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Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex format introduced...

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  • Mike
    The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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      The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check byte for every record.

      I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.

      Regards,
      Mike W.


      --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > > Can't seem to find it using google.
      > >
      > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Corey
      > >
      >
      > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the following
      > format:
      > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
      > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
      >
      > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
      >
      > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a copy
      > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that Intel
      > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
      > probably.
      >
      > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
      >
      > Bill
      >
    • B. Degnan
      Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel s official format was
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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        Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
        octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
        "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
        that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
        bd

        -------- Original Message --------
        > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
        > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:15 AM
        > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
        format introduced...
        >
        > The SCELBI BASIC on my site, has been recently re-assembled from source
        listings. I use Intel Hex format primarily because it includes a check
        byte for every record.
        >
        > I'm guessing that someone still may have some old docs for a Data I/O
        system 19 or earlier programmer. Data I/O supported intel hex from way
        back, but exactly how far back might be hard to determine.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Mike W.
        >
        >
        > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Can't seem to find it using google.
        > > >
        > > > Anyone have an idea? What year for the first 8 bit format?
        > > >
        > > > Thanks,
        > > > Corey
        > > >
        > >
        > > The 1975 custom ROM order form requires ASR 33 tapes be in the
        following
        > > format:
        > > Start character B followed by 8 data characters and end with F.
        > > BPPPNNNNNFBNNNNNNPPF ...
        > >
        > > not intel HEX format. But elsewhere -
        > >
        > > SCELBI Basic was in Intel HEX format, or at least Mike Willigal has a
        copy
        > > in this format. The ISIS system used Intel HEX format, I assume that
        Intel
        > > HEX appeared in 1974-75 on the 8008. Before the S1 / 6800 format
        > > probably.
        > >
        > > http://compusaur.com/Mark8files/as8.html
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • B. Degnan
        ... hex format introduced... ... I should clarify - The Intel manual s format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was 029 punched card format. The alternative is a
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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          -------- Original Message --------
          > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
          > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
          > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
          hex format introduced...
          >
          > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
          > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
          > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
          > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
          > bd
          >

          I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
          029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
          BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
          the ePROM.

          bd
        • Mike
          Yes, all classical 8008 code that I ve seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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            Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance, the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data bytes.

            regards,
            Mike W.

            --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > -------- Original Message --------
            > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
            > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
            > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel
            > hex format introduced...
            > >
            > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
            > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
            > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and alternatively
            > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc format.
            > > bd
            > >
            >
            > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
            > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
            > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
            > the ePROM.
            >
            > bd
            >
          • B. Degnan
            My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel Hex format
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 17, 2013
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              My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
              homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
              Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
              probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
              probably wanted to.
              bd

              -------- Original Message --------
              > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
              > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
              > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
              format introduced...
              >
              > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
              octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
              the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
              time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
              bytes.
              >
              > regards,
              > Mike W.
              >
              > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
              wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -------- Original Message --------
              > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...>
              > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
              > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
              intel
              > > hex format introduced...
              > > >
              > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in

              > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
              > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
              alternatively
              > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
              format.
              > > > bd
              > > >
              > >
              > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
              was
              > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
              > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
              for
              > > the ePROM.
              > >
              > > bd
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • s100doctor
              ... MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User s Manual - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing All references are to BNPF format, none
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
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                --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                >

                > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs was
                > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total for
                > the ePROM.
                >

                "MCS-8 Microcomputer Set, 8008 8-bit Parallel Central Processor Unit, User's Manual" - Nov 1973 rev 4 2nd printing

                All references are to BNPF format, none to any hex format, for paper tapes for either software or PROMs. That's likely what Bill is referring to above. Bill's n's are either P for a high or N for a low, what we would call today 1 and 0 respectively.

                from the "Intellec 8/MOD 80 Operator's Manual - preliminary edition" - June 1974

                Appendix D- - Hexadecimal program tape format - quote-

                The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system is a modified memory image, blocked into discrete records. Each record contains record length, record type, memory address, and check sum information in addition to data. A frame by frame description is as
                follows: - end quote

                the description is the Intel Hex Record format of
                :NNAAAATTDDDDDD...CC as described elsewhere. ROM monitor commands are described elsewhere in the manual, to read or write either BNPF or "hexadecimal format" paper tapes.

                I may have more to say about this on my Web site in the future.

                Herb Johnson
                retrotechnology.com
              • s100doctor
                ... Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That s the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 23, 2013
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                  --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "s100doctor" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                  >

                  > The hexadecimal tape format used by the Itellec 8 system...

                  Specifically the Intellec 8/MOD 80 system. That's the Intellec 8008 system modified to an 8080 CPU and 8080-based ROM monitor. The manual says zero about 8008's.

                  Herb
                • DougCrawford
                  ... I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also. I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I m sure he could have told us, as I just read
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 30, 2013
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                    --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My instinct is that early 8008/8080 used the motorola S format tapes in
                    > homebrew environments, while Intel was switching over to their own Intel
                    > Hex format tapes to replace the punchcard format they had been using. They
                    > probably could not use the motorola format for legal reasons, but they
                    > probably wanted to.
                    > bd
                    >
                    > -------- Original Message --------
                    > > From: "Mike" <mike@...>
                    > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:37 AM
                    > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the intel hex
                    > format introduced...
                    > >
                    > > Yes, all classical 8008 code that I've seen, is displayed to the user in
                    > octal. However when it comes to I/O, things are different. For instance,
                    > the SCELBI tape interface is designed to read and write a 4bit nibbles at a
                    > time. All the TTY interface code that I've seen is dealing with 8 bit data
                    > bytes.
                    > >
                    > > regards,
                    > > Mike W.
                    > >
                    > > --- In midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com, "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -------- Original Message --------
                    > > > > From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg@>
                    > > > > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 8:59 AM
                    > > > > To: midatlanticretro@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: re: [midatlanticretro] Re: Ok historians. When was the
                    > intel
                    > > > hex format introduced...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Other than yours, any 8008 code I have ever seen pre 1976 has been in
                    >
                    > > > > octal, but not sure what the papertape format would be, but Intel's
                    > > > > "official" format was actually IBM 029 punched cards, and
                    > alternatively
                    > > > > that simple papertape format with the BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF, etc
                    > format.
                    > > > > bd
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I should clarify - The Intel manual's format in 1975, for ordering ROMs
                    > was
                    > > > 029 punched card format. The alternative is a papertape with the
                    > > > BnnnnnnnnFBnnnnnnnnF format, containing the entire 1024 bytes in total
                    > for
                    > > > the ePROM.
                    > > >
                    > > > bd
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >

                    I was thinking it might be tied to the Intellec development also.
                    I sure wish Gary Kildall was still around; I'm sure he could have told us, as I just read he was working with Intel as they developed
                    the 4004 on forward.
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