 card wasn’t available at the time DOS was being developed,. But, since the compilation switch exists, it became available and was probably used at some point.

                    Once Microsoft bought QDOS, it kept the source code on its PDP-10 and the code was downloaded to an SCP machine for assembly. He also mentioned that Microsoft maintained some high-end SCP machines for many years to build some of their 16-bit tools.  Tim said, "At least one machine had a full megabyte of RAM – 16 boards of 64K each. I think this was the only machine that could link the linker, having at least 256K more RAM than any IBM compatible could.  The last I heard was in 2009, and they were still working although I don’t know if they were actively used."

                    Interesting stuff.

                    Rich 

                    --
                    Rich Cini
                    Collector of Classic Computers
                    Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator

                    From: MARCH-Post <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                    Reply-To: MARCH-Post <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Friday, October 3, 2014 at 9:26 PM
                    To: MARCH-Post <midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [midatlanticretro] early MS-DOS for IBM PC question

                     

                    Evan asks:

                    > Question for a prop deal that we're working on: what kind of computers
                    > would Microsoft have used to tweak Tim Paterson's QDOS into the MS-DOS
                    > that they licensed to IBM?

                    Tim Patterson's recollections may provide a first-hand answer. I can
                    offer some good guesses.

                    For years prior to the IBM PC and QDOS, Microsoft provided a number of
                    BASIC and assembler products for the 8080, 8085 and Z80. They likely had
                    all kinds of "computers" around. S-100 computers were the ones most
                    easily expanded to 8086/8088 work.

                    MS apparently worked on 8086/8088 products well before the IBM PC (proof
                    follows below). A number of companies produced 8086 or 8088 products,
                    again before the IBM PC. Also, Microsoft could have used emulators on
                    minicomputers or on time-shared computers - as they did to develop MITS
                    BASIC.

                    Some combination of these - and presumably some prototype IBM PC
                    provided by IBM - "could" have been used. It's obvious to me as a
                    hardware engineer, you'd need IBM PC hardware to verify reliable
                    operation of an OS for that hardware.

                    A quick Google search for "Infoworld 8088" showed me an interview of
                    Bill Godbout (Compupro CEO) from March 1980, about development of what
                    became the Compupro 8085/88 S-100 board (a dual CPU) which was the basis
                    for thousands of Compupro 8/16 systems later on. In the interview,
                    Godbout specifically states: quote

                    ".....the 8085 on board allows the user to run in a familiar
                    environment, such as CP/M [80], and then to switch over to the
                    8088 for true computational power. For example, a powerful and fast
                    8086/8088 BASIC is now available from Microsoft [which runs under the
                    8085's CP/M DOS]..."

                    Another Microsoft product, he says, "is a full-blown Macro Assembler for
                    the 8088/8086 that is written in 8085 code and runs under CP/M. That
                    package and our board make the perfect development system, to my mind."

                    My point? Microsoft had 8086/8088 resources around in use, before March
                    1980, and before IBM's PC and Seattle's QDOS. Quite possibly, Microsoft
                    had Compupro's hardware around already, for Z80/8080 development and
                    product support. Adding a Compupro pre-production 8088/8085 board would
                    be an obvious "upgrade".

                    A larger portion of the interview is now on my Web page at:

                    http://www.retrotechnology.com/dri/godbout_8088.txt

                    Other early 8086 or 8088 S-100 boards I'm aware of, came from Seattle
                    Computer Products, Techmar (later known for IBM-PC compatible products),
                    ACOM Electronics (thanks to s100computers.com for this entry). The
                    Heath/Zenith Z-100 series was introduced in Sept 1982 (Infoworld, Sept
                    13) but may have been available to Microsoft in months prior.

                    It would take more research, to know what (pre-production) products were
                    available to Microsoft, when Microsoft acquired Patterson's QDOS. But
                    Tim Patterson's recollections may directly answer Evan's question.

                    I have some old notes on the subject of the 8086 and S-100 at:

                    http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/s_8086.html

                    Herb Johnson

                    --
                    Herbert R. Johnson
                    http://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net

                  • Evan Koblentz
                    ... Very interesting! Thanks for the info. ... Very interesting! Thanks for the info.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 6, 2014
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                      >> I’ve corresponded with Tim Paterson periodically over the years so I shot him a email to ask him about the system used for developing DOS.

                      Very interesting! Thanks for the info.
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